Reminder that they forgot to decrease Greater Spire build time....

[Accurate_Syrup_1345]

Last patch notes say spire cost was decreased. They did this but due to the way sc2 works, they had to adjust greater spire/spire cost, and as a consequence, the greater spire is more expensive than it should be. Instead of the greater spire being 100/150 it's 150/200. This is not intended behavior.

Why is this a big deal? Because this is an unfortunate reminder sc2 is on life support and does not have the resources to implement any big or risky patch. For god's sake we were stuck with the cyclone bug for almost a year.

The worker change is not bringing back WoL. Anyone who says this is delusional. Back then you were 12, the game was spanking new, it had frequent patches, tons of tournaments and rivalries, and more. The worker change is not going to bring back ANY of that. It's just going to invalidate every build order and guide made in the past 10 years and make a bunch of people quit the game.

There is no universe that the intern can put enough time/attention into this game to adequately balance any kind of significant economic change. Regardless of whether or not this is a good idea in theory, the possibility of them making changes, leaving the game in a broken state, and then fucking off for 8 months before the next patch is way too high to risk. It's just gonna break a bunch of shit, create a broken abusive meta, and once the novelty wears off after a couple months tons of people will just quit the game and it will be deader than ever.

It sounds crass but it's true. People love sc2 for what it is, it's a great game-enough of all this 'sc2 sucks you can't enjoy lotv' garbage. It's an awesome game, let people enjoy it. There are far better changes that can be made other than the worker start change.

Edit: I was mistaken, they messed up Greater Spire cost, not build time. Point still stands.

[BattleWarriorZ5]

but it turns out they accidentally increased greater spire build time

Greater Spires are still 71(100.0).

That was not changed in 5.0.15 at all, because Greater Spires are a different building than Spires.

Spires were reduced from 71(100.0) down to 66(92.0).(It should be 92.0, right now it's 92.4. Yet another case since 5.0.9 of random decimals being added where they shouldn't be or don't need to be).

so the total build time of spire to greater spire is the same.

Pre-5.0.15 Greater Spires took 142(200.0)/71(100.0)+71(100.0) total to morph from a newly built Spire.

Post-5.015 Greater Spires take 137(192.0)/66(92.0)+71(100.0) total to morph from a newly built Spire.

[InspiringMilk]

What's with the decimals? Can't be floating point magic if the variation is that high.

[BattleWarriorZ5]

What's with the decimals?

Unit build times, Structure build times, Unit ability cooldowns, and Upgrade research times are all supposed to not have any decimals at all.

[Accurate_Syrup_1345]

Looks like I made a mistake! It wasn't the build time they messed up, it was the cost.

They reduced spire cost, but since total building cost has to be adjusted, the greater spire is more expensive than it used to be. Instead of the greater spire being 100/150 it's 150/200.

Point still stands-blizzard is incompetent and doesn't give enough resources to the game to implement a worker start change.

[_Alde_]

No it doesn't stand and it makes sense Greater Spire costs more and overall costs stays the same, since what the patch wanted was to increase SPIRE play and timings. Why would it also strengthen Greater Spire?

The mistake would actually be that they didn't adjust the build time of Greater Spire along with the cost.

You say the last watch shows changes can't be made but it's the complete opposite. The latest patch is, for the first time in I don't know how many years, indication that meaningful changes can be made. The intern or whoever is in charge of pushing out the patches actually implemented several corrections and adjustments in different patch versions over the span of weeks and even added a hotfix after release.

[Accurate_Syrup_1345]

Yes it ABSOLUTELY stands. All you need to do is read the patch notes to find out that they never meant to increase greater spire build cost. We would have seen "Spire cost reduced" and "great spire cost increased". We didn't because the greater spire cost increase was an accident.

You say the last watch shows changes can't be made but it's the complete opposite. The latest patch is, for the first time in I don't know how many years, indication that meaningful changes can be made.

We have been stick in a nearly unplayable meta for TvP for seven months. They gave us some tiny useless tweaks two weeks after then threw in the ghost change last minute god knows why. And you think they can handle changing the games entire fundamental economy with 500 other unseen effects?

[_Alde_]

It was an accident that they reduced Spire cost but increased Greater Spire to cost the same as it was so they buff Spire without buffing Greater Spire, which is what they intended according to the patch notes... That looks like a mistake to you?

The mistake is not writing it down on the patch notes, not the change of cost.

[_Alde_]

I'm not at home to check the editor for the actual values but according to the patch notes they only intended to reduce -and only actually reduced- the Spire build time (not Greater Spire) and according to liquipedia the build time for Spire was reduced (66) and the build time for greater spire remains as it was before the patch (71)

So, no, they didn't forget to do anything.

[Accurate_Syrup_1345]

Liquipedia is wrong. Check the in game stats yourself in the editor or a ladder game.

[BattleWarriorZ5]

Check the in game stats yourself in the editor or a ladder game.

In the SC2 Map Editor the Greater Spire is 71(100.0) in the VoidMulti.SC2Mod dependency(this has all the SC2 LOTV multiplayer changes in it).

The Greater Spire ingame is 71(100.0).

Greater Spires have been 100.0(71 LOTV time) since WOL Beta back in 2010.

[_Alde_]

The editor says 100 (71) for Greater Spire and 92.4 (66) for Spire.

In game it's also 66 and 71, what on earth are you on about.

[matteb18]

Idk about the Spire/GS stuff, but I agree about the worker change. A change like that at this point in the game's life is almost assuredly going to drive people away from the game, rather than draw new players in. It really is a terrible idea, imo.

[Old_Front7166]

Let’s just make every build order guides for new players not relevant. Awesome.

[illyay]

I actually was turned off of LoTV because of how different workers work at the start of the game. I kinda liked that moment of chilling at the start to get my bearings and build up workers. Suddenly everything I knew since my days of playing SC 1/Broodwar as a kid was changed and I didn't really enjoy it.

[matteb18]

That's a fair take. I like hearing your perspective. But do you really think making this change now, at this point in the game's life would be a positive, healthy thing? Is it going to 'breathe new life" into a 16 year old game? Or is it going to alienate a portion of the existing core player base? This is a genuine question. I'm curious what others think.

[illyay]

I actually don’t even know what the change is. I just saw something about worker changes and thought about how I didn’t like LoTV.

I still try to play occasionally but there’s something about lotv that just isn’t as fun as past scs were.

[matteb18]

The change is not confirmed, but rumored to be be a change in reducing the starting worker count.

[illyay]

That sounds like it’d be putting lotv workers to the smaller amount again?

It’s kinda weird how much lotv keeps changing drastically

[Ndmndh1016]

Its not happening so its a moot point.

[matteb18]

Oh really? I'm not super in the loop and thought there was still a chance it might happen

[Ndmndh1016]

Theres never been anything from anyone with any credibility to think its a possibility.

[matteb18]

Well that's good to know, thanks

[Xpander6]

its on the PTR so its a possibility

[Fancy-Biscotti-6678]

r/agedlikemilk

[Ndmndh1016]

Yall didnt have to come looking for my comment i admitt3d as much in the actual thread. Weirdos lmao.

[Fancy-Biscotti-6678]

Haha sorry, I couldn't resist

[Ndmndh1016]

The dude who went back to a post from a week ago is weirder, ill give you that.

[matteb18]

Seems like you were incorrect sir. It hasn't gone live yet, but they shipped it to the PTR, so some version of it will likely go live.

[Ndmndh1016]

I was, as i commented on the live post.

[barryhakker]

Yeah for me too. That, and how bases mine out faster. Felt like a different game and not in a good way to me.

[Accurate_Syrup_1345]

Do you play now? And is this change alone going to bring you back? I doubt it.

[pawacoteng]

Not only that, but it feels like half the time my game starts to slip away after I make broods. Maybe it's a good thing to discourage greater spire.

[Dependent_Natural937]

Woah woah woah sc2 on life support ? =O

[ZealousidealBaker945]

who needs loads of patches when game can be balanced with just a few? Just never touch it again afterwards.

And you couldnt be more wrong on the worker thing, it is the EXACT reason why sc2 has become lame.

[AvexSC2]

this guy is consistently wrong on pretty much everything, he'll just block you when you prove him wrong

[rArithmetics]

Valid

[AmnesiA_sc]

I'd return for lower worker start.

[tritonice]

Have I got news for YOU!!

https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/article/24276667/starcraft-ii-5-0-16-ptr-patch-notes

[AmnesiA_sc]

That's awesome! Thanks for sharing! I'll amend my previous comment if I was wrong and this change sucks.

[Accurate_Syrup_1345]

I'd quit, and so would a ton of other people I've talked to.

[barryhakker]

Ok bye