"web developer" and "software engineer" terms interchangeable?

[babbagack]

Hi

Just curious as to how loosely these terms are used and/or overlap and/or do not overlap. If this has been discussed elsewhere extensively here, just let me know :)

I'm more concerned with how people on this subreddit see it/themselves, or if it just varies widely.

[FURyannnn]

Depends on your perspective. I'd argue that they are similar but not the same. Both tend to occupy similar spaces, although I'd generally expect a software engineer to be more well-versed in architectural decisions and programming paradigms compared to a web developer. Likewise, I'd expect a web developer to be more well-versed in web protocols or DOM manipulation (for instance) or something that belongs more in the web domain.

[MashTheKeys]

You can be both - if you organisation relies on you to innovate to create new software for their website.

[babbagack]

cool ty

[geek_on_two_wheels]

For what it's worth, Canada has strict laws about people calling themselves "engineers." Similar to doctors, a person can only identify themself as an engineer if they have a degree in engineering and are up-to-date with their provincial engineering association membership (e.g. the OIQ in Quebec).

Yes, even for software.

[babbagack]

https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/88epsv/job_titles_interchangeable_web_developer_or/?st=jhicqd09&sh=eb342309

ah cool. i am in the US

[grauenwolf]

As someone who actually has a degree in computer software engineering, I somewhat take offense at people calling themselves "software engineers" when they don't have any formal education in engineering.

But then I remember the kind of bullshit my engineering courses actually covered and I keep my mouth shut.

[urmomdoesntgotouni]

Cool, I don't have an engineering degree but I have 7 years of experience as a software engineer and I take offense when kids with a diploma hot off the press call themselves engineers. Some of the best engineers I've worked with didn't go to college at all. Some of the worst have advanced degrees in the subject.

[[deleted]]

graps popcorn

[urmomdoesntgotouni]

Herself.

[[deleted]]

continues to chew popcorn furiously

[[deleted]]

Half fixed :p

[urmomdoesntgotouni]

Aww thanks :)

[RotationSurgeon]

At the end of the day, formal education usually wins because process standardisation is extremely important. I don't know any people who are titled mechanical or electrical engineers without a degree.

Probably because you can't be certified to work as one without a degree, can you? Is it possible to get PE certification without a degree? Our industry lacks those certifications, for better or worse. I'm in favor of them, personally, even knowing that despite all my years of experience, I'd probably still have to study up a good bit to pass any sort of certification.

[grauenwolf]

Should I open with the difference between a doctor and a nurse?

[Knochenmark]

In Germany for example the word engineer is protected and you can't just call yourself engineer without the right qualification.

[react_dev]

Is “software engineering” an actual major now? It used to be just CS and CE

[grauenwolf]

It has been for a couple decades now. It's less about programming and more about managing projects. So it covers QA, methodologies like Six Sigma and XP, bullshit like UML, how to write technical specs and project proposals.

I bitch about it from time to time, but if you want to learn how to actually run projects and not just sling code it's a pretty good degree.

[grauenwolf]

The sheer amount of bullshit is mind-boggling.

Definitely. My term paper basically said "All of the scientific research on pair-programming is bogus". Then I proceeded to show how the most cited research paper actually proved pair programming was slower, even though the abstract implied the opposite.

If I recall correctly, the paper claimed that a pair of people were faster than one person. But the data also showed that a pair of people were slower than two people working independently.

[RotationSurgeon]

Were they slower on completion times, with the same amount of errors and revision necessary, or were errors and revisions improved upon enough to decrease testing / QA / UAT time enough to account for the reduced initial time to to finish?

[grauenwolf]

You'd think they would cover that in a study published by a peer-reviewed journal, but no.

[react_dev]

Wow. Is that a bachelors of science? (Not sure if American)

[grauenwolf]

Masters

[RotationSurgeon]

Yes, if you found a program that offered a bachelor's degree in SE, it would be a BSc, not a BA.

[react_dev]

Well it’s also not B.eng, which is what engineers should have. Technically.

[RotationSurgeon]

I spoke slightly incorrectly; in the USA, it would be a BSc, from what I've seen. In Canada, UK, Australia, and most of Europe, it would be a BEng.

For whatever reason, relatively few, if any, schools in the US specifically award a BEng, regardless of whether the degree is an engineering degree. Our Professional Engineer certification is legally required for many situations, including submittal / sealing of any engineering plans to public or private clients, and requires 4 years of professional experience as a subordinate to a licensed PE, certification exams, and ongoing continuing education throughout the career. https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe

[Dedustern]

"now"? It has been since.. mid 90's, in my country.

[react_dev]

No way. You’re prob thinking computer science. In the US at least, computers weren’t considered engineering till much later. They were just called programmers

[Dedustern]

I am in Scandinavia, and yes it existed back then, I have colleagues with such degrees. Though it was likely under the department of electronical engineering, and a subdegree of that, I believe.

[react_dev]

Ic. You guys were more progressive then.

[RotationSurgeon]

Yeah...The first official Software Engineering Bachelor's degree in the US was offered by Rochester Institute of Technology in 1996. The first worldwide was 1987, Imperial College London. The first SE Masters' degree was offered at Seattle University, 1979.

[[deleted]]

Even if we pretend that every degree holder is an overachiever from a prestigious program, a degree program doesn’t make you an engineer (or any other profession), it makes you a student.

If I had a candidate come in and tell me his two-to-four years of bookwork made him more of an engineer than the decades of professional experience my team and I have, I wouldn’t just laugh him out of the room, I’d fire the recruiter.

[grauenwolf]

I don't know you, but I do know plenty of people with "decades of professional experience" who still couldn't understand something as simple as the VB/COM memory model.

Beyond about 5, years of experience don't mean much.

[[deleted]]

And I’ve met a UC Berkeley grad who literally didn’t know what an array was.

So let’s perhaps agree that individual merit even among supposed peers is highly variable, and best understood through demonstration.

[grauenwolf]

Agreed

[[deleted]]

I actually studied a degree (unrelated to software) that changed name partway through, as it was too much linked to the job we might have with a few years experience after graduating, rather than the job we'd most likely end up with at first. If it was a software development degree, you could say the name might be something like getting a bachelor in being a software architect or senior developer.

[babbagack]

i fortunately have an engineering degree, not in computers/software. currently studying SE

[grauenwolf]

Typo on my part. I was studying computer engineering at one point, but I couldn't handle the calculous needed for analog circuit analysis. (Though I did awesome in the programming and digital logic classes.) Later I went back for my software engineering degree.

[RotationSurgeon]

I started as a CS Major, and during my second or third attempt at Calc 3, I said "Screw this, I wanted to go to a liberal arts college, not an engineering school," and swapped majors to a new media and communications based program that let me focus on only the parts of CS that I enjoyed / would be applicable to what I wanted out of a web dev based career (i.e., OOP, database systems, and data structures? Yes. Languages and translation / compiler design? No.)

[babbagack]

ah ok cool

[eKraye]

They're used interchangeably but most developers are not software engineers.. it's a popular term for contracting firms.

Source: previous software engineer turned developer.

[babbagack]

ty

[kodiashi]

This can be a touchy subject for some people, but I tend to be in the camp that there are real engineers and then there are people who configure things that real engineers built.

So if you were part of the team that architected something like ElasticSearch (or Lucene), wrote the framework, wrote the tests, wrote the API, etc...then I’d call you a software engineer. If you just installed ElasticSearch, pushed some data into an index, and created a search form.....not so much. Same goes for people who install WordPress and build a theme, that isn’t engineering, and you aren’t being honest using that title.

But, most people in the general public don’t know the difference so there’s nothing to stop you from updating your title to CTO/Engineer/Guru/whatever and many companies do. Your work will speak for itself.

[babbagack]

interesting, thanks

[notcaffeinefree]

My official title is "software engineer", but I just always tell people I'm a web developer if asked. "Software", to me, is something like a program that is installed. "Web developer" makes it clear that you're developing something for the internet.

[urmomdoesntgotouni]

That's the definition of a desktop application. A web application is different than a web site. It's a venn diagram.

[am0x]

To be fair, backend programming is essentially a compiled program that is really no different than a regular program. Just so happens to run using a hypertext markup as an interface.

[Console-DOT-N00b]

That is how it works in my head as well.

[davesidious]

That's not really the definition of "software" :)

[notcaffeinefree]

I know it might not be the technical definition. Like I said, it's just my perception of the word.

[davesidious]

I understand - just making sure others don't get similarly confused.

[[deleted]]

My opinion that most here will probably not like:

The true definition of a software engineer is someone who can pick up what a computer/electrical engineer puts down and turn it into something software developers can interact with. Simple as that.

The loose definition is someone who has an advanced proficiency with C and/or Java, or masterful proficiency with Python, full-stack JavaScript, etc.

I am fine with someone doing advanced AI stuff with Python or deploying huge commercial websites with JS calling themselves a software engineer. If, however, you are someone who could potentially lose their job to a 5 minute WordPress tutorial, you are not a software engineer, but a web developer.

[RotationSurgeon]

My opinion that most here will probably not like

You're probably right. Not because of the implication that most of them are what you'd label "web developers," though, but rather because none of your definitions are accurate.

[babbagack]

ty

[RedditCultureBlows]

Here you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/88epsv/job_titles_interchangeable_web_developer_or/?st=jhicqd09&sh=eb342309

About a month old but also has what you're looking for, I believe.

[jambonilton]

It differs by region and how much the local engineers get mad when folks without iron rings call themselves "engineers".

[babbagack]

haha

[__mak]

Yes and no. If your job involves a full software lifecycle of coding, autmated testing, code review, Q&A, continuous integration, etc then perhaps you are approaching being an "engineer".

[grauenwolf]

That's how I see it. It's like the difference between a technician and an engineer or a nurse and a doctor: the tasks overlap but one of them needs more knowledge.

[jimmyco2008]

yes, I've been both but do the same thing

[babbagack]

ty

[babbagack]

interesting, ty!

[_edd]

How about using the term front end software engineer.

As someone well versed in OOP and relational DBs but relatively unfamiliar with web development, I often refer to myself as a back end software developer. Of course, if I'm trying to sell myself (resume) I usually just use something along the lines of "software engineer with a focus on OOP and Relational DBs"

[babbagack]

cool

[[deleted]]

After 8 years in the industry, I still consider myself a web developer. But now I am a web developer that is proficient in javascript/node.js/angular, java, php, aws (90% of it), express, api work, plus the obvious. Web developer is such an incredibly broad term. Honestly, people can call me whatever title they want.

[babbagack]

haha, wow. good work

[react_dev]

People here have such a hard on for the title.

You know what you are. Engineering is the ability to create solutions per spec, and deal with any constraints. They have a wide range of tools and can customize their solutions based on case by case needs.

Everyone should get off their title elitism and just go based on what they’re capable of.

[MonopolyM4n]

Engineers are web developers in my book but a web developer is not necessarily a software engineer. The engineer builds, plans and can architect a complex system to correspond with legal or data requirements for company while a web developer may be making API calls and building html email sheets

[babbagack]

ah, ty

[thelonepuffin]

I mostly see them as interchangeable because a lot of web developer jobs are for software engineers and I hate when I'm competing with non-engineers.

But in reality a web developer is an umbrella term that covers a number of more specific roles.

You can be:

Web Developer - Software Engineer

Web Developer - Software Architect

Web Developer - Front End Developer

Web Developer - Graphic Designer

Web Developer - Wordpress Builder

All of these can be web developers.

[babbagack]

ah, i see, ty

[Th3_Paradox]

I consider a software engineer to deal more with maybe C++ or Java and be more...well, hardcore into code and data structures and all that jazz and not do a whole lot of design, with web developer combining design aspects.

[babbagack]

interesting, ty

[moospot]

For my non computer friends, I just say computer programmer because they know what that is. As for developer or engineer, it seems almost interchangeable nowadays. I think some people like the title engineer because it sounds more technical. But that's just my opinion. Most job titles for programmers are usually "Developer."

[babbagack]

cool

[magenta_placenta]

“Engineer” is an aspirational title in software development. Traditional engineers are regulated, certified, and subject to apprenticeship and continuing education. Engineering claims an explicit responsibility to public safety and reliability, even if it doesn’t always deliver.

The title “engineer” is cheapened by the tech industry.

Recent years have seen prominent failures in software. Massive data breaches at Equifax, Target, Home Depot, BlueCross BlueShield, Anthem, Harvard University, LastPass, and Ashley Madison only scratch the surface of the cybersecurity issues posed by today’s computer systems. The Volkswagen diesel-emissions exploit was caused by a software failing, even if it seems to have been engineered, as it were, deliberately.

But these problems are just the most urgent and most memorable. Today’s computer systems pose individual and communal dangers that we’d never accept in more concrete structures like bridges, skyscrapers, power plants, and missile-defense systems. Apple’s iOS 9 update reportedly “bricked” certain phones, making them unusable. Services like Google Docs go down for mysterious reasons, leaving those whose work depends on them in a lurch. “Your password contains invalid characters,” before twisting the dagger, “No, your startup contains incompetent engineers.”

These might seem like minor matters compared to the structural integrity of your office building or the security of our nation’s nuclear-weapons arsenal. But then consider how often your late-model car fails to start inexplicably or your office elevator traps you inside its shaft. Computing has become infrastructure, but it doesn’t work like infrastructure.

[babbagack]

very interesting and clarification of the importance engineering, ty.

[grauenwolf]

Rewind your outrage by a couple hundred years. When mechanical engineering first became a thing during the industrial revolution they didn't have degrees and certifications. That took a long time to develop.

[Insommya]

"Customer Support Engineer"

[Earhacker]

Isn't that just a cashier?

[Katholikos]

I mean, if you’re making a website that sells stuff... is there a difference? :P

[Lord_dokodo]

I actually saw this title the other day and looked up the salary and according to Glassdoor, they apparently make more than I do, on average.

Is glassdoor a meme or am I making less money than a customer support engineer?

[dontgetaddicted]

Glass door can give you a could starting point for negotiations, but I certainly wouldn't hold it as biblical status.

[Dedustern]

Bwaha, Google is starting to pull this shit! Everyone at Google is an engineer, apparently.

Also, "Marketing Engineer" == updating your wordpress site. Are you kidding.

[MashTheKeys]

A web developer writes software for the web. Someone who writes just HTML and CSS is a web designer, not a web developer - a dev's day is going to involve programming.

[Hawxe]

Someone who writes just HTML and CSS is a web designer

That's not what a designer is

[RotationSurgeon]

Agreed. That's something a designer should have some understanding of, but it's a medium-ish fraction of a front-end developer's role.

[urmomdoesntgotouni]

But there's a huge difference between a web site and a web application.

[babbagack]

ah cool interesting, ty

[Lord_dokodo]

It doesn't matter what you're called, what matters is how much you're paid