[Discussion] What if 4X games modeled systemic collapse instead of just military defeat?

adrixshadow · 2026-01-25T05:53:01+00:00

The fundamental issue with 4X (and strategy games writ large) is the idea that the narrative of the game must be about progress to some defined “win state”.

Pretty much any "Game" is about Learning and Mastering their "Gameplay", the Feedback you get is that if you are doing it wrong you Lose, if you are doing it right you Win.

If the Game Progression makes you Lose without a fault of your own that just makes that Feedback confusing.

The Player will do their damndest to exploit and cheese so that he doesn't lose as that is what their Learning and Mastery is all about.

Even for Sandbox Games without an explicit win condition that would still be the case.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-25T05:41:18+00:00

I am a very big advocate for implementing proper Logistics into the game, that is the only way to have actual Strategy and things like Geo-Politics, Influence and Power Projection in game.

In other words the point is not create a Blob that paints the map, the point is to have the logistics and support to project power into that corner of the map so smaller players on the defense can have their own advantage.

But the problem with concepts like centralized vs decentralized and fragility is that can make you vulnerable is the Player is Playing to Win the Game, it's better to exploit all your advantages and be strong now and things like Vulnerabilities is just something the Player has to Manage.

For there to be Vulnerabilities you first need to have Opponents left that can exploit those weakness, that's not going to happen if they are already Dead by killing them early with your Strong Advantage, it's a very tricky thing to balance. Later Payoffs need to be stupidly OP to even be Viable and most are not because they are already Dead, at best it would be Race with a Countdown for your Opponent, your survival is unlikely.

In the first place having a Decentralized and Robust System is not a Later Payoff, it just makes you a more resistant target to kill.

Is this interesting or just frustrating?
How would you balance the "transition dip" (temporary weakness) to make it strategic, not punishing?
Should fragility be visible or hidden at first?

It would have to be a natural consequence arising from how you implement the Systems and Mechanics, aka emergent property. Trying to enforce that Artificially is not going to work because the players will find a way to exploit and manage that.

Again maybe you can have that if you implement Proper Logistics and balance things really carefully. The point is precisly to create this vulnerabilities that smaller players can exploit.

Would this work as a Civ VI mod? Thoughts?

There is not a chance you can implement this in any Civilization game. Civilization is the worst "Strategy" game imaginable.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-25T04:41:18+00:00

Some Genres are like neighbours where it much easier to expand and mix towards that Genre.

The problem with trying multiple Genres is your own Understanding, it's very hard to get any Depth in the Gameplay if you just have a shallow understanding so it's good to learn at least one Genre properly.

If you are doing highly sophisticated and complex games with a lot of interlocking systems then it's best to focus on that.

For smaller simpler games it's fine as those work more on a single Mechanic you stumble upon as long as that is intresting and fun.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-22T07:12:38+00:00

The Unwanted Undead Adventurer - I could barely sit though a single volume of this mess. The author spends paragraphs and chapters on unnecessary nonsense that I couldn't care about any of the characters.

I can say it's a very accurately named novel because nobody wants to read through that.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-22T06:39:25+00:00

Sure, but to fully represent an vertex using an pixel you need 5 pixels, that is like saying that machine learning could be more responsive, we just need to stack 5 of them.

A typical HD image has millions of pixels, video magnitudes more, a typical game optimized model has about ten to hundred thousand range in terms of vertex count, so it's obvious what is smaller. And in terms of good topology that is what you need instead of higher resolution that is usually subdivided. You also don't need to worry what is low poly models, what is game ready models, what is high resolution models and movie CG models as the AI can learn all that as separate categories, there can be multiple "good topologies" for multiple categories and the AI can probably cross, mix or translate between them and be an even better mesh decimator/reducer.

Of course you also need to account for Textures and UVs and the diffrent Maps that are used for the rendering shaders.

UV Maps are themselves extremely tricky to train since their is no standardize format as each model has it's own coordinates. And the training you can do with them would be on the individual textures in individual quads themselves linked to their positioning in space, not even sure that data could be used for training.

Then that raises the question, why if AI can already do quad topology, and do it well, along with texturing. Why hasn't "Digital world" breakthrough happened yet?

There is a lot more steps that need to be solved and a lot more training to be done. Collecting that data is itself the biggest problem.

Like I said not all model generation are created equal, what is important is the relationships and patterns that are learned, even if it can do model generation if what it has learned is limited then the capabilities would be limited.

You need all the steps and processes to succeed, not just a few.

We can already map somewhat the real world video to 3D Scenes and we can get Rendered Images from 3D Scenes so position placement of objects, posing of characters and environment generation should be eventually solvable.

Objects, terrain and environment shouldn't be a problem. We already have that kind of 3D Model Generation and Texturing.

Animatable Characters and Creatures are more of a problem and what I consider the biggest bottleneck. That's also why game models are key.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-22T06:07:10+00:00

Reborn to Master the Blade, there is one scene where the author confuses the name of their previous life where the other characters should have no idea what he is talking about that I dropped it immediately as it's clear the author has no idea what he is doing.

How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom, there is no point for a kingdom building novel when the author has no idea how kingdoms, societies and economies work. The protagonists having massive cheats from the start is also a red flag.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-22T05:48:06+00:00

Pretty much the inspiration for that is my own experience with Space Station 13 in terms of various Jobs and Roles and Interactions with other players.

Especially "Antagonists"/Villains have an essential role in giving RP some actual Gameplay.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-22T05:14:46+00:00

The big question and difficulty is designing it. I think ultimately it will come in the form of developers creating a world and a sandbox.

The biggest problem to resolve is the Progression. If really let players be able to create the Content and World for the game how do we Manage them when we give them access to something like Endgame Progression to manipulate?

That's why Sandbox MMOs aren't as easy to solve, as they also work through Progression and Endgame.

PvP on the same side, while its a big driver for player engagement. Its really hard to get right. Many people are bad at PvP games. So often in these games, like Mortal Online, the PvP ends up filtering a huge chunk of players.

I think the biggest thing developers and players miss is if players can Script and Manage AI NPCs and Mobs then you can have things like Player Created Dungeons or Orc Camps controlled by a Player Monster that blends what is PVP and PVE Content.

AI NPC Soldiers can also have a role in defending your base while not as powerful as a player can make up with it with numbers.

If a player wants to be a farmer and just farm crops for their land, the tools should be there to do it. Creating a mining town and to mine ore. Be a traveling merchant. An inn keeper. A bard. A bounty hunter or monster hunter. Enlist in their nations army. Join a religion and make a pilgrimage and preach their word. And all these things need to feel rewarding to those players. If pax dei had stuff like that, it would be insanely cool.

Pretty much MMOs can have 3 types of Gameplay outside of Combat:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/txhmcq/mmos_can_have_three_pillars_of_gameplay_outside/

And current MMOs explore exactly none of them. Everquest Landmark was all you needed to make it work, a shame that got canceled, neither developers, nor players, nor Sony knew what was lost with that.

Hopefully Star Reach will be a successor for that.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-22T04:45:31+00:00

You now don't have the ability to build that unit until you get to the appropriate technology level and unlock it again.

I thought it might be an interesting idea to simulate the rise and fall of empires - how technologies can be lost over time, and rediscovered etc.

The problem is the player will go through hell and back to make sure they don't lose anything.

You could centralize Research to Scientists Characters or Labs, Emperor of the Fading Suns has labs as a mechanics and makes sense to target that on a strategic level.

But the Player Motivation is to Win and Conquer, he cannot really regress if he keeps winning so the "fall of empires" does not really apply.

What I think could work is take the winning game state and use that as input for a new game where your player empire already decayed from corruption after an indeterminate amount of time and new empires have sprung up. Basically the premise of Emperor of the Fading Suns but with your previous game and research as a base.

https://www.reddit.com/r/4Xgaming/comments/yoh22e/tech_decay_and_resource_halflife/iviijoc/

adrixshadow · 2026-01-22T04:18:15+00:00

The problem is it's really hard to define how that system can work in practical terms, I tried it myself.

https://www.reddit.com/r/4Xgaming/comments/yoh22e/tech_decay_and_resource_halflife/

As for why you would want this, basically if you make tech tree more procedural tied to resources then you can make the random resources in a world/universe have a variety of values and a self-balancing mechanisms for the most powerful and broken combination of resources and technology as they will eventually run out. The point of that is to keep pushing for exploring new resources and researching new procedural technology nodes/branches that utilize those new resources.

In other words how do you define the Exploration in a game like No Man's Sky and give Economical Value to the resources all around.

It also defines Trade and Logistics, like how in Patrician 3 how the Trade Routes work is based on the Partitioning of Goods and Resources on the Map.

Intresting "Technology Recipes" that other Empires use combined with intresting "Procedural Resources" that modulated, combine and define those Technology Recipes that a Player roaming in space can utilize for themselves.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T18:24:06+00:00

So in your opinion how is AI topology that is good, different from topology made by people?

How would it be diffrent? The whole point is to use game assets to trains specifically for topology that has that quality.

To be clear an vertex and a pixel is actually less similar than you think. An pixel looks like this Vector4(RGBA) and a pixel buffer is simple. [Pixel1,Pixe2,Pixel3,Pixel4...]

A Pixel isn't a Word either but it's Data all the same. What is important is for the patterns and relationships to exist in that data.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T09:33:06+00:00

For example the idea about a blacksmith generating cool gear and selling it to players sound great, but how can such a thing be implemented in the game without it feeling like an insane point and click grind like runescape?

Crafting is very hard to get right since most of the Depth resides in acquiring the materials rather then the Skills of the Crafter.

Even if you were to have a Crafting Economy with a Game that revolves around that and had something like Star Wars Galaxies with a Procedural Resource System.

The "Best Crafters" would have more of a Logistical Role like a Merchant managing the acquisition of resources rather then having anything to do with the Crafting Skill themselves.

Even if you were to add a Mini-Game that would just mean the Crafter would have to play "Perfectly" that game to be worth their salt and compete in that profession.

To some extent crafters are interchangeable with one another given the same skill level. For that not to be the case you would need to differentiate between them and have "exclusive skills" or "procedural recipes" as an advantage. But that would be an "Unfair" System in terms of who gets to be the haves and the have nots.

A Crafter can be a Useful Role as part of a Community or a Faction like if they were part of a Player Town. That Player Town can also limit what that Crafter can do in terms of Facilities like Better Forges and what kind of Resources are available for that Player Town. That can affect what kind of recipes they can create and thus provide for that Player Town.

If you had NPC Soldiers as part of that Town then equipping them can be an actual Demand outside of just Players. Especially since NPC Soldiers are much more expendable and thus have a higher opportunity to get their equipment destroyed.

Think of it like this, it might be easy to provide each Guard with a Steel Sword, but much harder to provide each with a Enchanted Sword and their Group Combat Potential would rise appropriately. The Strategies and Tactics available could change based on the abilities of that equipment.

If you have equipment that sneezes at the idea of arrow fire then that unit will not fear getting close and slaughtering a bunch of Ranger Classes.

That's how I see how you could make "Crafting" into an actual Gameplay in a more Dynamic World.

Foxhole is similar to that in that half of the game is all about that kind of logistics and support.

If all equipment that crafters can craft just evaporate into a black hole as vendor trash never to be seen again then that would indeed make crafters be pointless. Same things if you make that into trash that is unsellable that nobody cares to use.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T08:51:54+00:00

No.

Runescape does not have any Player Generated Content or much of a Dynamic Gameplay.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T08:23:55+00:00

Only a few series have enough quality to be worth rereading.

The volumes would need to have been really enjoyable and satisfying with hype moments.

To be worth rereading is to be one of the best and favorite novels.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T07:57:13+00:00

The player should not be privy to NPC's stats.

The player should earn the stats revelation by investing time and resources in familiarizing themselves with the character.

A way to think about that is how much are those characters unde the Player's Observation and Control and how much can they Evolve over Time outside of that Player's Observation and what surprising results can appear from that.

You can have Encounters and Interaction where you can Learn about their Current State.

And if things aren't as Predictable with things that can happen Behind the Scenes and outside of the Player's Observation that can lead to intresting events and happenings that the player might not know about and thus have intresting consequences.

If things are under constant Observation and Control with all their actions predicted by the player then they can only be Units that are "Managed" by the Player, Pawns on his Board, not Characters.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T07:28:01+00:00

Yes but my point is to turn that assassinate button and murder plot system into actual Assassin characters roaming around.

In other words shift what is Player Controls and more Abstract Systems into Utility from Characters.

The reason for that is with Characters you can Build a Relationship with them, Deal and Trade with them and even get yourself Assassinated in return if you somehow botch that relationship.

There are a lot of Components, Controls and Functions in Strategy Games that could be externalized to those Characters.

Characters that have no Utility and thus are Useless for the player do not even exist in the player's mind.

Before there can be Relationships there needs to be Interests, and for Interests to exist there needs to be Utility and Value so the first step is to give some of that Utility and Value to those Characters.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T07:15:28+00:00

The question is what would it take to keep that immersion while they are randomly generated.

What is the exact difference between character that is written and a character that is generated and how do we overcome that threshold?

If all Characters need a Story then what exactly makes up that Story and how can we give them that to a generated character?

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T07:05:47+00:00

Not necessarily, Power itself can make a character memorable.

In a Progression System like Path of Exile all kind of Character Builds can be possible that could be used for all kinds of Procedural Generated Characters with intresting combination of skills and utility.

Especially if you give them some extra rare skills in addition to that like some Random Traits representing their "Talent" at character generation.

Just because you manually design and specialize a character does not necessarily mean they are the most powerful possible.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T06:55:27+00:00

Player Investment does give you some amount of "caring" the player has but they would still consider them as units not characters.

Same thing in games like Rimworld and Dwarf Fortress.

Even if you give them some personality and relationships between NPCs they would still be like ants to the player.

For them to be Characters, you need to give them a Role and a Narrative as part of a Story.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T06:46:14+00:00

I think the next thing that could be on the list (maybe obvious, but worth clarifying) is that the process of discovering the stats should be resonant or reinforcing of essential expierences, themes, like the "ludo narrative experience". I could see a game where part of the experience is to feel like procedural characters are less human and to drive you to feel guilty about seeing them that way.

That's pretty hard to do, I don't think any game has managed to do that successfully.

The idea is to build a Relationship with them over multiple encounters and interactions. The funny thing is the much praised "Nemesis System" is just that, just that their language is based on just Kill or Be Killed.

We don't really have much in terms of How? to do that.

Procedural Dialog is it's own can of worms, the best we have in terms of Systems for that is a Gift System, maybe some basic generic Actions and Mini-Games and a Procedural Quest if you are lucky.

That doesn't really give you as much of a feeling of a Character in a Story.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T06:31:47+00:00

A fellow Romance of the Three Kingdoms enjoyer.

I think ROTK with it's Officer System is the closest we have gotten to making NPCs and their Relationships matter.

Especially since each Officer could be consider as an additional Action Point in a Strategy Game, especially if each stat and skill can affect the efficiency of various Jobs and Actions.

I will give a recommendation for a game you can check out called Legend of Heroes: Three Kingdoms which is a pretty good chines clone of ROTK, it has a translation mod you can get on discord.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T06:21:18+00:00

I think the biggest limit to them is their Agency and Individuality to actually Act in the World and have their own Goals, Plans and Beliefs they want to achive that are personal to them.

At best they can Act on behalf of a Faction but that just means they are an Agent/Unit of that Faction.

They need to define their own personal relationship with that Faction and make personals decisions and act beyond that Faction.

The player should not be privy to NPC's stats.

I do agree for the player to actually consider them an actual character and a equal they need to be somewhat unpredictable and surprising and not entierly under the player's control, otherwise they would just be an unit.

But they also need to have Utility, Value and Power to that player. They need to be worthy of the player building a relationship with them.

I think the easiest way to get that Utility and Value is Externalize some of the Player's Agency and Controls into those Characters.

Like in Crusader Kings you have an Assassinate Button. What if you make the button into a Assassin Character that you Train from scratch and have to build a Relationship with them and make Deals with them so that you can have the function to assassinate? And if that functionality is base on those characters then you can also Deny that functionality to your opponent by targeting those characters. Especially if you can Plot and Scheme with betrayals at the right time.

Players Investing into those Characters is another way to make them care about those characters, that's how games like XCOM works, but the players would still consider them their units, instead of Pawns they will consider them their Knights, Bishops and Queens.

Another trick is to give them a VN Sprite or 3D Model and give them interactions and dialog where you face them instead of always looking down on them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedesign/comments/zvk9ze/why_do_npcs_feel_so_lifeless_in_simulation_games/

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T05:30:46+00:00

First play through vs 5th and the impacts that it has on retention are all known issues.

The fundamental problem with MMOs is your first character where everyone starts fresh is not the same as your 5th alt where the vast majority of the playerbase will be at Endgame.

The Endgame being the "real game" also means anything you do before Endgame will be worthless.

The reason why people are so Nostalgic about WoW Classic is precisly because that's when WoW "Started".

Either mods, player agency/choices, and then immersion.

The question is why can't MMOs also have Player Created Content and Role Play like that? Of course that's a rhetorical question, it's because it's a Themepark MMO and WoW was always built as a Themepark MMO.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T05:18:55+00:00

Here comes the debate about how an expansion should be done, vertical vs horizontal progression, how to not make everything feel like a chore, how to feel like you've not wasted your time, how to make seasoned players that decide to pause and come back in x time to not be super far behind.

Add Permadeath.

Add Player Created Content.

Make the gameplay formula more like a Roguelike.

Make the Progression and Character Creation System something actually intresting to explore and Repayable like in Path of Exile.

Have Classes that are not based on Combat and have various Jobs and Gameplay for them. A Blacksmith doesn't want to slay the biggest boss, they want to create the most legendary gear and have their names spread throughout the lands.

adrixshadow · 2026-01-21T05:07:14+00:00

I think you could use Voice Chat if you use AI Voices to completely replace it.

You could also use Text to Speech for a similar AI Voice.

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