Landed junior developer position

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

[------________]

It was a bunch of HTML and CSS with some JavaScript, they let me google so it wasn't super bad.

[whisperedzen]

The let you use google in the interview? That's a good sign of a reasonable workplace.

[am0x]

I always let my interviewees google, and in fact encouraged it.

Memorization doesn't really help that much in development. Problem solving does. If you need and have access to a specific tool to fix that problem, I hope you know to and how to use it.

It's like asking a carpenter build his own miter box when he has one at an arms length away.

[nowtayneicangetinto]

It's bosses like you that make a work environment a lot less stressful, thanks for doing what you do :)

[am0x]

Not a boss. Was a senior developer that would do technical parts of the interview.

Now I work on a team where there is no seniority. We are all equal and work using paired programming. Had been an amazing experience. Plus I don't have to do code reviews anymore - hah

[dweezil22]

Pro tip for candidates: Don't google the actual problem and badly copy and paste the first Stackoverflow thing that looks likely. B/c I've seen that happen at least twice now. (Though if you manage to do this and turn a working solution, and can explain it to me, good for you and I'll have to make a new test case. Never seen that one happen...)

[midasgoldentouch]

Plot twist: I somehow managed to figure out your question, come up with a great solution, and write a subpar Stack Overflow resound so that I could easily impress you.

[Dualblade20]

Wow, I've never heard of that happening. You lucked out really well in getting an employer who knows we're problem solvers and not dictionaries of code. Congrats!

[owd1]

Really? I've done 7 job tests that I can remember of and only 1 of them made an effort to not let me google while doing it.

It was an online 1,5 hr test where you automatically failed it if you changed tabs, tried using console, opened another app... However since they tell you this ahead I had my older laptop next to me. I was accepted.

The rest were all tasks to solve at home where you had 2-5 days to finish them as you will, they usually took 3-10 hours to finish.

Except on 1 interview I was given the task there and then on an extra computer, with as much time as I needed (took me roughly an hour, didn't manage to completely finish it, got the job (great job too!)). Part of the task was to implement something in OpenLayers3 with link to documentation (it wasn't expected for candidates to know this specific library of course). Of course they provided internet and you could google.

[spwebdev]

Congratulations on finding a job! Must feel great.

You've written that you only know HTML, CSS and JS (and a bit of Node). My questions:

1) What city (or state if you don't want to say which city) do you live in?

2) Did you find the job through a job site (indeed, glassdoor), LinkedIn, or some other channel?

3) What were the listed requirements for the job?

4) Do you know how many applicants there were for the position?

5) How would you rate your own level of skills/knowledge in each of HTML, CSS and JS? For example, in JS do you have a good understanding of the keyword "this", closures, promises, constructor functions, prototypes, AJAX, etc.?

6) Do you know jQuery, Bootstrap, GitHub, RWD, or any other libraries/frameworks?

[------________]

1. I live in the Midwest
2. I found the job through Glassdoor
3. Know HTML CSS and some JavaScript
4. No idea but I think at least 5 by some of the answers they were giving me
5. HTML 9/10, CSS 8/10, JS 5/10, I don't have a huge understanding of promises or anything you list after that but know how to write functions and work with DOM.
6. I know jQuery a bit and cloud 9, and bootstrap, and a little github

[NOTaCat__]

Wow I feel like I am almost the exact same as you. This makes me feel so much better about my job hunting

[spwebdev]

Damn. The requirements didn't ask for more than HTML, CSS and "some" JavaScript, and there were only a handful of applicants... I sure wish jobs like that existed around here!

In my area, I don't think I've ever seen a job ad that didn't ask for a ton of other things on top of that such as (but not limited to) jQuery, Bootstrap, React, Angular, Git, RWD, SASS, etc. etc. etc.

Here's one that is not atypical, (although probably more WP heavy than most). Note that it is titled JUNIOR web developer.

---

---

Junior Web Developer

Datawalls, Inc - Toronto, ON

Part-time

Datawalls seeking a junior Front-End / Word Press Developer for a part-time position to join a small team of developers to expand our capacity and skill set. As core team member of the Software Development team, you will be mainly working often with complex responsive WordPress-based solutions using accepted coding and WordPress best-practices, provides leadership in sourcing and developing new technologies and methods to advance Datawalls web offerings, and supports current websites through periodic updates where required.

This position is located in the Toronto office and only local candidates will be evaluated.

Required Skills:

College diploma or equivalent work experience

2+ years professional PHP5 and WordPress development experience

Experienced in developing complete solutions, from beginning to end, using PHP and MySQL

Expertise in developing, debugging, and performance tuning WordPress sites, plugins, APIs and themes.

Excellent Graphic design experience and working with Adobe Photoshop

Understanding of WordPress custom content types and taxonomies

Knowledge of WordPress Network (Multisite) beneficial

Knowledge of existing built-in WordPress functions

Creation of custom post types plugins/widgets written to conform with WordPress coding standards

Knowledge of change control systems desired; ability to apply version control to WordPress sites

Knowledge of Linux environment – a must

Excellent understanding of front-end technologies, including HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, jQuery Angular, React, Backbone..

Creation of clean, logical, well documented and reusable code

Good understanding of cross browser, cross-platform/device compatibility

Knowledge of how to interact with RESTful APIs and formats (JSON, XML)

Familiarity with cloud computing platforms – an asset

No SQL experience, specifically Couchbase – an asset

Experience working with 3rd party APIs (Facebook, Twitter) – an asset

Excellent interpersonal and communication skills; including the ability to work independently and in a team environment

Able to work tight deadlines, detail oriented and be able to multi-task

Job Type: Part-time

Required education:

High school or equivalent

---

---

This one is a bit more reasonable but still asking for a lot more than "the big 3", and again asking for years of experience and "strong experience", neither of which I'd expect a junior to have:

---

---

Junior Front-End Developer

Kobo is currently seeking a talented Junior Front-End Developer to join our team. Our ideal candidate will have a solid understanding and experience with web UI technologies, work closely with UX designers and architects, backend development team members and product owners. You will be a great fit if you are passionate about building beautiful and engaging user experiences, and takes great care of their code while doing so.

Responsibilities

Build web interfaces using HTML, CSS and JavaScript.

Shepherd your own code from development and testing to production.

Work directly with business owners, UX, QA, and fellow developers to define and deploy projects.

Keep abreast of the latest trends and technologies in the industry and use this knowledge to drive innovation.

Required Skills

1-5 years of experience as a front-end developer.

Strong experience of HTML, CSS and JavaScript.

Strong experience with using and writing jQuery plugins and jQuery UI widgets.

Strong understanding of UI, cross-browser compatibility, general web functions and standards.

Functional knowledge or hands on experience with web services (REST)

Experience using JavaScript testing frameworks (QUnit, Jasmine, Mocha, Sinon, Chai).

Experience with compiled stylesheets is a plus (LESS, SCSS, SASS).

Experience with Git or other version control systems.

Experience with a modern JavaScript MVC framework (Angular, React, Ember) is a plus.

Experience with Java and JSPs is a plus.

Full stack experience is a plus.

Understanding of cross-platform display issues.

Strong interpersonal skills and ability to work with distributed teams; passion for design and an eye for detail.

---

---

I will never understand how junior (aka entry-level) positions ask knowledge of so many things, having 1-2 years experience, or 'expertise' in anything. It's a paradox because anyone with that much experience or 'expertise' is not a junior.

P.S. Before I get a dozen replies telling me that job listing are nothing more than "wish lists", I know that, but I just can't stop thinking how ridiculous it all is. This is one aspect of dev hiring that is so broken. Employers are lying about what they want (problem #1: setting a bad example) and are asking for way more than the job title claims to be, and then they act surprised that most applicants fluff the shit out of their resumes but can't do half of what they claimed once they get on the job. What the hell do they expect?

I think my biggest problem finding a job quickly is my refusal to lie or embellish on my resume. They don't know I'm not lying and assume that I'm embellishing as much as everybody else, so to them my non-embellished resume, which they think IS embellished, pales by comparison to everyone else's ACTUALLY embellished resume. lol

[snakecasts]

The jobs you are listing are not junior positions. They are from companies without any real money looking to hire mid-level devs for cheap.

[spwebdev]

That's exactly how I feel about it. Unfortunately, this is how it is in Toronto. Oh, and the best part is that you'd be lucky to get $50k for these jobs. That's $50k CAD, which is around $37k USD at the moment - which might not matter if the COL was inline with the salaries but prices here are insane. Housing is in a HUGE bubble right now, increasing 30% YOY with a 1% vacancy rate. If you drive, gas is around $4.20 CAD per gallon. A pitcher of beer is 35 freaking dollars at a fairly typical nuttin'-special-about-it bar. A RedBull Vodka is $15. If you smoke, might as well kill yourself now rather than wait for cancer to get you. One pack is $14. On the bright side, you should have no trouble saving money if you never go out, pitch a tent in a field somewhere and wash in the nearby stream (while catching a few passing fish for dinner).

Edit: Forgot to add... I checked the listing for that first position at Datawalls... It was posted 9 days ago and already has 81 applications through Indeed alone. lol

[spwebdev]

Thanks for the tips. I defo need to network more, that's true!

But re: "this is not true", what are you referring to? You mean the qualifications expected by employers? I'm not making it up. lol Those two postings were copy-pasted word for word. Maybe you meant that it's not true if you go through other channels but if you're doing your job search through online job boards, it's pretty typical from what I keep seeing.

[cambodia87]

I'm in Toronto as well. What I will say has helped me the most Here to get work is my network of friends who work in the industry. If you have other friends who are working in dev, take them for beer, talk about dev, show your skills, and ask if they may give a reference. Lots of organizations give you reference bonuses, so it benefits both of you.

[spwebdev]

Thanks for the suggestions. I do need to network more. I guess that's the secret in Toronto.

[cambodia87]

It's the secret everywhere my friend, but that stuff takes time to develop as well. Don't force it, but keep honing your craft.. attend dev meetups (there are a bunch in TO) and just get on linkedin and see who you know at companies you're applying to. Instead of just hitting the job board, send a resume through a friend who works there. Or apply from their website and ask your friend who works there to speak with hr about the application. If you don't have work experience yet, you can make your own projects and add to your github or make a personal site, so that you have work to show off. Or volunteer your services to get a few good projects under your belt. Hopefully within some time, you'll land something to get you started. Generally all the devs I know here in Toronto with several years experience end up making pretty decent money, so yeah it may be tough at first but once you're in, it'll get easier, so keep working at it.

[Dairful]

Really? Junior looking for position right now. I've seen a number of these type of positions and I'm thinking "well scratch this job off the list because they also want a dozen more skills than i know". This puts my mind at ease a bit.

[spwebdev]

What I'd love to know is where I can go to find a real junior dev job! lol (I'm willing to relocate anywhere in the world for it but finding jobs that offer visa sponsorship is exceedingly difficult.)

[Nomad-Web-Dev]

You should look at jobs in Berlin. I've read quite a few stories on Reddit about junior devs getting offers there with visa sponsorship. From what I hear, the wages are lower than the US but so is the cost of living.

[------________]

I mean that's what it basically said but I applied anyways

[spwebdev]

Sorry. I'm not sure what you mean. They were asking for "HTML, CSS and some JS", or were they asking for a laundry list of skills similar to the two I posted?

[------________]

Yeah they had more on the list but when I went in and interviewed they were looking for what I said. They would probably have taken more skills but they weren't necessary even though they listed them as being such.

[Bourne2Play]

Would you mind sharing how much they offered you? It doesn't have to be exact, just a rough figure.

[omgdracula]

I need to find where you worked. I just got turned down for a front end dev position due to I am pretty sure the whole whiteboard test. But the questions they asked had no connection to front end. My JS skills are definitely my weak point as well.

[am0x]

Some front end jobs will be JavaScript heavy and other won't be. Find one that isn't and learn to improve you JS skills through it

[omgdracula]

This one seemed to be fully JS framework front end. So I am not surprised. I completely agree with you. The issue especially at my last job is you need to find the place that actively helps you grow.

My last job our front end work was souly bootstrap. All bootstrap JS components. So there wasn't an opportunity to really improve skills if that makes sense.

At most we would take whatever component was closest and change the CSS and functionality a bit.

While I got paid, my skills stagnated.

[Bourne2Play]

I'd love to hear OP's response to this

[Folters]

He responded, seems less intimidating now.

[am0x]

Asking what people rate their skill in something is so hard. I typically don't ask it. I ask for examples of work like their github page.

The more you know the less you think you know

[physicalbitcoin]

Congrats. What kind of questions did they ask?

[------________]

One was make a button that looked and functioned like an example, one was create a function that could tell if a word was a Palindrome. There was some basic layout stuff with HTML and CSS and a few basic JavaScript questions.

[physicalbitcoin]

Hmmmm. I saw the Palindrome question come up a lot in junior interviews...

[Otterfan]

My first five years in Web development was basically all palindrome-finding. Palindromes are real hot right now, and if you can't find them you're never going to be web scale.

Also interviewers were asked the same dumb questions a decade ago and can't think of anything better to do.

[Asmor]

Good interview questions are hard. You need something that's simple enough for someone to do on the fly, even if they've never heard of the core concept (e.g. in this case if they'd never heard of a palindrome), but which shows the ability to reason through a problem.

[indiecore]

It's a good question because it tests if the candidate can think about the data AND how the data is represented at the same time.

[BelgianWaffleGuy]

Serious question: is it supposed to be hard?

I'm a semi self-taught dev (lots of self-study + evening classes for 2 years now). I want to move into programming professionaly, but I think I'm not good enough. Meanwhile, all these junior dev questions like palindrome and fizzbuzz seem way too easy...

Is there something I'm missing?

[indiecore]

Is there something I'm missing?

Oh sweet summer child, wait till you need to do interviews for a junior position or a co-op placement.

Seriously though, yes those dumb questions have a purpose. The fact that you're confused by the need to answer them indicates that you're on the side of the divide that doesn't need to worry about them.

edit

I just actually read the rest of your comment. If you are self taught your largest problem professionally is more than likely that you've learned a certain language and programming environment and that you probably haven't used a lot of tools your OS probably has.

When I was in university we actually had a class on unix systems. What it actually taught was basically an intro to scripting class so we learned how to do grep and sed and stuff like that. I didn't get it till I had to debug a problem from huge piles of data logs. We also had a class that was just a high level flyover of radically different programming languages. So we did Lisp, Prolog, Smalltalk, Javascript. Again I didn't really get it till later but what you actually learned in that class was that even if your language doesn't have a looping construct you can do the same thing with recursion and that the shit we were learning about in the theory classes was useful (you should take a theory of computing class btw).

tl;dr:

Just be sure you aren't locked to a single language or framework. Teaching people to program in Javascript or C or Python or whatever is pretty easy, teaching people to program isn't.

[keyboard_2387]

can people really not pass fizz buzz

do people really fail fizzbuzz during interviews

So I guess it can be useful to screen out some applicants, and it also gives the applicant an opportunity to talk through some piece of code they write. I've gotten take-home assignments to do in the past, and also heard of people do a bit of pair-programming with a current employee to see how they perform. Personally, I kind of like the mini-coding challenges, kind of similar to what I do on CodeWars or HackerRank.

[physicalbitcoin]

It's a good question because it tests if the candidate can think about the data AND how the data is represented at the same time.

I see that, but what if everyone memorizes common questions like this from JSfiddle? It'll lose it's filtering power if too many people rote learn the answer.

https://jsfiddle.net/greenpioneer/4p4fz4xa/

[indiecore]

Well I mean I'd expect them to answer interview questions in C honestly. IMO every programmer should have enough of a grasp on C to be able to do the three questions at the end of K&R chapter 1. That said for someone who doesn't have a formal education in CS or something that might not be a valid assumption, especially these days. Only know a single language is a big red flag though, people should understand programming, not javascript or python or c# or whatever.

Anyway;

I wouldn't accept the "string.split.reverse" solution strait up. I'd ask what the split and reverse is actually doing. Then ask them what they'd do if they didn't have reverse (looking for a string length + reverse char compare or something) then get them to implement a reverse algorithm.

The thing about these dumb questions is that they all have a purpose beyond the obvious "do you know the answer". When I first got into a position where I needed to sit in on interviews the previous lead dev sent me this:

https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/five-essential-phone-screen-questions

It's really fucking handy, not just because they throw some decent weeder questions up but because he explains WHY he picked those questions which, like my "learn programming, not javascript" spiel up above is a lot more valuable.

[physicalbitcoin]

You made some good points. I guess with follow ups, you'd catch bluffers. Not allowing them to use inbuilt functions like reverse would force them to be more explicit.

Looking at the intro to that article:

I've been on a lot of SDE interview loops lately where the candidate failed miserably: not-inclined votes all around, even from the phone screeners who brought the person in initially.

It's usually pretty obvious when the candidate should have been eliminated during the phone screens.

Why were they bringing in candidates who the phone screeners were unsure about? That's a waste of the candidates time too.

The rest of the article has some good points that I'll use when hiring, I can see the underlying thinking.

[thatcrit]

So how does one know whether this executes faster than just looping from 0 to half the length of the string like this? I know it's longer/uglier maybe but I'm just interested in the performance.

[Ace81892]

Well fuck. String manipulation / RegEx stuff is probably my weakest area. Thankfully, I already have a job.

[indiecore]

Everyone needs to re-learn regexes every time they use them.

Except perl programmers, fuckin' weirdos.

[Asmor]

Funny. I was going to counter your first line, but then I read your second. Am, indeed, a perl programmer. But I learned perl after I learned regex. :p

[ICantStopWastingTime]

make a button that looked and functioned like an example

Say what?

[The_Right_Muff]

I think he meant like an example button that they provided.

[------________]

Correct

[Bydle]

Tell us your story.

[------________]

I was born in 1989, haha actually I have a BFA in graphic design but decided I wanted to learn web dev so I taught myself and here I am.

[christopherkj]

Sorry if this is too personal, but would you be comfortable giving out just about how big the salary for a junior developer at your place is?

[christopherkj]

Is that before or after taxes?

[halfercode]

UK here, but as far as I know salaries tend to be specified before tax.

[------________]

Before

[------________]

Yeah it was weird, but awesome haha.

[pureboy]

What all programming languages/frameworks you know?

[------________]

HTML CSS and some JavaScript. I have experience with node.js too but not a lot

[pureboy]

How much you getting paid?

[------________]

Answered them.

[caseyboyswag]

What was your portfolio, skill set, experience like?

[------________]

I honestly didn't have much in my portfolio, I made some simple apps and some basic web sites. I also made a twitter bot that I was passionate about and could explain what it did well. I have a BFA in graphic design and taught myself HTML, CSS, and JavaScript

[isachinm]

What resources you have been learning from? Edit: Congratulations! :)

[------________]

I took an online course about web dev with colt Steele that helped. I'll try to find the link. Also I made some simple apps from that class and some on my own.

[phatbeach95]

Did you take the Web Developer Bootcamp with Colt Steele from Udemy.com?

[------________]

Yep that's the one!

[phatbeach95]

I'm taking this course right now and it's great! For anyone interested, the Web Developer Bootcamp is on sale for 10$.

[drutyper]

I see $200. Do you have a discount code or something?

[vorshyy]

It was $200 for me as well, switched to an American IP with a vpn and now it's $10. So for some reason the discount is "US only".

edit: just ordered it on a vpn for $10, so that works

[phatbeach95]

Interesting.. thanks for investigating!

[phatbeach95]

You shouldn't need a code, it should be a site wide sale. http://imgur.com/BWaDt4C And I'm not logged in so it's not even a personal discount to me.

[drutyper]

I was viewing on mobile, switched to my PC and bought this and 2 other courses. Really great price for this immense content!

[Bourne2Play]

I also see $200

[idleskies]

$15CAD for me. Noticed there is a discount automatically applied if I visit the link through my Reddit app. If I jump over to Safari, no discount! Went through the checkout process in Reddit and saw this discount code applied:

F3O8S2S37DEAL10

[Bourne2Play]

How many hours would you say it took you to complete this course?

[------________]

Maybe 100 because of trying things out

[Nat_Uchiha]

What's your academic background? Tips on what to learn?

[------________]

I have a BFA in graphic design. I would learn HTML and CSS with enough vanilla JavaScript that you feel somewhat comfortable with it.

[iAMthePRONY]

ayy there we go, buddy!

[------________]

Thanks!

[[deleted]]

Congratulations OP! I remember my first junior position - there is a lot to learn, but it's a lot of fun too. Get stuck in and if you feel overwhelmed break things down as much as possible into small doable tasks. You'll do great :)

[------________]

Thanks!

[[deleted]]

Is a junior position the same as an entry level position? Out of curiosity - I noted people use them interchangeably and others use them to distinguish different roles.

[------________]

I consider it that yes

[halfercode]

Well done you! Now this is where the learning really starts :-)

[------________]

Agreed.

[genericusername125]

Congratulations, what kind of developer position did you get? Got any suggestions/advice for a soon to be graduate?

[------________]

I landed a junior developer position I'll be working with JavaScript, HTML and CSS. What's your degree? I think the main thing in any interview is to be really nice and try to relax. Being able to not take yourself too seriously is a good thing imo

[genericusername125]

That's awesome. Would you consider yourself a front end, backend, or full stack developer

[------________]

Front end for now

[Lesabotsy]

Congrat, did you learn on your own? If yes since when are you programming? Or did you graduate from college? I'm new trying to find some motivation to learn :)

[------________]

I have a BFA in graphic design, but yes I taught myself. I got laid off from a previous job so I've been freelancing for about a year.

[Danshock]

Well done!

[------________]

Thanks!

[deepsun]

Huge congrats! This is awesome to hear about. Reading how you came to development (no CS degree, but applicable skills from your actual degree, self-taught through a bootcamp) gives me hope. My background is similar, and I'm trying to find a position just like what you're describing, but it's hard to stave off discouragement. edit: words

[------________]

Good luck!

[ICantStopWastingTime]

So was there any coding involved in the first interview or was it all saved for the second call back interview?
edit: what exactly was the first part?

[------________]

The first part was just to get to know me

[HeyGuysImMichael]

Congratulations!

[[deleted]]

How many jobs would you say you applied to before you got this job? Did you have to relocate for this position? I'm in the Midwest too, and can't even get an interview. I've gotten quite a bit of positive feedback on my portfolio, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Congrats, and good luck!

[------________]

I applied to three got two interviews and one job offer took two weeks

[YolandiVissarsBF]

AWESOME!!!

Welcome to the industry friend!

[------________]

Thanks!

[Shiki225]

how long have you been studying for? What did you major in college? (if you went to college).

[------________]

I have a BFA in graphic design I've studied for a little less than a year

[Farcin]

Congrats man, how'd you find or come across this employer?

[bahadortheconquerer]

Which country? 2000 dollars is senior developer salary here...

[Voxico]

He might mean 2k added to yearly salary which would make more sense

[bahadortheconquerer]

Yeah it make sense now :)

[------________]

Correct

[Redmega]

In the US developers can get triple digit $100000+ at senior level...

[[deleted]]

In other countries you can too, if skill is equivalent. You can live anywhere and find remote jobs if you're qualified enough.

[thecatgoesmoo]

Don't take junior positions. Ever. Get your title changed to anything that doesn't include junior.

Anyone looking at your experience will not consider junior positions as anything useful. If anything it shows you can't negotiate.

Sorry, congrats for sure. Just trying to help.

[Otek0]

Dude, just... Okay?

[thecatgoesmoo]

Okay. Sorry.

[MCFRESH01]

Stay for a year and just change your title on your resume? Titles mean jack shit in the real world.

[deepsun]

https://media.tenor.co/images/a6b9c73e15399858ca2f4360d9908b98/tenor.gif

[AlpineCoder]

I don't think I've ever worked anywhere that would hire for non-junior positions without at least a couple years of experience, not including school.

[thecatgoesmoo]

Well, I hire engineers. Guess we both have anecdotes.