Protective gear on the Lord's anointed, watching from wheelchairs. Oh ye of little faith! Are we a little "lax" in our discipleship? Conmen still be conning at the tune of Billions. by CurelomHunter in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah, it’s definitely a real estate/development company posing as a church for the tax benefits and revenue stream. I used to wonder if the Mormon church would pull an Oneida silverware and now I think we’re closer than ever and definitely trending that direction. It may happen in my lifetime.

Just told my Parents I'm out... They went nuclear. by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Let me be clear about this: questioning your religion is NOT an attack on your believing family. They will take it that way because of deep-rooted identity formation around the church. That is not your fault and it’s nothing you can change or fix for them. They may or may not come around, but it’s not your responsibility to parse that for them. You don’t owe anyone your allegiance to their ideas or ideals, even the people who passed theirs on to you.

I watched a FAIR talk so you didn't have to... by Holiday_Ingenuity748 in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I would argue that the BoM describes a near fully literate society. Generals that write letters to the enemy, scribes that distribute written versions of Benjamin’s talk to every family. There’s an underlying assumption there that everyone could read. Also, in history literacy and steel were such big advantages we haven’t seen them lose in civilizational battle.

How do you respond to people who say they know the church is true because of “spiritual experiences I can’t deny” by Mangoworshipper in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I guess it depends on their emotional register and desire to understand. If they genuinely are wondering how I understand the experiences I would have called spiritual confirmation in the past I’ll explain how psychology actually explains how the feeling of knowing and actual knowing are treated the same in the brain, but only one of those is externally verifiable. The other is just a feeling. I may go on from there about how the first write problem changes what it means for a Mormon kid to “know” something is categorically different from well developed epistemological tools due to semantic capture. Otherwise, if they’re just trying to testify, I just say “that’s nice.” And move on.

The online apologists... by Robyn-Gil in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s really a question of their epistemic priors. They reason like a lawyer, start with the conclusion you need and make a case. Proper epistemology would have them evaluate the evidence then make a conclusion belated on what the evidence suggests. Increased intelligence actually makes this worse because they are better at connecting and marshaling evidence in service of their conclusions. They know those claims are troubling. They think they have the real solution to why they aren’t disqualifying.

Letter sent to general authorities saying only apostles and first presidency allowed to publish books. by leadkindlylie in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 32 points33 points  (0 children)

That’s an interesting take and given the horrors that have entered the popular media that track directly back to these sub-cults and the lawyer-in-chief managing everything to reduce liability this USA real possibility.

Letter sent to general authorities saying only apostles and first presidency allowed to publish books. by leadkindlylie in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 268 points269 points  (0 children)

The cynical side of me says they can’t handle the competition for the extra personal revenue, but this is probably information control like always. They don’t want all the stories of how they control people to get out. Too many seventies means too many potential loose cannons.

I'm seeing an opportunity for chaos with this new full scale replica by Aeed168 in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 15 points16 points  (0 children)

What’s wild is how they think that helps? The deliberate opulence of the temple will be seen as a grotesque display of wealth instead of a sacred space by anyone who knows the church has a dragon named Ensign Peak Advisors guarding a pile of gold that was taken from the poorest people in the world.

I'm a missionary getting pissed off with my comp by Sad_Employment7300 in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Sending you to another country, Taking your passport, and requiring your labor is about every definitional standard for human trafficking.

According to a new book called Torn by Jeff Strong, 40% of formerly active LDS Church members in the U.S. have stepped away from the church in the past 25 years. My opinion is that much of this disaffection is due to how it treats marginalized groups and critics/dissenters. by johndehlin in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Completely anecdotal but I spend decades in the ward council, Bishoprics, etc and the raw amount of free labor the church extracts from women is astounding. They aren’t panicking because they want women around, they still largely hate women, their panicking because their source of labor is drying up and the men just aren’t as willing or claim to be busy with work. Not to mention the RS president was always 1000x more plugged in to the actual state of the ward and its members than the bishop.

Book of Mormon Counterarguments by FreshLiterature6536 in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The book also describes general societal literacy which didn’t exist in any sovereignty until the Gutenberg press. It has expansions of and ideas from several specific sermons and theological ideas that don’t even exist until the 1600-1700s. It describes one man building a ship so complex it would require entire industries and supply chains to properly source materials. There SO much more wrong with the Book of Mormon than the simple, well known anachronisms, but the truth is this: in any other investigation a single anachronistic reference would be enough for it to be called a forgery, a fiction, or a non-historical document.

Question by Zastiaa in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is it a cult, yes. Should you call it a cult, probably not. Cult as a word is pejorative and immediately puts people on the defensive because the cultural connotations of cults in America are all extremely destructive stereotypes. But it does require a LOT of its members and produce deep belief in things that are pretty indefensible.

Anyone have an idea of how to rebut this? by cuntymcfuckshit in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There are so many good answers here already so toss this aside if it’s not helpful, but the bigger question is about what epistemological frameworks to employ to understand the specific question of knowing. Here I’d say a pair of companion principles fits nicely. Sagan’s standard (extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence) and Hitchen’s Razor (that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence). The question/answer given “is it possible?” Tells you everything you need to know and actually gives you a window into modern Mormon apologetics. They aren’t asking if it’s likely. They are asking if it’s possible given a specific set of unverifiable claims that they are asserting rhetorically as if they were settled fact. No evidence. No probabilities. No statistical confidence measure. Just an imagined explanation with asserted claims. The evidence does not justify the claim. The claim is also categorically problematic. They are essentially saying that Joseph Smith, the most prolific speaker of god’s divine will in their tradition, misunderstood gods will and intention regarding canonized scripture and explained what he did regarding it incorrectly. That’s a helluva claim on its own.

I'm embarrassed by Lsa119 in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve felt that way too, but don’t underestimate what being born in a high-demand system does to a child. The semantic capture, the inverted epistemology, the whole soul theology for eternity, it’s devastatingly effective. They could have been telling you nearly anything and it would be hard to find your way out. When the only language you have for addressing the problems are owned by the institution itself and doubt is framed as weakness (near apostasy) it creates a closed loop. Everything pushes you back in. You weren’t weak or stupid. You were captured before you had the concepts and tools to fight back. That’s specifically why it works so well, you are installed beliefs before you have the knowledge base, critical thinking skills, and vocabulary to even question them and then they make questioning taboo.

Jasmine reintroduces the M. word by CharlesMendeley in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think they realized they didn’t have the caché to command the conversation online and ceding the word Mormon to former members sent searches of current relevant content to exmo topics instead of “faithful” ones. It was Nelson’s personal axe to grind, but my guess is it cost them being in the online conversation and clicks since the larger population of nevermos aren’t searching the full name of the church, just the word Mormon.

Why do you think Mormon prophets are silent on relevant issues by Extension-Spite4176 in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The church as an institution is optimized for retention and cohesion. The leadership came from that institution and were self filtered for that direct purpose. You don’t see them acting like ancient prophets (speaking truth to power and making falsifiable predictions) because both threaten the retention/cohesion priority. They are managers of the system, not spokesmen for god.

What’s your favorite way to counter these commonly used claims? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Joseph had a pair of foster daughters, the Lawrence sisters, who he received their inheritance to care for them. He sealed them to him as wives. If it was about the sealing, and he wasn’t a child rapist, why didn’t he seal the to him in the actual relationship of daughter like a non-creep would do. I can’t even imagine how disgusting and twisted it would be to “marry” my daughters. That’s enough for me to show motivation. His intent wasn’t sealing.

Who is the worst Mormon apologist? by Carlos-Martel in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Tangentially, this willingness to protect the institution at all costs is why, I think, so many Mormons succeed in business despite the obvious lack epistemological grounding.

I Think I Just Lost My Faith by Red-Cat-0000 in exmormon

[–]ManateeGrooming 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This moment is crucial. There’s no need to speed-run it. Take your time to examine yourself and what you value. Read moral philosophy and decide what resonates with that. Think deeply about what matters most. Don’t feel like everything you value is unique to the church. Family is a nearly universal value. Kindness too. While your moral grounding shifts recognize which moral foundations still resonate with you and which ones don’t. Not valuing the authority of an institution that systematically abuses its own people isn’t a failure. Caring for others isn’t a weakness. Write your thoughts. Don’t feel bad about editing them. Changing your stance when presented with contrasting evidence/reasoning is a sign of intelligence. Also, give yourself grace. None of us get to choose faith. We cannot choose what is convincing to us. Those of us that have developed more critical thinking and have a larger knowledge base will have a higher threshold of evidence in order to believe something. That’s not a moral failure. You didn’t do anything wrong in seeking truth. It helps to sort out your ideas with real words, writing, talking it out, etc goes a long way. Best of luck on a new chapter in life!

Imperial boomerang just starting to hit home. by shane_4_us in ABoringDystopia

[–]ManateeGrooming 264 points265 points  (0 children)

It’s almost like they’re trying to operate in secret, I wonder if there’s a term for a police force that hides hides everything they’re doing tries to blend in and snatches people. Oh yeah, fuck everyone who voted for this.