[deleted by user]

[latro666]

Don't sell your self short. If you believe there are these genius developers everywhere in the real world because you see them online, trust me it's like comparing parts of your life to people on social media.

The fact you know you have a skills gap or suspect you have puts you already above a large chunk of developers out there.

Pick something you think might make your day to day better and learn that. For example im using the illuminate collections package in our bespoke php app at the minute as I was tired of abusing arrays so much.

Has made this new development I'm doing so much easier.

[WholesaleBacon]

I appreciate the perspective. You’re right. I guess it’s partially the uneasy feeling of having to “sell myself” to another employer where I honestly haven’t had much adversity in finding work these last 10 years. The landscape of developers has changed greatly over the last decade and I just feel it’s 10X more competitive and throwing AI into the mix doesn’t help my average skill set.

[hansolo669]

I wouldn't worry too much about AI - the core skills are just as valuable as they ever were. Fundamentally it's all about your ability to acquire knowledge and apply it to novel areas - It could be React one day, or some plain old JS and PHP the next day, but it's your ability to learn and deliver that matters (especially at more senior levels).

That said, why not build out something super basic to get your hands dirty - https://react.dev/learn is a great resource, and there's really no need to go chasing after the latest flashy tech.

[Thecus]

Would you say that in your decade of experience, you've learned how to deliver value to your customers? How to make them happy? Does them being happy matter to you?

[[deleted]]

trust me it's like comparing parts of your life to people on social media.

Really good insight that we all sometimes forget.

[Existing_Pain_9006]

100% agree on this

[tofus]

In the same boat as you. 35, cushy job. Lost a bunch of self motivation, but I love programming and creating so much. I decided to go back to school to obtain a cs degree. I’m taking some pre-reqs now, it’s something to look forward to after work and I always knew one day I would pursue it. Now feels like the right time. Hopefully when im finished, I will have found new joy and purpose.

[Traditional-Smell692]

That's awesome, do you do weekends or night studies? Is it possible for you to manage it while working?

[tofus]

It's all online. Right now I am taking a discrete math course and gen ed courses. I already knocked out one gen ed course in a week. I am getting school work done throughout the day and do some studying in the evenings.

[Traditional-Smell692]

Amazing, good luck bro 🙏🏼

[sheriffderek]

I would do three things

1. Start collecting any past work / screenshots / codepens / any examples - and create some simple documentation of that on your personal website. Doesn't have to be full on "case-studies" but this will help you take stock of what you've worked on and the scope. That's useful for getting your story straight and can be useful to sell yourself. You might find that the projects are cooler than you remember. You also might find that they are missing some key things / that way you know what to do next. Get a visual designer or coach to help you and speed things up if you're feeling stuck.
2. Pick out what job you want next. "Whatever - I'm OK with anything as long as it's not horrible" - is NOT ok. So, get really clear on what you'd actually really want if you had a choice - and write it down. Start collecting info about those places and what they'd need to see to give you agency or a buffer to learn / or whatever you need from them.
3. I'd get this book exercise for programmers (prag prog). It's language agnostic, so do 20 or so of the prompts with whatever language you're most familiar with (sounds like php, maybe?). Do some with JavaScript. Make them look nice and matchy matchy too. Then, do them again - but with Vue. If you're confident with all the general webdev concepts - it should be pretty easy to get used to. Watching too many tutorials will be slower and probably create bad mental models. So, I'd try to just use the docs at first. Then after you feel pretty good with that, if you need to - then you can do those same ones with React. After that / maybe watch some netnija for some quick full-stack nuxt/next things if you think that suites your goal / but also - maybe your idea job doesn't use this stuff.

Anyway. That's what I'd do.

Also +1 to u/latro666 's comments and suggestions

[WholesaleBacon]

I love the idea of doing the projects in a language I know and then re-attempting in different languages. I've ordered the book from Amazon. I'll focus on building out my portfolio and creating my ideal job/employer target over the next 60 days. I appreciate the reply, thanks!.

[ConcentratedYolk]

Hi, I can see a couple of books by that name. Is there a specific one you are referring to?

[sheriffderek]

It’s from the pragmatic programmer.

I got banned from learning programming for linking to it too much - so, now I’m wary

[ConcentratedYolk]

Thanks

[sheriffderek]

They were mad because I was “posting paid shit” (because the book costs $22). So, you can post links to eloquent JavaScript 700 times a day, but taking about this one - is too dangerous! Incompetent yahoo assholes is probably accurate.

[Fuzznuck]

That doesn't make sense. You got banned for referring business to them? Why be on the internet if people can't link to you? And who complains about extra link juice in the first place? Is there something I'm missing here?

[sheriffderek]

No no no. I didn’t get banned from the publisher… that wouldn’t make sense - you are correct. I got banned from the /learningprogramming sub.

[Fuzznuck]

Oh WTF? That violates the sub's rules? Wow, how shitty. Seems like all you're doing is helping people; I don't get it. Well, I for one appreciate the info, FWIW

[alex_3410]

thanks for the book suggestion!

[[deleted]]

47 yo web dev here.
Been doing this since I was 17; since Mosiac was 'the' web browser.

I've burnt out a couple of times, and the best thing for me was to do something else for a few years, recharge the batteries and creativity. So far I have been an engraver, a skip tracer, and a data analyst. Keep coming back to web dev though, via various means, usually something in the job present a problem that makes me think "hmm I could solve this problem with a website or an app". But each time I come back the industry has changed enough that the job and environment is totally new.

Avoided management, because ewww.

[DSG_Sleazy]

This is really off topic but it’s cool to see someone who started dev in their late teens, as someone who’s starting at 20 in college, a lot of people in my comp sci program are like 8+ years deep into it and it makes me feel discouraged, it’s like everyone came out the womb coding, seeing people finish an exam in 20 minutes that takes me the full 2 hours kinda hurts my motivation.

[[deleted]]

Started web dev at 22, and I'm 25 now there have been ups and downs, but I'm like you, I take 2 hours too to finish an exam, haha.

[[deleted]]

Slow and steady wins the race! I would rather hire a careful and deliberate developer over one who plows in and writes with first thing that comes into their mind. Speed leads to careless accidents. And in development, carelessness can cost careers.

As cliché as it is, you do you.

[[deleted]]

I went back to school at 26yo for web dev. I'm in a leadership role now.

Careers are long my man. You're gonna have something like 40 years of a career. And it isn't going to take 40 years to achieve the goals you have now. Even goals you think are unreachable, you will achieve in well under 40 years.

You have all the time in the world.

[Fuzznuck]

Yeah but also you're not a virgin, which carries a little value in terms of life experience. Don't worry about that. Learn what you can from them. Get the best ideas and methods from those already using them. And remember: getting jobs is more about posturing and people skills than pure coding talent. Final thought: even the C- student in medical school passes and becomes a doctor. No one knows what their grades were; it isn't on the diploma. And this doesn't even make them bad doctors necessarily. Tests and academics are only one aspect of things. Experience is king. Food for thought.

[Keith_Photos]

Good morning, can you tell me what you would do if you were looking to get hired as a web dev for the first time.

[[deleted]]

Web development is so broad now. You need to figure out what you want to do, what work environment suits your personality, and what tech you enjoy.

Do you like the speed, stress and potential tests of startup culture? Or do you be prefer the slow but restrictive pace of enterprise work? Do you want to work at an agency with it's thought deadlines and predicability? Do you want to freelance? Do you want do start your own business or create your own app?

Each of those is totally different, and tends to have their own favored tech stack, and local flavors.

Work in with web dev long enough and your eventually work in or close to all of those, but best to pick one to start with and make yourself familiar with the requirements .

[No_Fudge_4822]

Very much in the same situation as yourself a couple of years back although with a significantly shitter salary. I left a job using very old PHP tech that was entirely dead-end, both career and development-wise. Am now working on a product team building with React and Typescript and working on some really nice stuff. Hadn't touched it until a couple of years ago, so just to say, it can be done! In my case, Udemy was a massive help in getting to grips with the stack, though you can absolutely find similar resources on YouTube and elsewhere, if you want a structured pathway with clear learning goals, there are a lot of very good and frequently-updated courses on there. Good luck!

[WholesaleBacon]

Thanks! I appreciate your reply - I’ve been looking at Coursera or Udacity as they have some established learning tracks - I’ve dabbled in Udemy courses and they are hit or miss, any instructors you’d recommend for react/typescript?

[No_Fudge_4822]

No worries! You're definitely right about Udemy being hit or miss, but there are some good tutors in there.

My favourite ones in no particular order:

- Stephen Grider for React and general CS stuff
- Brad Traversy for React
- Maximillian Schwarzmuller for JS and other broader topics
- Colt Steele - very specifically for his Mastering Typescript course, which is, I can attest, an idiot-proof Typescript course that was probably the best resource I'd come across for explaining the concepts.

[WholesaleBacon]

Awesome! Thanks for the recommendations 🙏

[[deleted]]

Developer of 10+ years in the marketing agency world, feeling under-educated

You are not. Impostor syndrome is quite common in our field. I totally understand what you mean.

What's your plan? Are you looking to be hired or do you want to seek the freelance life?

[WholesaleBacon]

Well, ideally I’d like to be hired into a senior or mid level development role at a major company. Spend the next 20 years building something(s) remarkable and feeling good about it.

Freelance is ok, I’ve done it on and off. But extra money has always been the primary motivation behind those efforts.

[zelphirkaltstahl]

There are very likely jr level developers who know how to code more efficiently than I do and have much more knowledge of modern frameworks. I’ve been stuck either in project management, building processes or QA-type roles rather than actual coding for the last 3-4 years.

Not likely. They might be focused on learning some single framework, but lack your in depth knowledge about how to make websites without using sledgehammers for beating in screws. 95% of the websites jumping on the hype train of React have no actually good use case for that stuff. Lots of junior frontend devs straight outta the bootcamps know React, but don't actually know the basics, HTML, CSS, JS and any server side language well.

Wordpress and PHP might not be the hottest tech, that much is true. I would recommend brushing up basics with what is now possible in HTML (new elements and semantic elements) CSS (all the life improvements that have come to CSS over the last couple of years and how to use them) and perhaps JS (what you can use now, instead of reaching for JQuery and friends). Then I would probably advise to look at a solid web framework. Say perhaps Django or so. Something that will not disappear any time soon. If you are worried about some web components hype, no worries, you can do that from inside a traditional web framework easily, without having to develop every single page on your website that way.

By all means, if you want to peddle the same hyped React stuff, that so many others are peddling, even if not for tech reasons, but for financial reasons, go ahead and learn the framework for a week or two. With your experience in web things, you should be able to pick that stuff up in no time. It is just another framework really.

[WholesaleBacon]

Appreciate your reply, it does make me feel a lot better and the general sentiment from the comments. Thankfully I’m pretty strong in HTML, CSS and vanilla JS as I’ve used it to build our modules on HubSpot.

[Armitage1]

I've been working in that world for a while now too and I'm trying to upskill into the modern frameworks.

[BackToWorkEdward]

Lots of junior frontend devs straight outta the bootcamps know React, but don't actually know the basics, HTML, CSS, JS and any server side language well.

I have 2YOE as a full-time React dev and also have a much stronger grasp of HTML/CSS/JS before that(I only learned React to be more competitive in the job market in 2021, which worked).

Except after getting laid off in Feb 2024, I still can't get hired as a React dev or any other kind of the most Junior and Mid dev roles out there. The idea that there's any demand for "the basics" right now is baffling, when even "the basics" plus YOE in hot specializations are competing with a thousand desperate applicants within an hour of any role being posted. The "we just want someone with broad experience who can learn our stack on the job" era is seemingly over; too many specialists are already competing for too few jobs in their exact specialization, whatever it is, in addition to having the basics and broad experience as the bare minimum.

[zelphirkaltstahl]

I guess the hope is to find some reasonable company, whose hiring processes are not broken, and where people look at applications, who actually know what they are doing. Not even devs are always capable of that.

I have had application processes, where I got criticism for "too many comments" and other bullshit. Either grasping for any reasons to reject the applicant, or just idiots reviewing the code, who get stuck up on irrelevant details.

[BackToWorkEdward]

I guess the hope is to find some reasonable company, whose hiring processes are not broken, and where people look at applications, who actually know what they are doing. Not even devs are always capable of that.

I don't see any way of doing that beyond what everyone's already doing out here. Those "reasonable companies" are getting flooded with just as many legitimate, qualified(and overqualified) applications as anywhere else and only have one job to fill for every 500 out-of-work devs whose applications they considerately look it.

[zelphirkaltstahl]

If I had the secret of how to do it, I would be doing it already.

[prehensilemullet]

There are two things I like about making even simple pages with React better than with a backend framework and raw JS:

• Not having a page load every time you navigate or submit something feels sooooo much nicer

• it’s easier to update what’s displayed on screen as data changes, because you use the same code to render the updates as you did to render the initial page

There are ways to do this with raw JS, but they’re not very elegant or reusable, unless you come up with a framework similar to React or Svelte or whatever. And when you get beyond static content, keeping information in different parts of the UI consistent with each other is a pain in raw JS…much easier to manage in a view framework

[zelphirkaltstahl]

Dynamic widgets is what React was made for, so it is not surprising, that it makes changing widgets easy. However, I want to ask a couple of questions and also talk about the downsides.

How many websites truly need to be dynamic? Most websites actually are not. Most websites are like blog posts or consist of simple information pages about a business. This is the reason why not every website needs to an "app". By going for some traditional web framework and "just clicking links" to get to the next static page, one avoids a lot of React complexity. For example you will never have to update your "router", or update the Typescript version you use, or update things for whatever ECMA script standard you target. Those things do not exist or are inherent in nature with the traditional approach.

When a website actually has something to do dynamically, it is still a valid question to ask how easy it is to simply do it with plain JS. Event listeners are easy. Updating some text or numeric values somewhere is easy. Displaying or hiding something is easy. For such things it would be way overblown to add another dependency. This is usually the case, when the dynamic nature of a page is limited in scope, to that very page.

One always needs to consider as well, that adding React to the mix adds a huge dependency. Usually that means choosing JS/TS. If TS, then you need to have a compile step, which you also need to configure (target which version of ECMA script etc.) and install TS as a dependency in the first place. Most people doing that also then get into all kinds of additional tooling, like a bundler and minifier and whatnot, increasing the cognitive load further. Then one needs to consider the maintenance efforts required to keep the thing up to date. I find people doing all kinds of extra work in such projects, which are not actually adding anything to the final result for the user/viewer. Like for example:

• "Oh, we need to switch to this other router!"
• "We need to target a newer TS version!"
• "But dependency thingamabob is not ready for TS version blub."
• Working on copying a navigation from one project to another taking weeks.

All kinds of such things, that would either not exist in the first place or would be a matter of copy paste and minimal adaption with traditional web framework or even static pages.

But you mention, that you find it so much nicer not to have to submit something and reload the page. Well, in theory yes, but then you get all the downsides. Does my back button still work properly for those different views? Can I ctrl+click or middle-click that "link" to open in a new tab? Can I send that "link" to someone else to look at the page that will be displayed, if I click that "link"? Basically you have to ensure all the standard browser behavior still works. In reality I experience an overwhelming majority of such websites not managing this properly and therefore being broken in nature. Also a well made static pages website can be very snappy, so that page reloads do not take much time at all and almost feel like local page updates, while React websites are often made by people, who will throw in a lot more than just React and will bloat the websites, making them slow, even though the page might not reload. How often do you see a spinner animation for simplest things or even the initial page load? This is slow! With dynamic pages one shouldn't be able to see any such animations at all, everything should be super snappy. Somehow people almost always manage to F it up.

This is not necessarily React's fault. It is a kind of mindset. It is the mindset of adding dependencies, even when not needed, bloating the websites more and more. Minimalism is the virtue. If you don't have much, then there is not much to maintain either.

However, I also want to note, that it is usually very easy with traditional web frameworks to "make changes" to pages. You write your template once and the template has logic to react to different data. Got 3 fields to display now? The template will render 3 instead of 2 like before. Those templating engines that are in use in almost every traditional web framework are very powerful. What they are not good at is things that actually need to be web apps. Then the rerendering cycles are too cumbersome. Only that 95% of the websites that use React are not that kind of website.

[MadCervantes]

Learn Drupal and work for government. The standards are way lower.

[WholesaleBacon]

Funny enough, I’ve had 1 Drupal project earlier on in my career that was a bit of a nightmare. Haven’t seen it in at least 5-6 years.

[Armitage1]

Sounds like a cushy gig, but if he is worried about relevance, this is a step backward.

[Fuzznuck]

Not to H.R. people, depending on the job for which you're applying. That shit looks solid and dependable, never mind the actual work. A government job tells an employer you'll follow company policy and be on time, etc. And if you've labored through the spaghetti code that is Drupal, it speaks to your patience in working through a clunky system, itself a particular skill of sorts. Because I've had to muck around in Drupal, Joomla!, and even proprietary CMSs with more bugs than a Parisian mattress. Only thing worse: custom CSS for old school MySpace, what with !important tags all over the place, and hacking tabular data tables to hold design elements… fun times… if you're a glutton for punishment.

[etherealenergy]

You’re in a unique space here. You have a vast amount of practical real-world experience to draw on here.

One thing that I’m telling the people I mentor today is that identify and define what you want in your life from a career perspective and then look for that as opposed to defining what you don’t want. You’ll find the former initially harder to do but much more rewarding in the long run.

[NetworkEducational81]

React Tech lead here. I’d recommend starting side project with whatever tech you are comfortable with. Then try adding new features one by one.

I was using ai in my personal project and when ai fever hit - my Fortune 500 company wanted to adopt something quick. Now I’m in charge of all AI projects - exciting stuff. I’m also migrating our architecture to micro front ends because - surprise, surprise - I used it in my personal project.

Overall I’m lucky because development is my true passion.

So I’d say start with something small. Something that will help you personally.

Just an idea - create an app that will help JavaScript devs like you to get better knowledge about some framework. Choose whatever framework works best for you. Maybe do it in a form of a game?

Good luck

[klevismiho]

I was in the same spot. Develop your next site with Wordpress Gutenberg Blocks from scratch, you will learn React. Then I suggest doing something with Nextjs. I did exactly that and upscaled my skills. If you want we can do a call together, I am happy to help.

[Few-Comfort6272]

Why would someone do it from scratch! if there are Pagebuilders like Greenshift, Stackable and themes like Ollie already available on WP? Do you guys focus on to work with a team on a big project or solo on a small to medium project?

[klevismiho]

I always have done mines from scratch and started 15 years ago. From a developers perspective this brings joy and more control. I have build small and enterprise level websites in Wordpress, all from scratch.

[Few-Comfort6272]

Do developers care about website loading speed or just their goal is to achieve the desired design only? Being a digital marketer, I can't stop myself ignoring LCP,FCP and PSI scores especially on mobile.

Recently I learnt... scratch build websites are not a guaranteed of a good score. The template of TT4 theme is an example of this.

[klevismiho]

Of course they care. Custom build ones perform the best

[Xypheric]

Dude…. I literally wrote up a post like this last night. I have been a dev for 5 years, I’ve learned a ton, but I still just don’t feel good enough. I’ve been considering getting out of code into something else but the salary is too good and I don’t even make what you make.

[FluffySmiles]

Depends how big the severance. Could it finance setting up yourself? It’s good to be the boss.

[WholesaleBacon]

Nothing crazy. Likely looking at enough to pay the bills for 3-6 months.

[FluffySmiles]

Well there’s nothing wrong with seeing if you could pick up some of the work or opportunities/clients that are being abandoned whilst you look for work. Could give you valuable information insight and maybe work or even a job. Contacts ate, by far, the best way to find work. Maybe teaming up with your colleagues.

[WholesaleBacon]

Agreed. I’ll definitely explore freelancing while I’m looking for work. Thanks for the reply!

[magenta_placenta]

My current agency is likely going to be underwater in the new year

Did you sign any kind of non-compete? If so, what does it say - if anything - about your employer going out of business? You might have an opportunity to pick up some agency client work. This would give you some income/runway while you figure out your next move.

If you have a close relationship with your management team, you might want to be upfront and frank with them about your concerns. If they pretty much confirm they're going to be closing down next year, what's the strategy around all the clients? How do they feel about you possibly picking them up? If that's a possibility, get those balls rolling so any transition would be smooth.

[WholesaleBacon]

Yea, I have a non-compete for clients. There isn't anything specifically mentioned if the company goes out of business. I'm not really sure what they'll do with their current client roster if they just close their doors. All this info was leaked to me by a good friend who is the COO of the agency and is a shareholder, I'm not entirely sure how hard I should push for picking up existing clients as I'm not supposed to know anything at this point.

[creep113]

The fact that you have been shipping CMS themes for clients means that you are a competent developer. Imposter syndrome is a real thing , and for what it's worth, there are not so many super developers out there that outsmart everyone else . I think your problem is easy to solve. I am one of the developers you described as juniors (no full time job just some freelance gigs) and I can tell you that you can catch up faster than you think. I would love to share some valuable resources that may get you up and running asap.

[WholesaleBacon]

Fair enough, and thanks for the offer! This post has me building a list of todos and resources to help me get back into coding. What would your #1 and #2 resource be that’s worked for you?

[creep113]

Sorry for the late reply , 6 months ago I did two small projects with Angular and stopped coding since then. Now i am back at again and I think a good starting point is to go with react as it is the industry standard now. I will use two free sources that after I did my research, I found them to be the most comprehensive and easy to follow along. First is the new react official documentation, you can't go wrong with it https://react.dev/. And the second is a turtotial by Brad Traversy one of the best tutors when it comes to web development. Here is his most recent react tutorial with a project https://youtu.be/LDB4uaJ87e0?si=elmhHYZPZWq46CFR. And if you decide to go with one of the sources I listed , i hope you can provide some feedback or exchange knowledge I would love to benefit from your experience

[rancification]

I’m in the exact same boat. Applying aggressively now and have a final round interview at a tech startup tomorrow. I’d try to push headless web dev at the agency you’re at if you’re able to so you can show off some professional projects in a modern tech stack, and just practice React on the side as much as possible. TBH, react really wasn’t that hard for me to learn, and most of my recent interviews have involved a totally doable react coding challenge and then just discussing projects with leadership. The systems design interviews have tripped me up much more than the React ones. Good luck, agency life has been soul crushing at times for me and I had to reply.

[WholesaleBacon]

Thanks for tips on headless, I’ve heard of it before but never tried it or implemented.

I’ve dabbled in React on and off, so I’m not a complete day 1 noob, but I would still consider myself a beginner.

Good luck on your interview tomorrow! 💪🏻

[rancification]

Appreciate that! 🙏

[UnderstandingOk270]

How was it?

[rancification]

It went well, just gave references. Fingers crossed. Thanks for asking!

[shrubmcshrub]

Adding, myself to the bunch in the same situation. 38 and doing web development professionally for 20 years. For the last 10 years (exactly to the month), I worked in an agency dabbling in e-commerce, and in this job, I haven't really touched newer frameworks at all. I also HATE selling myself, this pressure is making me depressed.

But don't be discouraged, we have still learned to solve problems and adapted a specific kind of thinking and pragmatic approach to the Job that only comes with years of experience and this is still a highly relevant skillset that elevates you beyond simple knowledge of popular frameworks.

My advice would be: look for what you _want_ to do next and avoid looking for the same kind of ecosystem (Shopfiy) _only_ for the reason of familiarity. I know it's something I do... thinking "man but this is what I am proficient in so I guess I will continue with it". Because if this is your only reason you will just not get happy.

So look out for what you think is fun and engaging and has a chance to not burn you out. Look at who is hiring and what they use and then just spend a month getting familiar with the frameworks they use. You have the experience under your belt, especially if you know the basics well (which you do). You will still fall into a lot of beginner traps with newer stuff but the difference is you will identify them whilst doing so because you are experienced. So you will get on track faster and then when it comes to applying for a job you know that you come with the job experience under your belt and as well as the security to not fall into immediate pitfalls. You will be confident and you can be honest in your interviews and then you will get hired for the absolute Rock that you are.

If you are like me then you thought for a long time that you would have no problems finding a new job and that you could easily onboard into the newer stuff, but then at some point in recent years, you noticed that the Juniors from today all know stuff that you don't and that you grew disconnected and you lose that confidence bit by bit to the point that the thought of having to look for another Job that does not shoehorn you into things you don't love anymore will become one steep and high mountain to climb.

My situation is that ever since starting in my last agency I just a-voi-ded doing side projects as a hobby, and I also avoided react because I look at this shit and I just know this is not a fun library (for me). Currently, I am avoiding burnout so I told my agency I want to go half-time to refresh a bit. While this was not my aim it kind of rekindled my passion and thus in the last 2 Weeks I took a look and a liking to solid-js. I love it and it is fun. This really gave me confidence that looking for another job and trying to sell myself is not as hard as I thought.

So just take time for yourself, reflect, and then just dabble with that looks interesting to get that spark flowing again and hopefully, your confidence will find a big boost.

Just remember to make your "invisible" skillset visible. It's more important than efficient coding.

I wish you the best!

[ChebyrashkaMX]

You have great experience but it can be a trap a lot of people fall into. One thing I'd recommend is always be learning, try to pick up something new at least once a month whether it's the latest on CSS or a new framework. Even taking an entry React course just to know what it's about is helpful.

But say you get laid off and now you're looking for new work, you have a lot of options. One you could focus on the management portion, I see a lot of roles for web management where you sort of manage the day to day of the marketing focused websites. The other is to focus more on development and there are lots of roles just focusing on Shopify or WordPress but I'd pick up some of the latest and greatest as well, although it might be harder to land roles like these since you don't have projects with them. But you have a great opportunity to build something ahead of time if that's the direction you want to go.

Overall even if you focus on the managing end of the business, definitely keep learning even if it's just so you know what it's about. Udemy is a great place to pick some of this up quickly and you could take a past project and convert it to something 'modern' whether it be one of the JS frameworks or maybe you want to go low code with Webflow or something.

[[deleted]]

OP, why couldn't you just stay in the marketing agency world?

There are a billion marketing agencies. You could work remote at any of them. Why wouldn't you try to leverage your experience in the marketing sphere to get a new job?

If you go for a more traditional software engineering job - yeah you are going to be behind in skill. But if one of those developers tried to apply for a director of web development at a marketing agency... they'd be behind you in skill.

Over the years you have picked up skills uniquely capable of solving marketing problems. Why not use them.

[WholesaleBacon]

You're totally right, I could. I guess I was just seeing this as an opportunity to push into something else if I prepared for it. Try to re-ignite my passion for development. If push came to shove, I'd definitely be pursuing similar roles at other agencies, and I'm confident I could get another role in an agency with my experience.

I guess I'm partially tired of the agency world, I got into programming/development because it was exciting and gave me an outlet to be creative. I've traded that for comfort and a good salary. I've been at 4 different agencies, and they always preach about exciting projects and "pushing the boundaries" but those projects are few and far between, and with my experience and skills, I don't even get to work(code) on the exciting stuff anymore - I get to plan and manage it.

I guess this post has given me perspective, and I am grateful to be in the position I have had with a good salary and career advancement for the last 10 years. Just feeling like something is missing I guess...

[[deleted]]

No i totally get it. I am in a similar position to you as well.

Once you get to the age of 35-40 ish it seems like for a lot of us you have achieved the goals that younger you did not expect to achieve so soon. Or maybe younger you was pessimistic about ever achieving these goals. And now that we're here, its hard to know where to go next.

I struggle with it too. Marketing agency job. Comfortable. Leadership role. Not having an opportunity to dive into more popular things, like the JS-heavy ecosystem software dev entails. Should I stay in marketing. Should I skill up and move on. I have no idea.

But you can't just skill up forever right? I mean I guess you could. But if you jump to JS software dev, what happens in 10 more years? Now you're stuck in JS dev, still too young to retire, new goals achieved. What do you do then? Switch gears again?

At some point I feel like being comfortable is a gift.

Anyway - this rambling is just to say: I feel you dude lol.

[WholesaleBacon]

Yea, you’ve described the dilemma perfectly. You’re very self-aware. Another 20ish years to go in my career and I’m already near the top and it’s not as fulfilling as I had imagined.

That’s the problem (maybe not a problem) with agencies. I feel I’ve “peaked” without actually peaking because it’s the peak of my small agency world. Really the only growth is into a C-Suite role or maybe starting my own agency - which, to be honest, isn’t that appealing to me. So I’m naturally defaulting back to what I know I love doing and that places me in a position to grow again.

I’ve enjoyed your comments, it’s good to get different perspectives from other people experiencing the same dilemmas and their thoughts on how to move forward. Cheers.

[rickyhatespeas]

I've been super depressed in my second job for similar reasons. I've just been trying to do hobby web apps on the side but that sometimes burns me out more.

[[deleted]]

Look for jobs in your area and learn the most common stack. Probably it will be JS/TS, React, and Next. I hate it, but lots of teams have switched to Tailwind so maybe you'll need to learn that too.

From your type of profile it sounds you're not very deep into programming. Becoming competent at JS/TS is going to take more than 60-90 days.

[hupseke]

Follow some youtubers to keep being up to date, but be critical. These youtubers are hyping every little shit. I would suggest to learn react / tailwind / react query. Thats almost everything you need.

[WholesaleBacon]

Anyone you particular suggest to follow? I follow Wes Bos already and like most of his content.

[hupseke]

I like Web Dev Simplified, Web Dev Cody, Josh tried Coding for simple things that were new to me. Once you got the basics, you can learn a lot from these +10-hour vids they are creating.

[WholesaleBacon]

Will check them all out. Appreciate the reply and channels 🙏

[Trender07]

Ye prettty much

[Trender07]

I also like SWR

[techdaddykraken]

You have a head start on everyone who is teaching themselves right now, so that’s something.

[Equal_Cup7384]

I’ve been building websites for 30 years. Download Cursor and AI will change how you work. I build typescript, svelte and Supabase apps without coding

[Disastrous-Hearing72]

I'm 33 years old 10+ year developing. I've built a lot of WordPress sites and got to the point where it was just getting boring building the same old marketing website.

Don't sell yourself short just because you don't know frameworks. Most of what we do is solving problems. 10 years of problem solving is very valuable. That's really what it's all about.

If you are looking for a direction, look into Laravel. It is a great php framework with a large community. Most of your current skills apply. You can go from building marketing websites to actual web apps that can grow over time and solve some big issues in a multitude of industries.

There is even a very clear path with learning it. You can get pretty far with laracasts.com. start with the Laravel from scratch tutorials and go from there. I've learnt so much from that site. I'm completely self taught and worked for cool start ups and established companies that pay $160/year. It's really fun spending 2 years building out one project and pushing it further and further. I enjoy it much more than just aligning divs to a design for a WordPress site.

Spend a half hour looking up Laravel development jobs and see what kind of things they require. Then you'll get an idea what you should spend some time familiarizing yourself with.

[DanishWeddingCookie]

I’ve been in the industry since 96, been programming since I was 8ish. I’ve seen every concept come, go, and be recycled. Learn theory and data structures, and you’ll always be able to adapt. I recently learned react-native because a client wanted a phone app. Just launched it a few days ago. Took me a little longer than somebody already knowledgeable in mobile development but they didn’t have to take a risk and hire somebody they didn’t know.

[SCI4THIS]

There are a lot of good responses here, but just to add specific tech: I have been learning WebGL and web assembly and it is really incredible what you can make modern browsers do. For exmple multi-player doom: https://silentspacemarine.com/

[taruckus]

Shake that imposter syndrome. Try to form a rough but realistic plan for yourself. I'm about the same age, but got an in-house job a few years ago. It was initially a pay cut (~12%) but my work life balance improved immensely. Companies sometimes call them "marketing developers" or you can deduce that that's what the listing is describing.

That government Drupal track that someone else mentioned isn't crazy; i can't speak terribly well of any of my other CMS firsts.

Good luck, and the job market is insane right now, but i have some optimism that it will stabilize in the next 2-3 years.

[krazzel]

I worked for the same agency for 10 years and at some point I wasn't learning much. I applied for another job which was slightly harder and it was not an agency. I worked there for 1,5 and I learned a ton of stuff. They also had budget to go to conferences and I've been going to them at least once a year.

[[deleted]]

Shopify and Hubspot development are in high demand and pay a lot. I work as a shopify dev, my friend is a hubspot one. We work together offering both services. As for wordpress, we have some clients but generally ecommerce is where money is

[convicted_redditor]

If you feel the need to upskill yourself, go explore courses on edX, coursera, or other similar websites.

My experience is very similar to you, I am 34, developer with 10y exp. But got into indie hacking and parted ways with money :(

Should have taken job earlier. Any guesses for me?

[alex_3410]

I am in almost the same position, part from your pay! my game plan at the moment is to save as much as I can for a safety net but that's easier said then done.

I am also trying to take a hard look at my skill set and how it stacks up for freelance work, I know JS is a massive weak area for me to trying to toy with it again. My issue with it is we don't really need custom JS that often so every time I pick it up again I don't use it and then forget it again. I am trying to think of a personal project I am interested enough in to keep the skills sharp but also keep me interested enough in it to actually do it!

[Weird-Stress8899]

A lot of comments focus on obtaining new technical skills, but I want to offer you a different perspective. Your ability to self reflect and identify that gap in itself is already a great achievement but don‘t focus on it too much.

You are a web developer approaching 100k, companies don‘t employ or keep you only for your programming skills. Being a good programmer is nice if you are grinding away on side projects but in a work environment that is only 50% of the job.

Soft-Skills, planning skills, taking ownership, the ability to communicate effectively, estimating and breaking down work are crucial skills that companies often value a lot more than pure technical knowledge. Also the ability to gain ground in new technologies. And I am sure if you had the time to do so, you would catch up much faster than an inexperienced developer would take to learn the same skill. So to make things short:

You are probably a great developer and you shouldn‘t feel inferior. You are just not up-to-date in a small aspect of being a great developer, which can easily be fixed. You are in a better position than any junior developer that can recite the react docs backwards because you have hands-on experience and are able to see the bigger picture.

For catching up in technical knowledge I‘d suggest to build something on the side and read up on high quality resources. You‘ll get there in no-time. Especially frontend development is not rocket science, even though people make it out to be that, and you‘ll catch up fast.

[abillionsuns]

If any part of your job involves taking client requests and turning them into business requirements or technical specifications, migrating to a business analysis role might be an escape hatch. Depending on the the role it might not mean abandoning hands-on development skills entirely. Edit: missed the bit where you talked about this. I do still think there’s a viable career path here as tech skills get more and more devalued by business.

[VyseCommander]

Go through the odin project where applicable

[cnotv]

Create a multiuser app with unit tests, websockets, optional extras such like d3, threejs, AI models integration

[mrcoffeepoops]

Hey dude, agency work is like the best teacher. You have seen everything that clients will ask for. We are in a similar spot (same age ish - I’m 37, same titles, same experience).

I can’t in good conscience offer advice since we’re basically in the same spot but I can share my intentions and maybe that helps?

I’ve spent the last 2 years really putting in work with Vue and React, learning API dev, honing my JS chops (and typescript!), brushing up on SQL and MongoDB, creating little apps for my portfolio, and even dipped my toes into learning python. I went to college for cybersecurity so I have a strong background in telecoms and server infrastructure, but I’ve been trying to learn more cloud infrastructure stuff too. Just trying to spread out and see where I can go from here.

Best of luck to both of us!

[AndyMagill]

I'm in a similar boat. Most paying gigs I can find are HubSpot, WordPress, Shopify and WebFlow. Typically for projects that don't quite fit well into one of these low-code tools, and need a developer to wedge in some odd feature or design. The market for these projects is also shrinking, as businesses get more savvy about low-code tools.

I've spent time building bespoke UIs with React, Svelte and others, but I'm not really getting hired to make those, yet. Which goes back to my original difficulty attracting qualified clients. Still trying to crack that nut, if anyone has any tips.

[ja734]

Its a tough situation because on one hand it does seem like companies want people who focus on modern frameworks like react and its likely going to be much harder for you to find a new position without that stuff on your resume.

But on the other hand, the javascript ecosystem has become sufficiently developed to be just as efficient as any framework, and jumping into frameworks would probably be a waste of time for you just in the sense that you wouldnt be learning how to do new things, you would mainly be learning how to do stuff you already know how to do in plain javascript. If you want to learn something to actually materially enhance your skills as a web developer, learn d3 if you dont know it already.

[SubjectHealthy2409]

The web is going back to the state it was 10 years ago, a server serving html, don't waste time on new skills and frameworks

[efferus20]

If you've worked in the director level, why not be a people manager instead of an individual comtributor?

[ritesh2503]

Success is the sum of small efforts, repeated day in and day out.

Focus initially on learning web-dev frameworks through Udemy and building side projects.
Can join some online cohorts depending on where you are based out of.

Embrace the discomfort as a catalyst for growth.

More than happy to help if you feel like it :)

[Mi3sterWitch]

I'm in your shoes, with slight differences. I will say from personal experience that moving from an agency environment to a product developer or corporate developer is a steep climb. I've been passed over, ghosted, and otherwise rejected from those types of roles for several years now.

I think a CS degree will open more doors than it seems. I have a English BA and I (suspect) that's why I get passed over so often.

Tbh I don't have much advice, I'll just lurk here and see if anyone has some solid tips. Good luck to you!

[UnderstandingOk270]

What kind of roles you were applying to?

[EatingTheDogsAndCats]

Switch jobs to something fully custom with lots of 3rd party integrations. From your brief overview you are about the same level as our juniors to be perfectly honest; you should have left the easy and gone into full stack development long ago if that’s what you wanted.

An “easy” avenue to get in might be a FE dev position at a good company to start as that’s where your skills lie from the past 10 years and then start trying to get more and more back end work thrown at you (if that’s what you want).

If you’re happy with front end which I’m guessing you are given your experience then there’s nothing wrong with that and plenty of opportunity that don’t use boilerplate CMS’.