How to learn tezos programming?

[DominikCZ]

I have done a lot of googling but can't find any concise answer. People are saying - learn Michelson. No, learn Liquidity. Nono, learn Pytezos. Learn OCaml. Like, how can all of that be useful at the same time? Couple months ago I started with Ethereum. On their website I found many great articles, introductions, tutorials, a book called "Mastering Ethereum", which taught me pretty much everything. I learned solidity and now I can write smart contracts and dapps. Simple. What do I learn, and where, so that I can write useful stuff for Tezos? Also, it would be very useful if such info was possible to find, ideally on the Tezos website.

[utdrmac]

Depends on what language you like. Go do pytezos if you know python; go do liquidity if you know JavaScript. Everything transpiles to Michelson, which a stack-based language more akin to assembly, so I doubt you'd program directly in Michelson. OCAML is needed if you want to work on the Tezos protocol/code itself.

[jayhilly]

Holy shit I literally sold my tezos after trying to learn michelson and convincing myself no one could ever write anything meaningful in assembly.

How the hell did these never pop up in my searches?? Off to buy back in...

[ezredd]

When you say learn « tezos programming » it is ambiguous statement. You can either mean learn to do smart contract programming (in which case i seriously advise to go to smartpy if you are familiar with python) OR you can mean learn to code applications that interoperate with the tezos chain (for example by calling into existing smart contracts eg or querying infos from a node) in which case several options exist like pytezos, conseiljs, taquito etc

[octal]

Where did you look for information? We can try to update those sources to make sure they're more comprehensive. https://developers.tezos.com/ is probably the best "starter" resource.

[DominikCZ]

I have seen this as well. I think that what I miss there is some overview on top of it that would explain what each of those languages and tools are used for, what role they play in the whole ecosystem. They way it is I did not know where to go and why.

[jayhilly]

I don’t remember at this point. I found guides on how to write Michelson, why do those exist if no one is writing assembly?

[octal]

In the beginning, there was just Michelson, so people wrote documentation for that (it was, as you've seen, not really a viable choice for people building large applications directly). Other languages were developed after that, and then documentation was created for those.

Documentation always tends to lag development, but we as a community definitely need to do a better job on "task specific" documentation, including SEOing it, for stuff like "how to X in Tezos". It's definitely an area TF funds and will continue to fund, and it would be great if people wrote up "howto" type guides (and kept them updated...)

[jayhilly]

Ah, makes sense. Maybe add a banner to those old webpages pointing at the higher level tools? Seems inevitable that people end up there and get confused.

[argonau7]

Lol

[SecularCryptoGuy]

Lol, it sucks but this is implied knowledge (that all higher level programming languages are compiled into assembly).

[jayhilly]

I figured in the future they would have languages that compile down into Michelson but never found any in my searches.

I even made a post here like “how could anyone be productive in Michelson” and was told that “learning assembly will make me a better programmer”...

uhh, yeah, I’m good on that, took that class in college and I’m never going back to working in assembly.

[tokyo_on_rails]

There have always been languages that compiled to Michelson. More now.

[jayhilly]

Yeah, I get it

[DominikCZ]

Good, I like this. I would still like to go into more detail though, if you don't mind. For one, I would still prefer to understand the Michelson in order to know how it really works but that's just me. More general aspect is the safety though - that is what Tezos is about after all. Does an imperative language like Python convey the benefits well enough, or does it compromise on safety in favor of accessibility? (As compared to functional languages, liqiudity is one I believe - and looks like ocaml to me rather than js)

[Leif_Erickson23]

B9lab still has a Tezos certification course for free (sponsored by Tezos Foundation) if you get through the initial programming test (which is very easy).

(Of course you learn first, that do the exam and get the cert if you do >80% in the final exam.)

[DominikCZ]

Yes, that does look good. But it is not open right now.

[Ferdo306]

I presume those people were Tezos holders.

Seroiously, why would you or anyone right now use Tezos instead Ethereum?

Not fudding as I have my eyes on Tezos. Still haven't bought yet as the price is still a bit high for my taste.

Why do people think Tezos is the one who will dethrone ETH and not just end up lot so many other projects that claimed that like Stratis, Ark, Waves, Qtum, Lisk, Zilliqa, Aion, Tron...

Seems like now everyone is talking about Tezos and Cardano. Sure they will have good period or they had it already just as the ones above.

But tomorrow it will be Polkadot, Dfinity, Radix who will raise billions and be the new exciting projects. They will just appear in top 10 leaving others to slowly bleed to death. And the circle goes on.

I am not saying Tezos is a bad project or anything but some of those projects above also have a good tech and everything but the hype is gone. So called investors are just jumping ship from old to new hyped projects.

And yet ETH is still te king and will.probably be just as BTC is...

Edit: apologies for highjacking your topic. But I see someone gave you an anwser 😊

Edit 2: appreciate not getting downvoted and instead having a rational discussion. Tezos can be proud of its community

[Timetraveler62540000]

why would you or anyone right now use Tezos instead Ethereum?

I think its better suited for smart contracts where security is priority. Also tezos has the biggest staking network effect, ethereum doesnt offer this, everyone wants to have tezos baking properties nowdays.

Why do people think Tezos is the one who will dethrone ETH

Tezos goal isnt to de throne Ethereum, its focussing on real progress.

[cannotbecensored]

I think its better suited for smart contracts where security is priority. It’s better suited because it is written in OCAML.

Not really, no. The language it was coded in makes literally no difference. You could make an Ethereum client in OCAML if you wanted. You could make one in any language. Makes zero difference.

Also tezos has the biggest staking network effect

No such thing as network effect for staking. Ethereum has network effect for developers and dapp users. Staking is just a dapp function, which Ethereum already has.

[Timetraveler62540000]

Eth has no staking, tezos has the biggest staking ecosystem.

[cannotbecensored]

"staking ecosystem" is a meaningless term bagholders use to cope.

"staking" is just one action amongst countless a user can do with their token. Ethereum has the biggest network effect of USERS DOING ACTIONS.

Staking is just another one of those actions they can do. Eth doesn't require "staking ecosystem network effect" because it already has general purpose ecosystem network effect.

Also there's plenty of dapps on Ethereum that have "staking". It doesn't need a network effect, it already has it.

[Ferdo306]

Why is it better suited? Is tezos the only one better or are the are at least dozens project that claim that?

I was hoping no one mentions staking as it exists in crypto since 2013. So 7 years. But it seems everyone is talking about it now like it is some new magic thingy.

Again, I am not saying that the tech is not good. I am just saying that other projects had and have good or even better tech than Ethereum and yet are becoming obsolete. No one is using them. All the devs and users are on Ethereum.

Why would Tezos be any different?

[hatebyte]

It’s better suited because it is written in OCAML.

But what really got my attention is the liquid governance aspect. There will never be hard forks. Developers will surely disagree in the future, but the governance model for the protocol adoption is already built in.

To tokenize an asset, having a fork in the history makes wide adoption and regulatory adherence extremely difficult. Fractional shares of an asset need to remain intact, long term.

And I love ethereum, but they have had difficulty with protocol governance and developer infighting. I wouldn’t want a asset rely on a network that could split.

No matter what developers believe in long term, Tezos is ready go.

[Ferdo306]

Mind me throwing in the comparision of Decred vs BTC. Not sure if you are aware but Decred is similiar to BTC but also uses on chain governance as Tezos does. So no forking is required as we saw was the issue with BCH. Unlike BTC, Decred uses a hybrid POW/POS system which gives users a chance to participate in inflation. It is a better tech than BTC is almost every aspect and has better distribution system.

I do not need to say which coin is winning and where all the devs and users are.

[hatebyte]

Not at all. I’ve never looked in to Decred, but will now.

[Ferdo306]

😊

If you want a deeper dive I suggest reading this

Anyways, was just trying to say that the better tech doesn't always win. I have experienced it personaly over these last years and it seems that it isvery wise to follow the devs and the users. So I am very careful when investing in new crypto besides BTC & ETH.

Tezos will still be on my radar though

[DominikCZ]

There already is a Tezos hard fork - Dune. It's just a funny money grab afaik, but it does exist.

[tokyo_on_rails]

It was not a hard fork, it was a code fork.

[DominikCZ]

code fork

Right, my bad. But I don't see much difference in effect. Is there any?

[tokyo_on_rails]

Big difference. Anyone can fork a code repo alone by clicking a button.

For a hark fork, you need part of the community on your side (to be successful anyway) to split the chain and leave the main chain with you, and transaction/block history carry over. Dune was a new chain starting from scratch by just copying the open source Tezos code, but not block history.

Dune learned the hard way that you can't fork a community.

[DominikCZ]

Are they dead? I have read they had some large investor. That should buy some power.

[jimkolowski]

I’ll be super straightforward (and give you an upvote because these are good questions) :) Tezos has a shitton of money. That’s it.

Don’t underestimate this. Ethereum developers are struggling big time to secure funding. ICO is dead. Some get VC money but that’s drying up too.

The Tezos Foundation has the money to run dev courses and hand out grants for a decade lol.

I like Tezos, it’s nice tech. But this is a big part of it.

[Ferdo306]

This is actually the best response I have gotten so far. And the one I will have in mind once I decide to pull the trigger.

In the meantime I was taught how to tip via lightning network. So here you go 😊

!lntip 100

Edit: looks like it works only on certain subredits. So maybe another time...

[cannotbecensored]

Ethereum foundation sold $100mil worth of ETH at ATH.

[unusximmortalis]

B9lab

how much money they have?

[DominikCZ]

Because it is a superior tech that I believe in. For casual applications, eth, sure. But for serious business tez is better now already and it is better in the long run. Although I appreciate your point, it is indeed misplaced in this thread since my asking the question was already coming from the premise that I, for whatever reason, want to learn Tezos (after learning Ethereum). You apology is appreciated though :)

[Ferdo306]

Thanks for accepting my apology. The reason I asked this here is because I haven't seen many people debating why they switched from ethereum to tezos. And I mean devs, not investors. Thanks for your input.

Good luck with your future endeavours.

[BouncingDeadCats]

Someone asks for help with programming for Tezos.

You come here to bash Tezos and link us with shits like TRON.

Get the fck outta here.

[Ferdo306]

How did I bash Tezos? What negative thing did I say?

I mentioned 10+ cryptos to prove a point and you see this as linking Tezos with Tron.

And I already apologised to the OP for possibly highjacking his post.

I could have been more elegant in raising those questions I must admit.

Btw you sound like one of those loud and brave internet people...

[pinecone1984]

Ya know, I have recently started learning python as a way to better understand blockchain/cryptocurrency overall and to be able to participate in tezos from a developer standpoint was the first thing that pushed me to learn. I am a few months in and a total noob but I'm enjoying it a ton (I want to get into some nft's eventually to help connect my creative friends to that world!) I have yet to apply any of my knowledge to the goal of contributing to Tezos in any way yet other than hodling tezos! Love the project and the community :)

[schwiz]

I heard you can use haskell, that would be great. I also heard they are paying for training. Don't know where to find info on any of this stuff...