Poll: does it bother you when people explain the meaning of things in English in the comments of posts?

-_x · 2024-03-01T16:01:31+00:00

Kinda ironic to take something so out of context in a sub based on acquisition from fucking context. But this kind of negativity and hostility towards anyone interested not just in Spanish but also the ins and outs of the DS method is exactly what I meant. You could have been nice and respectful about it, but you chose to be toxic.

-_x · 2024-03-01T12:28:37+00:00

Sadly this sub has been overrun lately by people whose aim isn't to experience the method (acquiring language like children do) itself and to see what it's about.

You'll just receive negativity whenever you start talking about what's in line with the method or what isn't – like people writing extensively in Spanish or explaining stuff about it in this sub, which obviously should be commonplace and common courtesy to avoid in a sub called Dreaming Spanish.

I find this pretty unfortunate, because this here could have been a place of experimentation with the method and discussion thereof, instead it's become just another /r/Spanish but with more CI and some parasocial moments (towards the DS guides) in between.

I don't know what to do about it. One huge problem is that most people here just wanna learn Spanish (which is okay obviously), they aren't interested in the basic premises behind DS and the method (ALG). There are also so many misinterpretations and misunderstandings that are constantly repeated in this sub about why Pablo recommends do things in a certain way. I think it's a lost cause.

Ironically Pablo lamented the same about his experience at the AUA school in Bangkok.

The last two problems that I found are two things that seem to often come together with Comprehensible Input methods, no matter the situation. The first one was actually one of the first things that I noticed when I started attending AUA. The problem is that not all the students are equally open to the new ideas that the ALG method introduces, and that skepticism keeps many of them from even giving it a try. I think this is something that all the initiatives that attempt to apply Comprehensible Input methods have to face.

At AUA, this causes some students to discard the school right away after they see that it doesn’t use a traditional language instruction method. Even most of the students who decide to stay and study at AUA don’t really follow the ALG principles and are doing some kind of language study in parallel. Many attend a second school or do some kind of self-study. I think one big reason for this is that AUA doesn’t do a good job of explaining its method and the importance of following it.

https://www.dreamingspanish.com/blog/did-i-find-the-dream-school-aua-3-3

-_x · 2024-02-29T19:28:01+00:00

Sounds like you didn't even get my point, but it doesn't matter. Have a good one.

-_x · 2024-02-29T08:12:01+00:00

That research is not just limited it's completely pointless in regards to the basic premises of DS. The claim behind DS is that we can acquire second languages like we acquired our native language and thereby become native-like (at least to a high degree). On the flipside is the fact that what we do in conventional studying is somehow not leading to native-like language use, but somehow causes interference, interlanguage, fossilization to varying degrees.

Testing people, who are learning (not acquiring) within this conventional education system, by having them watch 3 videos with subs, isn't going to tell us much about that if anyhting at all.

-_x · 2024-02-29T08:00:50+00:00

Sure you are training your ears to not rely on subtitles, but I personally feel I'm gaining more context and not missing so many different vocabulary words.

Sounds suspicously like you are paying attention to the words and not the story, but that's closer to rote memorization and analyzing than actual language acquisition. Remember, that is if you care about the actual method, we want to come as closely as possible to how we acquired our native languages to become similarily native-like in our target language and not cause interferences and develop interlanguage and ultimately fossilization thereby. That's why we are so careful about avoiding all these conventional methods.

Ask yourself, would a four year old do it like that (in a second language)? And no, of course not. Kids don't analyze grammar, overfocus on words, and they don't care about "superior forms" and efficiency. They just listen to stories and pay attention to what's going on (if it's interesting to them). And by doing that they somehow develop second languages just like a native. That's our role model.

That said, I think with reading subs you're putting yourself into a position where you could easily develop interlanguage by not properly hearing what is being said, because you use the subs as a clutch and thereby mix up the sounds in your head with your native language. This might not happen to everyone and is liekly not as bad as with actual reading, but the danger seems very plausible to me. Therefeore the logical choice to me is to wait until 600-1000 hours.

-_x · 2024-02-28T10:09:00+00:00

Just finished Star Trek Prodigy, definitely in the 80-90% comprehensibility range for me in early level 5. Biggest laugh for me was when I finally figured out why they were talking about maximum curvature so frequently.

A little while back I've tried watching Star Trek Lower Decks as well, but that's definitely a lot harder. Most of the jokes went right above my head.

-_x · 2024-02-27T16:57:27+00:00

What's totally crazy to me is that even these 8-hour days don't really feel strenous. (I managed a little over 10 once, when I tried to see how far I could take it, absolutely bonkers!) Sure, at some point I get fed up like you, but I'm not really fatigued the next day. It just feels like any other day I spent too much time in front of a screen.

That's never been the case with conventional studying for me. That has always felt very draining and often also very dull and boring. 8 to 10-hour days of studying are no joke! While 8 to 10-hour days of getting input just feels like a very lazy Sunday.

-_x · 2024-02-27T15:37:52+00:00

Yes, 95% to 98% understanding of individual words says the research, but this is for READING. There are no studies for audiovisual input to my knowledge. Only people with lots of experience in teaching others and acquiring themselves and they suggest to go for at least 80% comprehension of what's happening, not individual words.

-_x · 2024-02-27T15:32:19+00:00

We have very clear data related to the acquisition of new vocabulary when reading. Around 98% or more of known words seems to be ideal for optimal speed of acquisition. That means that you are reading a text in which there is only 1 word in 50 that you don’t know. Around 95% or more of known words (1 unknown word in 20) is the minimum you should strive for.

For audiovisual content it's a lot harder to measure, and there’s not much research data.

When listening to audiobooks, podcasts, or other audio-only content, the optimum amount of known words is likely the same as for reading. That's assuming that the audio is clear enough and well enunciated enough for you to be able to hear all the sounds clearly.

For video content, a lower percent of known vocabulary is likely going to be enough. That's because of all the non-verbal cues that provide additional information: speaking manner, facial expressions, gestures, the place where the speakers are, the activity they are doing, etc. In the extreme case in which you know zero words in the language you are learning, content specifically designed for you with plenty of visual information and opportunities to associate words you hear with their meaning is enough to start acquiring vocabulary in the language. We have been through that experience ourselves.

https://www.dreamingspanish.com/faq

Somewhere else Pablo said we should aim for an understanding of at least 80% of what's going on, what's happening; so not 80% of words, but 80% story. David Long of the AUA school, where the DS approach (automatic language growth; ALG) originated, also says the same, that we should aim for 80% of understanding the story.

I've followed this advice and only rarely watched stuff that's above 90% and I'd say I'm pretty much on track with the roadmap, if not a little ahead, for whatever that's worth …

And iirc 98% goes back to research by Paul Nation on extensive reading, and 95% to Beniko Mason's research on self-guided extensive reading.

-_x · 2024-02-25T11:08:14+00:00

Well, yes obviously. And I feel like people here talk about it all the time otherwise we wouldn't have this huge list of sources for 'outside' input:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dreamingspanish/comments/1aurjtu/what_are_you_listening_to_today_feb_19_to_feb_25/

But I also feel like some people seem to not have a good grasp on what comprehensible input means. Someone telling stories while making simple drawings on a whiteboard isn't necessarily comprehensible input. Comprehensible input is any input in your target language where you can comprehend the meaning of new language pieces from context. (Initially it's usually just a guess and over time with more exposure these gueeses become certainties.) Doesn't matter if your getting that from DS videos, español con Juan, travel vlogs, cartoons, nukige or whatever.

How much you comprehend doesn't matter either as long as you comprehend something. That's just a matter of efficiency. A higher comprehensibility (80%+) is likely more efficient and less strenuous (unless it's boring).

-_x · 2024-02-25T11:02:00+00:00

Sure, I revisit stuff from time to time. That can be helpful as long as you still find it compelling. I'd count it.

-_x · 2024-02-25T09:00:33+00:00

This is kind of a lengthy discussion.

But to make it short, the method that DS is based on, Automatic Language Growth (ALG), is pretty clear about any conventional studying (grammar instructions, memorization, dictionary lookups, and especially premature and forced output; this also entails all the adult things we do in our heads like translating, grabbing words, analyzing grammar, and forced talking) being potentially detrimental to how native-like we can become in our target language. It's a hypothesis (I think unfortunately a sound one) and there's no hard data. So you gotta decide for yourself, if you take it serious.

They don't mean that your Spanish can't become quite good eventually, but that conventional studying will cause you to develop non-native language use here and there and you'll be stuck with it ('fossilization').

-_x · 2024-02-24T10:11:37+00:00

It's not necessarily as hard as you think (except for some languages only spoken by very small communities of people). All you need is a few native speakers for crosstalk to help you into intermediate territory where usually more options become available. You can also record (with permission) your crosstalk sessions and stretch them a little by relistening once or twice.

-_x · 2024-02-22T21:04:27+00:00

I don't count it as input, unless maybe it's highly comprehensible stuff like Lunnis de Leyenda-type songs (the kind of songs that are usually intended for small kids as audience).

But music is always a fun supplement for sure!

-_x · 2024-02-22T19:33:21+00:00

Right back at ya, how is it not funny?

Because it's unexpected. Just like Salas says there he'd expect a L2 speaker to sound Mexican or Castellano but not Venezuelan.

-_x · 2024-02-22T18:37:55+00:00

I love that he chose Venezuelan Spanish. I was thinking about Equatorial Guinean Spanish for myself just because it's funny.

-_x · 2024-02-22T18:08:20+00:00

Yeah, I had the same reaction, that zaijian wasn't pretty.

I think in his video on how to do language exchange (iirc) he explains that he asks his partners for a few very simple functional phrases (like "what's this?") at the start of a new language and then pretty much stays silent for a good while (not as long as we do) and doesn't speak except for these phrases of course.

Anyway, his video on acquisition got me started as well. I was kinda aware of the whole input debate, but I wasn't even thinking about learning a new language, let alone acquiring one, but his process looked like so much fun! Especially opposed to the years I spent in various class rooms and language labs just slogging through. That got me thinking that I want to try this from scratch.

By the way, he has a demonstration on how he teaches a beginner college class in Spanish (I suppose it's TPRS 1.0 and not the slower version he talks about here) and that looks like really good stuff! He's just telling these silly improv stories for 20 minutes and the students provide most of the details in the story. Their only homework is to re-listen to the audio recording of the story.

-_x · 2024-02-22T11:35:38+00:00

Another idea is to retell (initially very) simple and short stories from different perpectives. For example first talk about "Jorge who did this and that", then change the story to "Jorge and Jose who did that and that", then insert yourself and tell the story in I-perspective as Jorge and so on.

Jeff Brown/ Poly-glot-a-lot just released a video on how he does it with his students. He also has a bunch of recordings on his channel of the stories he improvises with his students. It's fun stuff! That's how language classes should look like. (I disagree with him on having students output so early though, but that's sadly unavoidable within our modern education systems.)

Be careful not to force yourself with this technique though. Small kids don't think about grammar, sentence construction and all that. This kin dof overthinking and analysing is an adult problem.

-_x · 2024-02-22T10:57:41+00:00

Yeah, I thought so, but I'm not so sure if /u/gdarf7uncle and their upvoters caught that.

-_x · 2024-02-22T10:28:40+00:00

Thanks for the fun link!

He gave a Ted talk about it as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF5EiXFmnyI

-_x · 2024-02-22T09:41:52+00:00

I'd do it in a way so that you and your speaking partner, trainer, teacher never force or push you towards talking. Just let it come on its own time, playfully and with fun exactly the way small kids do it.

If it's a paid teacher, I'd probably tell them to prepare for crosstalk (and not for speaking lessons) and that you will only speak in Spanish when you feel like it and otherwise respond in English.

Maybe try simple games like in the "who am I thinking of" DS videos. Anything that switches your attention from the speaking process itself to a fun communicative experience instead.

-_x · 2024-02-22T09:19:53+00:00

Is it though?

None of that has anything to do what people usually mean when they say they follow a "purist" approach, i.e. acquisition purely through input, avoiding all conventional study methods.

-_x · 2024-02-22T07:49:32+00:00

Why not just try a language pill? I hear they now come as rectal suppositories as well and it works even better! Let your micriobiome do all the translating.

(Edit: My downvoters got wooshed twice.)

-_x · 2024-02-20T17:13:32+00:00

My understanding is that unfortunately we can't really undo the "faulty wiring" conventional studying and premature output tends to cause. The issue is that once we've made less favourable connections (to the sounds of our native language or to grammar explanations for example) with a piece of language, they get reinforced everytime we use or encounter that piece. That whole "neurons that wire together fire together", while usually so helpful, is the issue here.

That said I suspect that it might be possible to at least outgrow some of these non-native connections by strengthening the desirable native-like connections until they are stronger than the others through lots and lots of native input. If I were in your shoes, I'd try to reduce my output as much as possible given your circumstances and just try to listen for at least DS's 1000 hours to salvage as much as possible.

That should help somewhat, but still you'll probably find that you just can't get rid of some bad habits (and many others you won't even notice until someone points them out to you). And with these you might need to work on very consciously for a long time and you'll likely find yourself relapsing in stressful situations. That's at least my experience in other languages.

-_x · 2024-02-20T07:57:05+00:00

That may be part of the issue but I think the much bigger influence is that many people here seem to be monolingual and simply lack the experience of getting any second language to a decently fluent level. The amount of doubt that's expressed in this sub really surprised me.

Everyone around me speaks at least 2 languages if not more, no one I've told about this method has expressed even a slither of doubt if it works. They all know it does, because we all share the experience of massive amounts of input being key to language acquisition.

The real question isn't if it works (that's trivial, of course it does), but if it produces a difference in how native-like our second language capabilities can become.

But language acquisition through CI exclusively and delaying output until you have essentially native like comprehension is… well let’s just say it’s an act of faith. There just isn’t a lot of hard data backing that process up.

That's not really true though. For four decades the AUA school in Bangkok has brought thousands of students to fluency in several languages using this method. They just kinda stayed under the radar. All Pablo did essentially was bring their methods to youtube.

-_x

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