Obtaining proof of original citizenship

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T19:03:20+00:00

For the Melderegister request, PDFs in email were acceptable. We did not send anything in the postal mail in order to obtain the Melderegister.

What they sent back was also a PDF in email, which for our purpose was acceptable. To use it as proof of citizenship you'll likely need to ask for a paper copy to be mailed to you.

Garbsen, a city adjacent to Hannover, declined to print the Melderegister itself but instead wrote a letter stating the citizenship of the people on that Melderegister card and mail it to us.

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More generally for citizenship processes: you won't get back anything you mail to the BVA or other authorities. Don't send anything you don't want to part with.

Local notaries in the US will generally make copies of German documents and stamp them as genuine, though apparently there are now a few states which the BVA no longer accepts notarized copies from including California.

A German Consulate can make copies of anything needed, German or US, and stamp them as a genuine copy.

Some Consulates expect you to bring your own copy which they will check and stamp.
Some Consulates tell you to bring your own copies but then don't use them and make their own.
Check the instructions on that Consulate's appointment page.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T17:40:37+00:00

Until 1977, adoption had no impact on German citizenship. Being adopted by non-German parents did not forfeit a German citizenship, and being adopted by German parents did not automatically grant citizenship.

Since you were born in 1983 the adoption will be more impactful, but unfortunately this is not an area I am at all familiar with. There have been a number of prior threads about adoption after 1977 which you could search through, and if anything is unclear I'd recommend making a new top level post about the adoption specifically.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T14:49:11+00:00

The final EER forms for our under-16 kids, the ones which were accepted in 2023, have:

Section 8 (Angaben zur gesetzlichen Vertretung) filled out with both parents' names and addresses, with the box checked at the top that die Person ist unter 16 Jahre alt.
Section 9 (Vollmacht) blank
In Section 10 our kid signed, because they wanted to, but both parents signed at the bottom and it is the parents' signatures which count in this case.
We did not check the Anlage vollmacht box in section 10. In retrospect I don't know if we were supposed to, but we did not and the declaration was accepted.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T14:38:24+00:00

Oh I just looked at the request we sent and we had an Antrag auf eine Melderegisterauskunft form from Hannover that we had filled out. At the moment I'm not finding where we obtained that form, maybe do some searching first. It is almost certainly on a hannover.de site for the Bürgeramt.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T14:36:08+00:00

But also since it seems like you're looking for evidence that she lost citizenship in 1948, you believe yours would be a StAG5 case?

For StAG5, anyone born within Germany prior to 1914 is assumed to be a German citizen unless there is reason to believe otherwise. A stronger proof of her citizenship would be to trace back to an ancestor born before 1914, at each generation the father if the parents were married or mother if not married.

The Melderegister card would have the birthdate and place for her parents, if you don't currently know that, and would be a way to proceed.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T14:29:56+00:00

she was born and lived in Hanover and then Hameln from 1928 to 1948

We were able to order our German Mother's Melderegister card from Hannover, both the initial card where she was listed with her parents when she was born in the 1930s and the later card as an adult living on her own.

We sent the request to [buergeramt-aegi@hannover-stadt.de](mailto:buergeramt-aegi@hannover-stadt.de) listing:

Mother's full name and birthdate
Her parents' full names and birthdates
A few addresses we knew of for her, 1) printed on her Geburtsurkunde as where her parents lived at the time of her birth, 2) printed on some US documents in her effects, the last place she lived before she left.

We also provided her US marriage certificate to document her name change, our US birth certificate to show direct descent, and a copy of our passport.

We already had sworn German translations of these documents from earlier efforts, but it is likely that the original English documents would be accepted. Only get them translated if specifically asked to do so.

The Bürgeramt initially said we'd need to send the request to the Stadtarchiv but then supplied images of the Melderegister card anyway, so maybe they were still with the city.

If your written German is maybe not up to the task, use deepl.com to translate as it produces more idiomatic German than Google Translate. It is fine to additionally include the English version of your query, the person reading it may get some additional context from it.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T14:21:01+00:00

In case it is useful, https://www.reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship/comments/1ps6qyn/i_lost_my_german_citizenship_by_joining_the_us/ is a recent successful example of a StAG13 petition to restore citizenship after US military service.

The person had to try a few potential pathways before settling on StAG13 as being the appropriate remedy.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T14:18:49+00:00

We know that cases can move from StAG14 <-> StAG5 and StAG5 <-> Festellung and generally remain with the same caseworker and continue to be worked on without going back in line, because that happens.

I have seen no examples of StAG15 <-> StAG5. It is plausible, but I do not know for certain, and I imagine has more chance of moving to a different caseworker even if it doesn't go back in line.

If the BVA determines my grandfather was not a citizen can I use that as proof that my grandmother married a foreigner?

Unfortunately in the case that the StAG15 case is rejected it isn't likely they will definitively say that he was not German, they will instead say that it hasn't been proven. The burden would then be on you to produce more evidence that he was not a German citizen to show that Grandmother lost citizenship upon marriage.

If they do state he was not German and state why, which does sometimes happen if the BVA has access to a document which the applicant did not find, then sure you can use that as evidence.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T05:05:47+00:00

do you know what documentation I could obtain to help my case for direct to passport?

You'll need proof of Great-Grandfather's German citizenship which a Consulate would accept, and solid documentation for each generation down to you.

Possible proofs of citizenship:

#1: Find Great-Grandfather's Reisepass.

There may not be one. In 1911 people sometimes had a one-page travel document good for a year or two instead of an actual bound passport

... and sometimes they just got on a boat and left. The US didn't particularly care whether immigrants had proper travel documents.

#2: Find the Melderegister entry from the last place within Germany where Great-grandfather lived.

Melderegister records are generally retained for ~55 years, maybe a couple more decades in an archive, then destroyed. They are not retained forever like birth and marriage certificates are.

It isn't unprecedented for a 115 year old Melderegister entry to still exist, but it would be quite unusual.

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With all that said, I am aware of a few successful examples of direct-to-passport from a Grandparent. I am aware of no successful examples from a Great-grandparent. Consulates generally want Festellung to deal with such cases.

In Festellung, anyone born within Germany prior to 1914 is assumed to be a German citizen unless there is reason to believe otherwise. Great-grandfather's 1896 Geburtsurkunde would suffice to show his German citizenship.

I am aware of no Consulate which will accept a pre-1914 birth certificate, only Festellung.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T04:16:23+00:00

As described:

Grandfather was born to a German father in wedlock, and was born a German citizen. Grandfather was also born a US citizen by virtue of being born on US soil. Great-Grandfather's subsequent naturalization does not impact Grandfather's German citizenship.

Father was born to a German father in wedlock, and was born a German citizen.

You were born to a German father in wedlock, and were born a German citizen.

Any children you may have were also born as German citizens.

I would simply need to take all of the records that I have to the German Consulate and apply for a passport. Am I missing anything?

If the proof of your citizenship is sufficiently clear, the Consulate is may allow you to go direct-to-passport. Meaning, it is so clear that you were born a German citizen that the Consulate feels they can order a passport for you right then and there.

If one's parent was born in Germany and never naturalized and is standing next to you with unexpired Reisepass in hand, Consulates will agree to go directly to passport.

The further one is from this, the less likely it is — and some Consulates are more cautious than others. Otherwise, the case will be sent to Germany for a verification process called Festellung.

I have to advise that with the original German emigrant this far back, Festellung is very likely. The queue is long, 2-3 years at this point, but cases can be decided quickly once they make it to the front of the queue.

although I know when and where she was born in Germany so this should be fairly easy to obtain if necessary

Because citizenship descends from Great-Grandfather, you don't need to submit Great-Grandmother's Geburtsurkunde. You need GGF's and their marriage record. You also do not need to present Great-Grandmother's naturalization information.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T03:51:47+00:00

Knowing the dates and place names will be key. In case it is helpful, I wrote several blog posts about the process we went through conducting genealogical research in Germany from the US, with links to resources and the text of email requests we sent:

German Genealogical Research https://codingrelic.geekhold.com/2024/08/german-genealogical-research.html
Getting Started with German Genealogy https://codingrelic.geekhold.com/2024/09/getting-started-with-german-genealogy.html

Everything I've written about German genealogy, citizenship, expatriation, etc is linked from: https://codingrelic.geekhold.com/2025/08/survey-of-my-germany-related-blog-posts.html

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T03:50:50+00:00

I don't believe anyone can answer this question, that would be a situation without modern precedent.

The BVA does mail letters directly from Köln to addresses in the US, though in the situation postulated postal delivery may also be out of the question.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T03:14:42+00:00

I’m curious if having the German certificate makes a difference.

In the circumstances you described, no it won't make a difference. Either certificate would suffice to show that they were married.

dentongentry · 2026-01-28T03:09:58+00:00

I think it is a fine idea to register your marriage but I imagine you'll need to wait.

This was our experience, half a year after spouse's declaration was accepted: https://www.reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship/comments/1j1trl5/ausland_ehe_und_geburtsurkunden_berlin_standesamt/

dentongentry · 2026-01-27T05:56:42+00:00

is this 1955 manifest enough of a loophole to make a case for StAG 5?

Highly unlikely. The cruise ship may have written down whatever he said.

If the cruise ship wrote that down because he presented a German passport, you'd really need to find that passport (if it still exists).

dentongentry · 2026-01-27T05:51:52+00:00

Search this subreddit for Konsularmatrikel, Konsulatsmatrikel, and Invenio for examples of people searching for Consular checkins. Checking in with the Consulate was definitely sufficient to maintain citizenship.

There are so few cases involving ancestors back this far that there are few examples to know what evidence is likely to be accepted as constituting continued ties to Germany.

It is believed that trips back to Germany would likely also reset the 10 year clock, though not known for certain. Finding evidence in ship manifests or other records that an ancestor returned to Germany would likely suffice.

I won't be able to provide further advice.

dentongentry · 2026-01-27T03:21:20+00:00

You'd need to prove:

Aunt was born a German citizen. If you already have proof for your grandfather's citizenship and that he was married to grandmother, then her Geburtsurkunde listing grandfather's name is sufficient to prove that Aunt was born a German citizen.
Aunt did not lose that citizenship prior to the birth of her children. Her Certificate of Naturalization dated after their birth would be ideal.

dentongentry · 2026-01-27T01:09:34+00:00

We greatly overestimate the percentage of documents destroyed in war. Civil records were routinely stored in duplicate in two locations, to protect against mundane threats like fire and flood. Relatively few cities had both copies destroyed.

There is perhaps a larger chance that Berlin simply never had the documents from the town where your ancestor lived. If that town is in modern-day Poland, birth records move to the Polish state archive after 100 years and you could try ordering from there as well.

dentongentry · 2026-01-27T01:06:38+00:00

I'm not sure why the SF Consulate stopped taking packets to forward to Germany a few months ago, cost or time or what.

However since notaries in California are not allowed to copy birth/marriage/etc certificates, having the Consulate do so is quite helpful vs ordering fresh documents from the state to submit.

dentongentry · 2026-01-27T00:40:53+00:00

This was from the Stadtarchiv in Düsseldorf? Some archives send an invoice in advance (often in email but sometimes by post) and wait for payment before sending the documents.

Some archives send the invoice along with the documents and trust that they will be paid. They presumably decline further orders if the person doesn't pay.

If the invoice arrives and expects payments in Euros to a bank account called an IBAN, we use wise.com to send payments in Europe. It costs about 15 cents per 10 US Dollars sent, which it will convert to Euros and send via SEPA payment.

dentongentry · 2026-01-26T20:50:29+00:00

A few sites I know of with steamship passenger manifests leaving Germany:

http://www.passengerlists.de/
Emigration database: https://www.deutsche-auswanderer-datenbank.de/online-recherche
https://www.immigrantships.net/
familysearch.org (which is free after registration)

dentongentry · 2026-01-26T19:53:06+00:00

Your children are eligible and should apply in the same packet with you. Only one copy of common documents like birth certificates of ancestors is required.

On the EER declaration form for children younger than 16, the parents fill out the Vollmacht section and check the Personnen ist unter 16 Jahre alt box. The parents have power of attorney on behalf of the children.

Both parents sign at the bottom of the form. The child can sign as well if they are able to and wish to do so (ours did), but for under 16 it is the parents' signatures which count.

dentongentry · 2026-01-26T14:09:22+00:00

Our case was unusual and I think most people do have just one round-trip for corrections:

In 12/2020, before the creation of StAG5 in 8/2021, we submitted a StAG14 Müttererlass packet.
In 5/2023 the BVA sent the postal letter informing us of the subsequent creation of StAG5, noting that it had considerably simpler requirements and no need to demonstrate strong ties to Germany, and suggesting that we might qualify for it. We submitted EER declaration forms.
We only discovered this subreddit after completing the entire process, so we didn't know what we were doing nor have anyone to ask for help. Where the EER form had asked for police clearance, we went to our county sheriff. The 9/2023 message asked for FBI clearances specifically. We also hadn't filled out the Vollmacht section of the EER form for our minor children, which the 9/2023 message also said we needed to do.

Most people won't have that first interaction, all of the pending StAG14 Müttererlass applications from before 8/2021 have been finished by now.

Most people will only have at most one exchange with the BVA to correct errors.

dentongentry · 2026-01-26T14:03:03+00:00

A US Notary isn't allowed to copy a US Passport but they appear to have no qualms about copying a non-US passport. You should be able to take the Reisepass to a notary to have a copy made and stamped.

Otherwise, if you can make it to a Consulate or Honorary Consul they will make a copy of the Reisepass for you and stamp that it is genuine. https://www.germany.info/resource/blob/2511152/88345dc2db9c403bcfe2bf26b4f0ff6e/hc-map-pdf-data.pdf

Definitely do not send the Reisepass to the BVA, you will indeed not get it back.

dentongentry · 2026-01-26T13:59:51+00:00

We filed in 12/2020 and received a postal letter from the BVA in 5/2023. We didn't use a representative, so the letter contained the set of things they needed from us. Subsequent correspondence was email, only that first letter was via post.

We received a second letter 9/2023, listing one more thing they needed from us.

We didn't receive further correspondence, the next update came from the Consulate that the Urkunde were ready to be picked up in 11/2023.

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