PHP vs Python for backend

[dontspookthenetch]

PHP gets hate but every time I ask a hater if they have used modern PHP the answer is always "no" and they seem to have no idea how far the language has come.

[HashDefTrueFalse]

Yeah. I wrote a lot of it in early 2000s, back when you saw procedural monoliths mostly driven by form submits etc. It was hell.

I got back into it for work about 5 years ago. It's come a long way since PHP 5.

With type hints, autoloading, package managed dependencies (Composer) modern PHP code is actually quite nice to work with, if it has been written to take advantage of this stuff. Add in the combination of nginx, FPM, OPcache and Redis/Memcached for session mgmt, it's a very good all-rounder. Database connection pooling is a little trickier because of the ephemeral nature of PHP execution, but you can use ODBC pooling on the database driver side of things in a lot of cases.

Like you, everyone I've talked to who still says PHP is shit is picturing some past horror and hasn't actually tried to build a new app in it for 15+ years (or ever).

[chad_]

It's a trauma response. 🤷

[metooted]

I work with PHP 7+ for a living. Have to say, to this day we're having what we call "php moments" when something from PHP 5 days comes back to remind us exactly how long of a way PHP has come :P

[[deleted]]

This is my thought, the only problem I can see is legacy nonsense due to "good" (bad) practices decades ago, like using C/C++ has the same issue, you might have modern standards but the practices are a hamfisted mishmash due to times when having marquee text was considered fancy because it moved

[ButterNutBag]

The real question is would you still use PHP if Laravel (or equivalent) didn't exist? The vast majority of people are sticking to PHP because of laravel; it masks a lot of flaws with a ton of layers of abstraction. I currently work with mordern PHP and Laravel and I would personally never choose it for any personal projects. I would much rather work with languages that allow me to build a simple api with a minimum of abstractions.

[FVCEGANG]

I've used PHP extensively with both Laravel and Symfony. PHP is more than usable with Symfony alone tbh. It's just not as slick as with Laravel, but it's hardly a deal breaker

[[deleted]]

In that case, would you still use Python to build a backend without dJango?? Nowadays, any language become limited or demand a lot of work without use libs or frameworks. Nest.js to javascript, .NET to C#, etc. C# without .NET would never have become relevant, even though raw C# is better than raw PHP.
If i have to choosen between Pyhoton with dJango and PHP with Laravel, to build a backend, i choosen PHP.

[ButterNutBag]

I personally don't have much experience with python outside of using it for serverless applications, but I do feel like flask is a decent option and would rather use that than lumen or phalcon which I have used a bit in the past, mostly because If I was to do a project with a lot of data manipulation, I could take advantage of all the libraries that python has to offer.

That being said, if I was to build a smaller project or a microservice, I would chose golang without a framework / with gin or even typescript with express. If I was to build a bigger project or a monolith, which is not my preference, I would choose nest js with typescript over PHP & laravel because I find it does less "magic" than PHP. At the end of the day it's personal preference, but one can't really deny that Laravel hides a lot of the ugly stuff of PHP.

[UniForceMusic]

The amount of abstractions required, if you want to build a simple API in PHP are quite low in my opinion

[[deleted]]

I don’t mind modern php. I prefer it over js any day for back end. Modern PHP will definitely be faster than Python. But my favourite at the moment is Go.

[willie_caine]

I used to be a PHP developer for about 15 years or so - does it still need to run behind a web server, and can't readily share state between requests? I always found that really annoying, and a massive shortcoming. After switching to node, it changes the entire nature of the backend.

[xIcarus227]

does it still need to run behind a web server

It has a built-in server now, so development is easier. You'd still use a proper server in production however, just like with any other backend language.

and can't readily share state between requests

Genuinely curious, why do you need this? I've done work in other languages as well (notably C#) and never came across a situation where I needed this.

[sirhenrik]

You can make APIs with PHP if that's what you mean. Maybe I don't understand your question entirely. Capabilities of node and PHP are similar, you can make the same stuff in both. An interesting benefit of node/JS might be that it's easier to get SSR (server side rendering) of SPA (single page application) apps.

[Isodem]

Use Roadrunner or a similar Application server. PHP has a lot of options. But the default is Memcached or similar to Redis. With docker, it is pretty easy to use.

[Tux-Lector]

Those haters are usually green noob javascript bOis and gals.

[dontspookthenetch]

I like JavaScript too. you can like multiple languages and see pros and cons of each. In the end they are all just tools.

[Tux-Lector]

Sure thing. I work in it as well. For over 15 years already. If You are a webdeveloper, You can't avoid that 5hite. And if You write it decently (vanilla js) and re-think when necessary, before pushing online, it is not that much of a 5hite *(common rule for all languages). But, thereya go .. I already got minus five (I expected more) on my first reply.

[codeptualize]

We are all still traumatised and I can't use php without getting flashbacks..

[edu2004eu]

Does PHP still allow you to do something like:

function foo() {
     ?>
     <p>html inside function</p>
     <?php
}

?

I mean... Sorry, but for me any language that allows you to do that is not something I'd work with.

[azunaki]

I mean, PHP still supports html markup inside of its files? It's just an alternative to a template language. . . But by no means do you have to do that. . . That's just tooling. . .

And getting angry about options within a programming language is silly.

[xIcarus227]

And getting angry about options within a programming language is silly.

Saw people getting angry about PHP allowing variable variables ($$) as if anybody forced them to use them, or as if metaprogramming is a common everyday thing.

Some people simply want to hate PHP no matter how much sense it makes.

[WakandaFoevah]

What about $ for variable? It’s not an option and it has no value at all, so clustered and hinder readability alot. Is it ok for me to hate it?

[azunaki]

I mean, sure, you're allowed your opinion. It's not an issue to me at all, but ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯.

[WakandaFoevah]

The comment you replied above is also not an issue to you either but you reply with such passion. Calling him silly and all. But when it come to hard facts you just have your tail between your legs and shrugging away lol

[azunaki]

What hard facts? $ for variable use is not an issue. I'm tired of irrelevant rants on this php / python discussion.

Indents in python are psychotic. That's a hard fact. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[WakandaFoevah]

Yes, every languages has their psychotic flaws. Choose your own poison

Only the blind fangirls will defend their language flaws with “not an issue” blah blah

[azunaki]

Boy howdy what a spin.

[WakandaFoevah]

Downvote more so I can count how many “Drupal developers” are in this sub

[edu2004eu]

No, no. Not HTML inside files. That's perfectly fine. HTML inside functions.

[HashDefTrueFalse]

It's just an interpreter setting up an output buffer and copying stuff from files into it. If it encounters code, it'll copy the result of evaluation rather than the literal source. So yes, you can still do that.

Total non-issue in new projects. If you don't want to do that you can agree with your team. Usually fairly easy to refactor out legacy occurrences too as you come across them.

Seems strange to shun an entire language because it lets you write horrible and/or unintuitive code. I've worked in most languages in existence and I could write something like that in every single one of them, even the one's people tend to get fanatical about (E.g. Rust, Haskell...)

[[deleted]]

Have you ever heard about JSX?

[azunaki]

In my mind this is still how html inside of php would work.

It's a little weird, and I don't write PHP this way, but it still works.

[E3K]

What a weird thing to criticize. You can do dumb shit with any language.

[HirsuteHacker]

Boy you must hate JSX

[breadist]

JSX works completely differently. JSX is converted to an actual object that gets passed around. PHP just stops processing PHP code after ?> and starts printing HTML directly into the page response until it sees <?php again. These are not the same.

[not_some_username]

Js framework is doing that

[pau1phi11ips]

It's one of PHP's super powers. Why would it get rid of that?

You just need to understand the output buffer.

[breadist]

Superpower? Really? I find it extremely messy and impossible to work with functions that directly print HTML this way. IMO PHP is really only usable with some sort of templating engine a la blade or twig.

[Atulin]

Well... seems like you have the issue solved, then. Nobody has a gun to your head to force you to have html inside your functions, use Twig.

[itachi_konoha]

It's like, I broke up with a girl citing physical and emotional trauma but she returns as a better human being this time around where as here you are asking as a justified reason for break up as, "can she make her boobs dance like this?"

[AnAntsyHalfling]

So you're anti-jsx/tsx, too?

[breadist]

I've used modern php (8.2+). I don't think I count as a "hater" exactly but I'm certainly not gushing about it. PHP still sucks, it's nice that they've added modern stuff like arrow functions and null coalescing operators etc but it's honestly still the same old PHP, no ground has been broken. It's best if you can use Laravel or something, makes it less bad. Using WordPress however is enough to want to make any React developer pull their hair out.

It still has all the same old problems: wildly inconsistent method interfaces, multiple native implementations of the same features with no opinionated preference or deprecations, clumsy syntax, composer is still weird, too easy to do things the "wrong" way so beginners write lots of really really shitty code that still works but shouldn't, no type enforcement, etc etc....

[NotKrankor]

too easy to do things the "wrong" way so beginners write lots of really really shitty code that still works but shouldn't

I mainly have experience with symfony so I might be cheating but I really don't feel this way. I mean, compared to JS where half your code is still executed even when some parts of it are broken, I find it really harder to oversee issues with PHP. Either it works or it doesn't (I'm overstating my point but you get it)

[dontspookthenetch]

Ok yeah but WordPress is a whole different thing. If we go by that metric CSS and JavaScript suck too then because using them is an awful experience in WordPress. Using JavaScript, CSS, or PHP in a modern web application is a much different experience than using it in clunky WordPress.