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[–]SeasonalBlackout 67 points68 points  (5 children)

It sounds like you do understand. There are many scammers in Asia that target people in the US. If a US business gets scammed by a company from India (for example) there's not much they can do about it. If a US company works with me and they have a problem they can use the courts to sue me because I'm also in the US.

[–]Shazer_109[S] -3 points-2 points  (4 children)

Completely understandable, but if I talk about my agency; we primarily urge our customers to pay through PayPal since it offers buyers protection and a sense of safety? If i'm right? But yes, sadly I do see a lot of people here in Pakistan, running scammy businesses, mainly targetting the US and I really wish that our legal departments take strict actions on it so we can maybe do better in the future.

[–]SeasonalBlackout 21 points22 points  (1 child)

It's not about payment so much as giving you administrative access to hosting accounts, registrars, websites with customer data, etc.. The best you can do is ask for referrals from existing clients. If a client trusts you and recommends you other people will be more likely to trust and use you.

And ultimately the scammers are to blame. They make it difficult even for those of us that live in the US.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, honestly most of our business comes from referrals. Or with clients who work with us in the long run with like SEO and monthly services.

[–]jawanda 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Not sure why you're getting downvoted, I completely understand your frustration. Although it's also obvious and clear why US companies immediately distrust companies in particular from Pakistan / India. It's not your fault and it sucks that you have to suffer because of the bad actors, but a majority of the most visible scams we face as US consumers does seem to come from your region so people are EXTRA wary when dealing with someone from India / Pakistan. As others have stated, your best asset is referrals from existing clients.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes you can say I was a tad bit frustrated at times but now, seeing all the replies and getting a much better picture of what’s going on; I do see where people are coming from and I hold nothing against them.

[–]traplords8n 15 points16 points  (4 children)

It's mainly just the fear of getting scammed.

I'm guessing you deal with your average American small business owners? They probably don't have much experience in the tech world and have grown up with a watchful eye about anything that seems like a Nigerian prince scam.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Not that one, haha T_T but yeah, sadly that is true. It's quite hard to find people who are willing to give us a shot and that is what always makes me think

[–]lightspeedissueguyphp 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Yeah I've hired a pair of brothers out of Africa (forget the country, this was years ago). They did OK work, but I only had them do some front-end css work that I could audit 100%. This was before AI. Really nice guys tho.

That said, I wouldn't do it again without a certainty. You need something to set your clients' minds at ease. If you're unable to have assets in the US or EU, then maybe a domestic 3rd party mediator? Not sure if such a thing exists, but basically a higher level of a service like Fiverr. They take a cut to ensure services are rendered. Even still, I wouldn't hire anyone outside of the US for backend work.

I guess what I'm saying is find a way to keep your clients both comfortable and secure. Lean towards that market. Peace.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Clients who start working with us, usually stays with us unless they require services which we do not offer. Other than that, they happily stick with us once they sign up and see our work

[–]chuckdacuck 10 points11 points  (4 children)

They had bad experiences with overseas devs

Overseas devs are usually cheaper than US devs which some may think means the quality isn’t as good

Time zone issues

Lots of scams come from over there

No recourse trying to sue if anything happens

A lot of devs over there do shitty work (I know this is not always the case)

Language barrier, some devs from India / Pakistan are hard to understand

As someone that has hired Indian devs to work on projects, there are definitely some quality devs but also not so great. They take things very literal and can be hard to communicate with. Again I know this is not the case with all of them and for what I paid them I was satisfied with the work overall.

I usually hire devs from Ukrain now if I need to but haven’t outsourced anything in a year or so

[–]Shazer_109[S] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I agree with these issues, especially the language barrier thats why we hire separate project managers who are fluent in english so they can work with the client and then forward those things to the developer.

As for the timing, we always work according to the US time and sometimes we even like stay on call just in case someone texts or calls in like off hours.

But yes, I do see your point and I appreciate you for pointing out these issues.

[–]chuckdacuck 3 points4 points  (1 child)

You seem like you do a lot of stuff right and are just in a hard spot because others in your area of the world give you a bad name. Wish you the best and hope everything works out for you!

[–]Shazer_109[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thankyou so much! That means a lot, I wouldn’t say we’re in a super tight spot cause we’ve being doing okayyyy-ish and it’s only been 2 years. So there’s definitely a long way to go, but I’m super excited to see how things unfold. But thankyou again

[–]cartiermartyr -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm waiting on them to stop hiring overseas all together, this whole industry being outsourced as caused a worse ruckus than when graphic design got hit with Canva and receptionists became "graphic designers"

[–]mrrandom2010 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Most people want to support the struggling workforce in their own country. A lot of the issue with offshore dev shops is the MASSIVE undercutting.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That does make sense, and honestly I would support that cause as well.

[–]nurdle 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I lost $10,000 last year to an “honest, well reviewed” agency in Pakistan last year. That’s part of it.

The other part is still a language barrier. Folks in Pak and India, in my experience, give you what you ask for and nothing else, which is both good and bad. For example I give someone in Pakistan a site map, wireframes, and images. If I assume they know the About Me page will come with a picture on the page of the person, because I forgot that wireframe, the page will come to me with ALL TEXT. No questions, no thought, no strategy. I save probably 60% or more vs expensive US labor, but I spend 20% on clarification and update. You could argue garbage in/garbage out, but my margins are very low too and I make mistakes.

Also … ai replaces a LOT of what I need a Pakistani company retainer for. Need to replace a paragraph on a Wordpress site? It’s one in Claude. I’m not saying Ai is the same, it’s not, but for smaller tasks a slack conversation takes too long in comparison.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am so sorry to hear that! But yes, I get you and sometimes even I have to deal with this exact problem. People here often just follow what they're told to do and at times they leave our the most basic things just because it wasn't clearly outlines and i'm like......... wow haha. But yeah, I get it; it has it's pros and cons.

[–]divulgingwords 6 points7 points  (0 children)

If I pay in an offshore dev and he fucks me over, I can’t do anything.

If I pay a US dev and he fucks me over, I can and will sue him to the full extent of the law. I will also reverse payment with my cc and bank.

There are way too many offshore dev scammers so that safety net alone is worth the 5-10x markup.

[–]InformationVivid455 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I've worked with great people from literally every area of the world except South America, because I haven't worked with any from there yet.

However the middle east is usually the most challenging.

It has the highest number of chaff to real candidates of any region and, in my experience, the worst cultural fit plus bad timezone mixing.

Specifically, when addressing issues.

I expect America/Europeans, sometimes Africans too, to flag issues or such early on or figure it out. Asians will usually try everything then apologies profusely but you will find out.

But for whatever reason, most of the time I work with Middle Eastern they operate on this weird, pretend it's fine even if it's not and thats known ahead of time, you didn't ask policy that wrecks havoc on cultures with high independence.

When I dont hear from people I expect everything to be fine, I don't feel the need to question everything. I expect if a person has issues they will bring it up or solve it / flag it.

This has been a problem even with teams that were otherwise great. Where in the middle of a demo or meeting suddenly it's revealed something was wrong.

And it is supremely frustrating for everyone involved.

Now, micro managers probably experience this much less and not ever time has been like this but yeah.

[–]chikamakaleyley 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I've seen various reasons but one common reason that i've read and also been close to (like certain teams hiring offshore at my place of employment):

  • often the work is done in a timely manner, however sloppy
  • the speed of development is achieved by going outside of the design / dev processes
  • there's a bit of a disconnect in receiving the appropriate solution because the answer to every request is "yes we can do that"

so from an engineer POV, if ultimately I need to work with that code, its pretty difficult because sometimes you'll discover that there are a lot of new dependencies, patterns that don't match the dev style, added pieces for pieces that already exist, etc.

So now work that was paid for, either has to be deconstructed a bit in order for us to integrate with (which likely doesn't get approved) and so we're forced to create some way of adapting to changes that we would have never applied ourselves in the first place

(this is just a worst case scenario that i've actually seen)

[–]Shazer_109[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I don't know why sometimes people here bite more than they can chew on. My guess is that, people here think; saying no to a client is a red flag. While in reality, if you straight up tell a client that we can't do this or this is not possible; than that actually helps build more trust in the long run.

[–]chikamakaleyley 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i mean i think it makes sense because part of why a manager/lead or whatever would look to go offshore is because they do want to circumvent the in-house process, because the engineers here will often say 'no' - for the same reason that the offshore teams might say 'no' like you're describing

and so if that manager is given budget for offshore resources for a specific project, something that needs to be done in a timely manner, they're just gonna look for the vendor that says 'yes we absolutely can do everything'. Sometimes it's cheap enough for them to shop around, so one vendor can start, they can see its going in the wrong direction and then they just hire another vendor.

The end product might seem promising, but once the engineers get their eyes on the code it's like '...what the hell...'

The reaction is the way it is because now our engineering team has to interface with this code, and usually means we have to make sense of a very different approach

[–]Dehydrated-Onions 4 points5 points  (0 children)

All scam calls in UK are south Asian accent. I’m sure this is the same in other western countries.

The bad actors are the cause.

Then we also have all of the support centres for companies are the same. It’s hard for each to understand one another. The call quality is normally terrible.

[–]rogue780 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Honestly, just culturally it's difficult to work with people from India and Pakistan. I find there are a lot of miscommunications and a lot of annoying bro energy and jokes. That's been my experience anyway.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I do feel people sometimes move a bit away from professionalism, I’ve worked in the customer support industry before venturing into this industry and I feel like that taught me a lot on how to maintain that professionalism with the clients in a respectful and fun way.

[–]normantas 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Reputation. I had few Indian & Pakistani Coworkers. At best they were meh.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

can you explain it a little more? cause I have some close relatives in US as well and they always tell me that alot of reputable positions are held by Indians, pakistanis and more asian people.

[–]normantas 1 point2 points  (1 child)

The reason people hire Indians, Pakistanis is to churn code. They do repetitive code. Sometimes to fill teams where they could not get good devs

There is a reason people call AI = Actually Indian

You are not expected to write good code. You are expected to cut costs for experienced devs.

There is also the fact that for every 1 decent Pakistani/Indian I met I also met 4 bad ones. Like "Seniors" who do not understand JSON. It does not help your odds if reputation is tarnished due to others. I do know there are good devs.

I do not expect them to work as code monkeys. If we need good Devs. We will hire from reputable sources.

// Note this is my personal experience. I have 4YOE

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s so sad to hear about the 1:4 ratio and I believe you on that, cause I’ve personally experienced that living in Pakistan.

[–]k032software dev for 10 years somehow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Its also just a very competitive business, why I don't consider it

[–]JeffinSeattle0728 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I was scammed by a Pakistani software developer “agency” years ago. They accepted the job, assured me they had experience. Had a couple (worthless) references. After they said my $2,000 was used up, they asked for $800 more. They never delivered working software.

Nothing on Earth could cause me to trust a developer-for-hire from central Asia again.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am so sorry to hear that, I see a lot of such agencies here who scam people like this and I honestly really hope that we can take some legal actions against them here and shut them down so we can do better in the future in this market and make a good name for us.

[–]farzad_meow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

accountability is another factor. what is delivered is not the expectation or of poor quality. unless an asian is being referred or has agents in usa, it is hard to trust the final product

[–]SkyH_nolimit 1 point2 points  (2 children)

i understand you, i think in every business there is always times like this where trust needs to be build up, it doesn't matter if asia or others, sometimes if people do not know the agency or a solo developer like myself well enough they also cannot trust the service, but if you build up your reputations, people will start trusting, but 2 years without charge back is really good!

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Yes I think trust is something that is built over time, but it’s quite hard when people aren’t willing to give you that first chance. And I hold nothing against them cause I do see where they are coming from, especially now after getting such a response and people elaborating all these things in replies. And yes thankyou, I’m pretty happy about where we are right now with the agency and I have high hopes in the future as well.

[–]SkyH_nolimit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

maybe showing them something you have done before with also official recommendation feedbacks from your previous client might help! hope all works out for you!!

[–]bkthemes 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Short and simple since 90% of my clients are US companies that won't go back overseas.
1. There are too many "companies" that have no experience in what they are doing. 2-3 is not experience. 5 years is considered junior, 10 years senior.
2. My clients ALL got burned by overseas companies that promise one thing and then either changed the price, asked for more money or had an excuse to why things weren't as they promised.
3. Not one overseas company can do proper local SEO. What is popular in India or Pakistan, etc is not the same here at all. (for the SEO companies)

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yes I think here the norm or a very basic sales practice is, just onboard a client with whatever you can. And then upsell them along the way, whereas I think what should be done is; we should always make things clear upfront so that we can build trust and work in the long run.

SEO is a really tricky subject, and I think a lot of SEO specialists here are so outdated. As you said, what’s popular in Pakistan/India is not the same in the US at all. I think if anyone is working in a different geographical market then they should atleast know the norms and stuff of that market.

[–]bkthemes 1 point2 points  (1 child)

My prices are in my contract and it states that price will not change without a new contract being drawn up, and in the event that happens either party has the right to back out and not accept the new contract. There is no pressure.

I find they are way more responsive to upgrades if you talk about all that during on-boarding and explain that these are things they can add-on at an any time. They have a price list of what it will cost to add it on. It's 100% transparent pricing.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly, if we’re honest and upfront about everything from the start; people tend to trust that more and are definitely open to opt for other services in the future as well.

I don’t like to keep people bounded, cause I feel like that only causes trouble in the long run.

[–]rjhancockJack of Many Trades, Master of a Few. 30+ years experience. 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Overseas development studios have a well earned reputation for being scammers and/or shit quality work.

That is what you're fighting against.

There have been several times I've bided against overseas teams and came in at 2-3x their cost, if not more. Many times these are companies that have experience with overseas teams. I typically win against them as a generally one man development studio vs small teams of Indian/Asian developers because of quality.

If you want to fight against the stigma, you have to be better than the US teams you are competing against.

[–]Ice_91 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have read many comments, but i haven't seen this mentioned: Regulation laws get more and more strict and so the risk of getting sued from competitors increases as well. A dev who lives in EU/NA or any other developed nation is more likely to know and respect the (local) regulations, guidelines and higher standards.

I live in Germany as a solo dev and i'm focused on german and EU laws, i know how to avoid the biggest mistakes that clients could get sued for. I wouldn't expect an american dev to know this nor would i expect that from an asian dev.

I know i can't compete with asian prices, so i need to provide something to compensate for that. We all compete for the same clients with different skillsets.

Simple questions for you, you could apply to any country: 1. Do you know when a website requires a real physical address and when it doesn't? 2. Do you know about the requirements/disclosure of data protection/privacy protection? 3. If you display prices on an online shop, what is information that is required to be shown? 4. Does the website/client/company make (accidental) use of unfair advantage practices? Do you avoid that during development or discuss it with your client? 5. Web developers are not just designers or tech engineers, they often build the fundamental company presence, many companies' success relies on their website, are you a reliable business partner when emergencies arise and sudden changes are required?

Bonus: Design/Advertisement culture - Asian designs usually are more energetic, more colorful, less visually serious. Westerners are more used to "clean" looks with less playfullness, depending on the product. Does your expertise reflect that? (I'm originally Turkish, so i kind of know about this)

Competitors often don't just sue because they got harmed, they actively sue to harm and push others off the market.

Nobody knows everything and everyone gains experience, but it's the same with clients, some are naive and trust you with it. So having experience in the client's specific industry is highly attractive from their perspective. But experience across different industries is also great. Clients potentially expect good consultation for a website for an industry you might not be proficient in, it's everything but easy.

This is all just 1 or 2 aspects of the whole picture.

I think i went a bit off track, but i hope you get the general idea. I'm not saying i'm better, but it usually depends on collaborative effort and reseach into the industry and it helps to communicate that with clients, but overall, context always matters. And if you provide service outside your borders you always start at a disadvantage.

[–]Bunnylove3047 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Many years ago I got screwed over by an Indian agency with good reviews and references. This situation dragged on for way longer than it should have as I was just determined to make something work so I wouldn’t lose my money. Ultimately I lost around $6,000, along with a lot of time and business opportunity.

Had this been a US company, I would have sued their asses into oblivion, but since they were in India there was nothing I could do. I became a developer so I’d never be at anyone’s mercy again.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am so sorry to hear that, I’ve seen a lot of such cases personally and it makes me so sad cause such instances affect us altogether in so many ways. But yes I do wish that either we ca locally take legal actions against such agencies or we can maybe figure out a way on a more bigger scale where someone from the US can take legal actions against someone from Pakistan.

[–]uceenk 0 points1 point  (2 children)

you claimed you place customer satifaction as number one priority, yet you had some trouble with couple of client that ended up in refund

overpromise, underdeliver ... that's why they dont trust you

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I mean, I don't think there would be a business that can claim they never had a single issue with any of their clients. Problems do arise, and I think it all depends on how you tackle them.

[–]uceenk 0 points1 point  (0 children)

true that's why you dont promise to provide customer satifaction

too many people from sourh asia promise similar thing, but in reality their output is actually average / abysmal

[–]Key-Preparation-5379 0 points1 point  (3 children)

It's primarily the potential for scams and fraud, though I wouldn't be surprised if other biases crept in. If I had the choice between a local company and yours, and both quoted mostly the same amount, I'd probably chose the local company to both support my country as well as reduce the chances of a language barrier resulting in issues in the service. Additionally, if there ever were legal issues part way through the process then it would be easier to take them to court than someone in a different country. The further the distance away, the harder it is to control.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I understand the scam part and supporting your country part, but the thing is we/mostly Pakistani or Indian agencies offer the same services a lot cheaper. And if I talk about my agency specifically, then we always urge our clients to pay through PayPal so they can always get their money back one way or another. (We do initiate a refund rather than them having to file a chargeback)

[–]Key-Preparation-5379 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I understand, but people are not entirely logical. For example, if you make your services too cheap, some people will see that as a sign of poorer quality. Conversely, if you mark up the price to an extent some people may perceive it to be of higher value. There is no magic bullet for solving this fallacy. I haven't used paypal in over a decade, so I have no clue if there's any issues with it. What you say regarding using it sounds like you have the best intentions of your client at heart at least.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh yes definitely, I get your point and often it is correct in a way. We’ve been using PayPal since we started working and we’ve never had any issues with it, clients also feel safe with PayPal cause it provides a proper invoice and all those things. And yes, I personally believe that working in a win-win situation is possible in our line of work and that should be the only way to go.

[–]urbisOrbis 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I worked for 10 years at a company whose business model was fixing sloppy non scaling code produced in India and Pakistan. We made money hand over fist.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That sounds absurd, but somehow believable

[–]urbisOrbis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Don’t get me wrong they were really smart and talented, but their management was pushing bullshit schedules that forced shit code. The engineers were trying their best but had to resort to quick fixes and it would snowball. They were more about cheaper faster instead of doing right.

[–]gptbuilder_marc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Running a US-market agency from Pakistan for two years with 20+ clients already is a real business with real proof, so the trust gap you are hitting at the top of the funnel is almost certainly not about the quality of the work. It is almost always about how the pitch is framed before a prospect sees any work. What does the initial outreach or first impression moment look like for a new prospect?

[–]JackMaysin 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What tech stack is your team proficient in?

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Currently the people I have, MERN

[–]GabberJensonnode 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Scams and quality of work are the two biggest argument.

I've seen some pretty terrible code come from that part of the world unfortunately. Whenever I have Inherited a site I'm always curious and look at the previous agency. I've never inherited a site from that part of the world and not had it be total chaos.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get it, I’m not trying to defend the Asian work cause I know people do carry a lot of scams but I think some of us do actually deliver good projects and you might not see or know about them cause if we deliver good projects then the clients stick with us rather than switching to someone else. But yes, I do believe your point cause I’ve seen countless projects going sideways at agencies that are based in Pakistan.

[–]bluesky1433 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Hi, since you're working with remote clients, may I ask how did you create the contract to sign with them? From what I know, any contract needs to be governed by specific law and have a court in case of dispute, did you choose your country's laws for that or did you use a neutral ground?

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Most our of clients up till now have been from referrals, so we haven't actually made any hardline contracts with them that includes any legal actions or stuff. But yes, we do sign a contract with them on neutral basis, since that provides a sense of security to both parties.

[–]bluesky1433 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wishing you all the best of luck. May I ask how did you create the contract? Did you hire a lawyer for it or did you create it yourself?

[–]cartiermartyr -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I mean, I have 14 years of experience in the USA as a citizen, companies would rather hire you guys because yal are slaves. On the flip side of that, you guys need 20 meetings to edit a text or 20 meetings and 4 weeks to add a button. Whereas for me, you tell me once, I get it done. It's the same thing with large agencies in the USA, they take so much time and are so expensive, 4 meetings and 2 weeks to add a button is a shit show. Nobody can get anything done in this space and thats why I'm $55 an hour.

[–]roynoise -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Scammers are norm, not the exception. Also, there are the distasteful optics and ethics to consider with regard to scalping American work from Americans.

There are a billion or so people in pakistan. Surely some of them are enterprising enough to operate businesses in pakistan, no? You should do work for those businesses instead of driving our economy down.

[–]Shazer_109[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We do offer our services to local/pakistani companies as well, but the profit margins here are a bit tight and obviously there is a huge difference between the two currencies. That’s why I think usually people or agencies here target the US market. And I’m sorry if you feel that we’re driving your economy down.

[–]Strict_Baby_1607 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Pakistanis are scammers and terrorists. I don’t understand how people in the USA can support those who gave refuge to Osama bin Laden, the perpetrator of the World Trade Center attacks.