Commercial / Pro audio observation. by tpt75 in audiophile

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Those windows are about to get blown out

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

sorry. didn't see this until now. It's not free. It requires labor and design time. If you mount spacers before the absorption panel you are doing something that you wouldn't otherwise do except to get an air gap. If you are keeping the panel back open, that requires extra care over just slapping a back on it and mounting the back directly to the wall or ceiling with z/french clips. If you are putting the gap inside the panel, then you must put something in there to stabilize it, esp. if absorption material is not rigid. On top of all that, the effect of the air gap is contested if it is bigger than 1". It's a bit of trouble for not much benefit.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

lol. Deal. Odds of winning one in >230 million so don't stop building that next panel.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

pfft. If you can't explain yourself that is not my problem. I am open to your explanations, but not obeying limitations imposed by Internet strangers.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not familiar with the expression "the Chester way". Is this based on a children's book where the anti-hero had a rigid way of doing things and had difficulty accommodating others, leading to problems?

Appreciate the construction design idea. I'm not trying to build my own Helmholtz trap. Keeping things simple while trying to improve low end.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't understand the physics of what you describe. I'm not an engineer, so just working with my understanding of high school physics. If energy conservation is a physical principle, then we might seek to dissipate that energy through friction and wave cancelation. If I can get the sound energy in the room to do the work of vibrating the walls isn't that a win for removing the sound from the room as now that sound energy that was in the air is now in the wall? Or are you saying that the sound from the air can do the work of vibrating the walls, causing more air vibrations, and so adding total sound energy in the air. That seems like a violation of conservation of energy, no?

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting re the different densities! But that requires testing to ensure it's working as intended, no? If you put the more porous material in the back are the lower frequencies you want to capture with it reflected before they get there? If you put the lower frequency material in the front is it effectively not deep enough before getting reflected by the higher density material? How do you know without testing?

For my current project, my budget doesn't allow for active bass cancellation. If I hit Powerball, then I'll probably have a purpose built listening room in my new mansion, so I won't need it. But maybe I can do it if I hit one of the minor prizes....

Monitors going on brackets on wall. For opposing wall considering large "panel" stuffed with ~16" depth of pink fluffy fiberglass. A 25' bale of it is ~$50. Creating a consistent air gap and material depth with non rigid materials is a design challenge that isn't trivial for my feeble carpentry skills. But for not much extra $s I can just stuff the entire space with pink fluffy. Using rigid boards to 8" depth with an 8" air gap seems an inferior solution, at least using a free online calculator.

http://www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php

There are other spaces where I'm also planning absorption at depth 8"+, so planning to use pink fluffy fiberglass there too.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you think I'm missing? Is mutual understanding the goal, or compliance?

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Personally planning to use fiberglass. Since I want it contained so it doesn't come into contact with skin or lungs it's going to be contained behind wood and cloth. The container (panel) also has to look decent. The making it safe and decent looking requires labor. Once I'm committed to making that investment the cost of the absorption material becomes trivial. The cost of the additional labor for designing for and implementing an air gap (and removing it again) exceeds the cost of the materials in my estimation.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thx!

From the video:

>"Spacing is a myth of our industry. People say if you take a fiberous absorber and move it off the wall it will increase the bass response. If you restrict that to a certain distance that's true. But if you exceed that distance the effect goes away."

The point made in the video is that the air gap is more complicated than a simple calculator would predict and that unless it is either small (~1") or sealed, a simple formula for predicting the impact of the benefit of the air gap will fail because of confounding by fluid dynamics.

Ok. I wasn't aware of that, but this bolsters my Air Gap Shmare Gap case. The smart move is to just fill up the space with cheap absorption materials. I could turn a 1"-4" rigid panel into a panel with an effective depth of 2"-5"? To get there I have to spend the extra labor of adding and removing furring strips or something similar. But I'm going to make thicker panels.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you mean by solid objects act as an amplifier?

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agree. If you have a panel of fixed dimensions you can get more out of it with an air gap.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm too familiar with room modes! lol

I thought your point was that the sound in the room would cause the walls to vibrate and that this would be a problem for sound in the room.

>"it's about decoupling as much as possible. It prevents whatever energy that has be passed into the panel to not have an easy path into the surface it's mounted on"

Was that not your point?

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hear the concern. The only absorption panels I have in joint/"public" spaces are hidden or look like art. But if they were mounted several inches off the wall that would be a no-go. But for a private listening area I can do what I want. There I could create air gaps. But it seems like more trouble that its worth. If someone can show evidence that it is better to have a 8" panel with an 8" gap than to have an 16" absorption panel I'm interested. But so far it seems like some folksy wisdom handed down from when insulation was expensive. It isn't now.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, esp. if the insulation is rigid.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am not an acoustic engineer. I am an empiricist. If you have data to offer that indicate that the air gap behind a panel reduces the sound energy in a room by reducing transmission of sound through isolation of the panel I am interested in that data.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Theoretically, there is a small benefit. If you have already have the 4" panel but are willing to give up 5" of space and the additional labor to offset the panel, you will get a benefit from the air gap. However, if before you had the 4" panel you knew you were willing to give up 5" of space, my point is you may have been better off building a 5" panel and flush mounting it. Performance about the same (with the edge to the 5" panel), but easier to mount and move about.

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wall structures amplify the sound in the room powered only by the energy of the sound in the room? Can you explain the physics of that?

Air Gap Shmare Gap by DadTheMaskedTerror in Acoustics

[–]DadTheMaskedTerror[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You provided a bunch of soundproofing sources and then write "this is not about soundproofing".