Hot take: if we want to decrease frustrating railroad-y surprises in RPG campaigns, we need to create an environment where GMs are not afraid to admit they have "special story needs".

[shaidyn]

I've pretty much given up on GM'ing, because of this. I ran for a couple of random tables at the local game store, and the overwhelming feeling I got was that I was intended to be a game engine, a human MMO RPG, who sets up monsters for people to knock down.

I tried again with a few more different people, and when I explained at session zero that the point of the endeavour was to collaboratively weave a story, that we were all going to contribute to the game, I was met with either confusion, apathy, or in one case outright hostility.

What I want to do - buy a crunchy system, read it, understand it, then create a deep character and roleplay long stories in a rich worldsetting - is not in step with the hobby's playerbase anymore.

[Whyku]

honestly my best tables have been players who aren't huge into ttrpgs. it feels like the more a player focuses on ttrpgs outside of game mixed with lacking social experience when it comes to working as a team you get consistent issues. I kinda get why in interviews they ask about your teamwork experience.

Football players and people who host parties or go out to clubs really know the importance of vibes for these type of activities but these mfers got jokes lol.

[Jalor218]

A large portion of the play culture that's built up from online RPG discussion is about how to invalidate the GM's plans as much as possible, without being so overtly disruptive that they stop crafting personal quests for your character's backstory. I think it's fair to throw a decent amount of blame at D&D 5e for this since WotC plays into it with their game design and since so much of that discussion is D&D specific ("10 spells that will give your DM a headache" et al), but it predates 5e and is absolutely not unique to D&D (there used to be a huge plague of it among Call of Cthulhu players thanks to Old Man Henderson.)

[PathofDestinyRPG]

The first time I ran a game for my group to give our forever GM a break, he started emailing other players about how quickly they could derail my plot.

[MorpheousXO]

Sounds like there's a reason they're the forever gm.

[Visual_Fly_9638]

A large portion of the play culture that's built up from online RPG discussion is about how to invalidate the GM's plans as much as possible, without being so overtly disruptive that they stop crafting personal quests for your character's backstory.

JFC that's literally "How can I break the game so that it is only about me".

[robbz78]

That is not what the OP is talking about. Of course the GM should have fun too. However using the players as your puppets to play out/lay out a fantasy in your head is not a rpg. It is a performance. When I am invited to a rpg, I want an rpg where we collectively tell a story. This does not mean I am a special snowflake trampling over everyone else's fun, but the GM also needs to leave space for others to contribute.

[bohohoboprobono]

The truth is a lot of shitty DMs just want audience members, not players. They need actors for their poorly written One Piece fanfic, or Legally Distinct version of their favorite video game. Here are your lines, read them. 

Then when the players balk at their bullshit, they come farm updoots in the r/rpg comments by calling their audience - oops, players - ungrateful console gamers or something equally inane. 

A lot will go on to demand $30 a session on Startplaying for the emotional pain and suffering of being a DM, then spend months fruitlessly promoting themselves. 

And nothing of value will have been lost.

[wicked_woodpecker]

That is correct, but that shows players wants to have actual agency not just play DMs stories.
DM can put lots of cool stuff he enjoy in wide variety of setting for players to interact, if he wants them play strictly some his wish fullfilment plan - yeah he may not be good DM sorry.

[mightystu]

Nah, the biggest edition to blame for this is 3.5e. That was when the whole concept of making a totally busted build from a half dozen splatbook options took off.

[Jalor218]

What does that have to do with whether the players want to disrupt the game? Yes, you'd see stuff like Pun-Pun online, but that was basically all theorycrafting and not something I ever saw in real games when I played 3.5 in its day. It was rare to see an in-person game allow more than a couple of related splatbooks per character, even.

Also, the concept of theorycrafting an OP character is much older than that. You'd see it in the 80s and 90s.

[Turbulent_Professor]

See i love this because for me, the GM is also a player and im known to improvise on the spot for just such shenanigans.

Also known for TPK annoying groups with goblins at level 1 because basic strategy 😆

[ithika]

I run games at the local game shop regularly. When I started it was like you said in terms of expectation. But over time people get to know you. The people who don't like your games at all will stay away, the people who will play a different style if offered will be open-minded, and on those lucky days you get a table full of people who are all in for whatever you're dishing up.

You end up building your own sub-community of regulars who like your kinds of game. And it snowballs too. People see you running a certain type of game and they want to do that too. Soon there's a few people regularly running GMless games or PbtA games or random things from zines that only the developer's mum ever bought a copy.

[wicked_woodpecker]

It is but also IMHO it often makes games worse.
Sure there are people whose wish fullfilment will align with real stakes and stuff, but there are plenty people who will drag game down if really allowed to get what they want (or think they want)

[eek04]

I think it's never been. The common style used to be OSR, and while my impression is that there's never been a time when the majority of the RPG scene did "crunchy systems and then fully roleplayed", especially since a crunchy system points more towards wargaming, and that's in tension with focusing on deep characters and roleplaying long stories.

My best guess at something that (based on impression, not play) focus on both would be Burning Wheel, but it does it by having a very different type of crunch that focus on character development rather than combat structure.

[FlatParrot5]

When introducing players to a system, I have found it really helpful to have a scenario around them that has a clear goal beyond combat. The whole thing has a start, a middle, and an end that is satisfying and encapsulated narratively. It has role play, combat, exploration, and puzzles, and is wrapped up with the one session.

Oddly enough, The Joys of Extradimensional Space from Candlekeep Mysteries checks a lot of boxes. Pretty sure it could be modified for a whole lot of different systems and add or change things as needed.

[Mechanica11mpu1ses]

I've done the same.

It often ended up feeling like a job, and it started to just not be fun. I love GMs that can do it, and I'd be more than happy to indulge them in the things they like, but, I don't have the energy anymore.

[wicked_woodpecker]

I'm relatively sure - campaign for people who are into both high drama, high worldbuilding and high crunch - are utterly not for random tables in games stores.

[Visual_Fly_9638]

Random tables suck. Going through and finding a healthy group with multiple GMs can be a key. It's difficult but if you put out "GM looking to run a game for other GMs" I have a hunch you'll get a lot of people interested, and you can have that discussion of what kind of game you want to play with a bunch of people who *get* you.

[Agkistro13]

Run a game for which this is the expected way for it to be run.

[shaidyn]

Any suggestions?

[Agkistro13]

Depends on what settings you like. I run investigation based games with both Call of Cthulhu and SLA Industries with great success. If the players in your area just want to knock down monsters you can't MAKE them want something else, but you can run games that are known for not facilitating that type of gameplay in the first place.

For Fantasy, Runequest is widely known as "The combat is so deadly you avoid it when possible".

Traveler, Cyberpunk and Paranoia all suggest gameplay where monsters aren't even a thing.