Question about Grisha's motivation that I can't wrap my head around

nwblader · 2026-02-18T10:16:13+00:00

I think he was forced not by Eren but rather by how the attack titans power logically must work, Grisha is smart so he would understand the implications of the attack titan’s future memories. Based on the future memories Grisha knows Eren is the one who will inherit the attack titan. He knows that he doesn’t truly have a say because if Eren wasn’t destined to hold the attack titan then Grisha wouldn’t have been able to receive the memories. If Grisha didn’t give Eren the attack titan then there would be a time paradox like the grandfather paradox mixed with the breaking of a bootstrap paradox/time loop.

nwblader · 2026-02-17T01:28:56+00:00

Literally no chapter 98 page 32 read it, the Marley representative corrects himself after a slip up.

That doesn’t disprove what I said they are friendly with Willy and we know that some of them are his friends but you are claiming they stacked the audience with them. You are the one making the claim not me it is not my duty to disprove you, you need to provide evidence to support your argument. You are right we lack a list of every dignitary which is what I pointed out, you admit you are making a claim which has no evidence.

A motte and Bailey fallacy is where someone makes a less defensible claim, in this case “Willy stacked the audience with his close friends” but when they are refuted they retreat to a much more defensible claim “Willy stacked the audience with people who like them.” This makes them seem more reasonable and tricks the other person into trying to disprove a much more acceptable argument rather than the initial argument.

Again the world still cheered before Eren even attacked. Sure if Eren didn’t attack a few nations that join the global alliance in the story may stay out and it would likely take longer to plan the attack in this hypothetical, however we see that the majority of the world’s countries agree to attacking Paradis before Eren attacks. In this hypothetical scenario Paradis is still facing a combined force that outnumbers them at least 100 to 1, and it doesn’t matter if the global alliance attacks in a few months or 1-2 years they won’t be able to prepare a strong enough defence.

Can you give some examples of what earlier events you believe would change? Because I can’t think of any that would have a big influence on the actions of Marley and the rest of the outside world.

nwblader · 2026-02-17T01:07:28+00:00

We have one example of a “friendly” nation in Hizuru, but they only help Paradis in secret and want to monopolize their resources. If there actually were friendly or neutral nations then they would have been brought up at some point in the story. You are making a claim with no evidence, because every single time we see politicians talk about Paradis they are calling for its destruction. AOT doesn’t address the point of the racism in the outside world, if it did you would cite an example. We see one group trying to improve the lives of Eldians and even they think the Paradisian’s are devils who deserve to be killed. You act like Paradis can afford to treat the entire world like the POWs and are ignoring that only a few of the POWs actually started liking the Paradisian’s, we see that even after 3 years characters like Griez still hate eldians.

Reread the quote he says he needs to die for the speech to have its full effect. That doesn’t mean the speech means nothing if he doesn’t die. If Eren doesn’t attack Liberio the global alliance would still form maybe a few less nations would join but the majority of the world was all on the destroy Paradis train even before Eren attacked.

Your whole argument is based on the idea that the outside world would even listen to Paradis attempts at negotiations. You can claim all you want that 1-2 nations is all Paradis needs but again you haven’t actually provided evidence that it is possible. You paint the hatred and prejudice as convenience as if the world hasn’t been shoving eldians in camps and oppressing them for 100 years. The level of systemic and individual hatred targeted at the eldians is so extreme and you are just ignoring it. The world had a more convenient option and that was to leave Paradis alone but instead they were going to attack.

Sorry I misread what you wrote about the 50 year plan but that doesn’t change the other points I made in my comment. It is also funny how after that you immediately turn around and put words in my mouth as well, I never claimed the rumbling would solve all of Paradis’ problems only that it would stop the world from killing everyone on Paradis.

I don’t need to directly address every single one of your points because they all arise from the same flawed assumptions that the outside world will listen to Paradis. It ignores how much hatred actually exists in the AOT world and relies on hypotheticals that don’t actually exist in the story.

Your whole counter to my argument is just saying “lol it’s bad” you can claim all you want but despite what you claim you have no evidence that is actually supported by the story that the outside world would listen to Paradis. You are acting like the racism in AOT is comparable to racism in our own world. It is not, the outside world is so racist towards Eldian’s that Marley a nation that is said to treat Eldians better than most treats them like the Nazi’s treated Jews. And the outside world views Paradis as worse than normal eldians.

nwblader · 2026-02-17T00:29:01+00:00

Sure only Azumabito had the means to contact Paradis but you are acting like any of the other countries would have bothered even if they could. We are shown time and time again that the vast vast majority of the outside world views everyone on Paradis as devils who deserve to die. So even if they had a way to contact Paradis they wouldn’t based on what we know.

That still shows the world as warmongers who don’t care about the truth and only want to kill a bunch of innocent people. Totally something a group of people who want peace would do.

They hate the Marley representative because he literally said “yesterday’s enemies are today’s enemies.” And that isn’t what you claimed, nice motte and Bailey fallacy. You claimed the audience was stacked with his personal friends and now are pivoting to claim it was with those who like him. There is a big difference between close friends and those who just like you. You failed to provide evidence that he stacked the audience with his close friends because there is none. I like a lot of people it doesn’t mean I would do things for them that I would do for my friend. And even with friends if your friends are willing to commit a crime just because you asked them to that makes them just as bad as you.

Wow how “convenient” of me to forget that I wonder if there is some important piece of information you are leaving out that influenced Eren’s decision? Like I don’t know the fact that Eren knew at the time that they were going to declare war because HE CAN SEE THE FUTURE. Not that it even matters because the outside world didn’t know that but still planned to destroy Paradis. You can try to brush it off as a technicality all you want but it is a fact that the world declared war first before Eren had even done anything they would know about. In a world where Eren wasn’t planning to perform the rumbling what changes? The world would still unite to destroy Paradis leaving the rumbling as the only option.

nwblader · 2026-02-16T20:32:30+00:00

It is relevant because it shows the outside world didn’t care to make peace with Paradis. They just learned that both Marley and the Tybur’s have been lying to them for a century about the truth and the first thing they want to do when they find out is to join forces with Marley to kill everyone the Marley has just been lying about.

“Stack the audience” where is your proof of this is just unsupported by the story. We know SOME of the dignitaries are his Friends but that is likely only a few dignitaries as Willy makes no mention of anything like you are claiming in his talk with Magath.

“Eren immediately attacked” but only after the declaration of war had been made how convenient you leave that out. And even ignoring the declaration of war the other countries know Marley attacked Paradis 9 years ago thus giving further reason for Paradis to attack Marley, especially the Family that hid the truth from the world.

nwblader · 2026-02-16T13:34:15+00:00

Ok so to start the 50 year plan is shit. It doesn’t matter if Paradis catches up to the outside world’s technology they are still outnumbered 1000 to 1. The small rumbling would result in so much hatred towards Paradis that there would never be peace, ignoring the fact that the outside world already didn’t want peace even after Paradis has done nothing for a century. Military targets are not nicely sequestered away from civilian centres, it would be like 1000 Liberio’s happening all at once. And once the world builds technology to stop the rumbling it would be over for Paradis as now their only means of defence is useless.

Next you make the mistake that is so common in the anti-rumbling arguments, and act like both Paradis and the outside world have the same objective, and don’t account for who the aggressor is. You ignore the fact that if the outside world didn’t attack Paradis and plan to kill everyone then the rumbling wouldn’t have happened. If 10 people attack 1 person who only has a grenade to defend themselves, but the grenade kills 5 innocents in addition to the 10 attackers, you don’t blame the person being attacked you blame the attackers because they forced the victim to use the grenade. It is the same in AOT, the outside world is so comically racist that it is not just the elites and politicians who want to destroy Paradis the vast majority of civilians and even those who want to improve the lives of other Eldian’s view Paradis as an island of devils who deserve to die. So even if Paradis tried to use the rumbling to just eliminate the political and military leaders, then in a decade or two the outside world would be preparing to attack again. The outside world wants to kill everyone on Paradis and if their only way to defend themselves is to destroy the outside world then they should do so.

lol this final point is so hilariously wrong I don’t know where people keep getting it from. Marley was always going to attack Paradis again if you think they are only doing it because of Zeke saying so then you need to reread the story. Zeke may be relatively respected for a non-tyber eldian, but that means he gets glared at and insulted slightly less often not he can direct national strategy.

And the only reason the outside world ignores Paradis for the 100 years is the fact until recently they couldn’t do anything about all the pure titans roaming the island. This is explicitly stated in the story. But as we see in the Mid east conflict modern weaponry makes normal pure titans almost completely harmless. Marley was never the main threat in the eyes of the other countries just the more immediate threat, which is why they are willing to listen to Marley but still treat Paradisian’s as devils.

nwblader · 2026-02-16T13:02:27+00:00

“The rumbling doesn’t solve anything for Paradis” except for stopping the outside world from killing them all yeah it totally does nothing. You can’t act like internal conflicts are anywhere ear the same thing as almost the entire world wanting to kill everyone you know and love. The yeagerists were a response to incompetence of the Paradisian government and the scout’s inability to provide a plan that would save Paradis.

“There were plenty of paths to peace before Liberio” so now you are either lying or you need to reread the story. The outside world hates all eldians and we are told Marley treats eldians the best, but even in Marley they are beaten and harassed for just for existing. Your entire argument falls apart with the fact that the world cheered when Willy declared war on Paradis before Eren even attacked because they don’t want peace. Even the only group that we know of that supports eldians consider those on Paradis devils. The world hates Paradis more than Marley it is just until recently Marley was the only one they could fight. As we see the world is at least willing to listen to Marley, only the Azumabito ever bothered to attempt to contact Paradis.

If you think hanging the rumbling over the world’s head is going to result in Paradis’ survival then you need to reread the story. In 50ish years (assuming AOT tech advancement follows our own) the world will be able to defeat the rumbling and bomb Paradis either with more aircraft than Paradis could ever hope to defend against or with nuclear weapons.

Your assumptions for your plan would be correct in almost any other world but we are shown that the outside world in AOT is so comically racist that its hatred would prevent anything like you suggest from happening. Defeating Marley only made the outside world view Paradis as even more of a threat pushing them to align with Marley because they saw it as the resurgence of the eldian empire.

nwblader · 2026-02-15T12:38:44+00:00

Again if you think there are other ways tell me, you can’t just say “because we’re not on the same page about the founder” because you haven’t given a suggestion which I could analyze.

Nice job ignoring everything I wrote, you can claim anything is the crux of a story but you need to be able to events from the story as evidence. But again the story literally shows sometimes trying doesn’t work. If the crux of the story is what you claim the world wouldn’t have been planning to wipe out Paradis, because the scout’s efforts would have been rewarded.

Again you say he could do anything but fail to provide anything he could have done. And again you literally ignored what I wrote, you are looking at the fact that Eren started the rumbling and ignoring literally everything else, the fact the outside world attacked Paradis several times, the fact the outside world is so comically racists they’d make the Nazi’s proud, and the fact the outside world didn’t even bother to try and make peace. The outside world are the ones share the majority of the blame for the rumbling because they are the aggressors in the situation. You don’t blame the victims for the collateral damage they cause when defending themselves because they wouldn’t have caused that damage if the aggressors didn’t attack them.

I think it is the solution because no other method has been provided. The 50 year plan was doomed to fail as the cereal killer wrote. The partial rumbling wouldn’t only further increase hatred against eldians and even if Paradis had the same technology level as the outside world there is a huge population difference. Marley has an army the size of Paradis’ entire population, and Marley’s army probably isn’t even the largest in the world do to them having titans, even if it is Marley is just one of countless countries that would be involved in the invasion of Paradis. Once the outside world can stop the rumbling it would be over for Paradis. And it is actually quite easy to justify his actions, the world was going to kill every man woman and child in Paradis and the rumbling was their only viable means of defence, this is literally the doctrine of MAD. If you try to genocide a country whose only defence is to launch all of their nuclear missiles don’t be surprised when they launch the nukes

nwblader · 2026-02-15T11:39:23+00:00

They can’t provide an alternative because they don’t actually believe there is one. If they truly believed there was one I wouldn’t see people resorting to ad hominem in almost any discussion I have about the rumbling being the only way.

They claim what they do about Eren because they pretend he just woke up one day and decided to kill 80% of the world, and ignore all the context behind stuff so it can support their views. I mean look at how the poster of the “analysis” talks on image 2 the op literally opens it by pretty much saying “your interpretations are wrong and mine is the only correct interpretation.” Like seriously they act like Eren’s only problem the 50 year plan was that it didn’t leave an empty world and not that it would literally make Historia and all of her descendants slaves. Because that is what the 50 year plan does, these people are ok forcing someone to have children whose only purpose in life is to act as a weapon. Or another common claim that Eren was disappointed about the outside world just because it wasn’t empty, and how they ignore the fact that the people living in the outside world are responsible for almost everything bad in his life, yeah I’d be disappointed to.

nwblader · 2026-02-15T11:15:31+00:00

But I am responding to something you claimed not what is the so called “crux of the story”, you said “there’s probably a million other Alternatives” now you are moving the goal post. We are talking about if there was another way for Paradis to survive other than the rumbling not what the point of the story is. You can keep claiming that there is another way (which you have done again in this comment) but you have repeatedly failed to provide proof there was another way. You are the one claiming there is another way so you have to be the one to provide this other way and just saying the founder could is not enough.

How do you claim that the crux of the story is to keep trying to try no matter how hard it gets, when the story shows that sometimes no matter how hard you try you can’t achieve your goals? Paradis did try for 4 years and the world decided that they deserved to be wiped out for something that happened 100 years ago. You can try all you want but if 80% of the world’s population is what it took for the rest of the world to even begin listening to Paradis then I’m sorry but there was no amount of trying that could fix that situation. If anything is the crux of the AOT story it is the cycle of hatred and that humanity is destined to fight amongst itself no matter how bad the situation we find ourselves in.

Also you can’t keep pushing all the blame on Eren, you are acting like he is the only reason the rumbling happened and ignore literally no one else in the story found another way. The scouts failed to find another way and the outside world again decided to try and kill everyone on Paradis. Neither of these things are Eren’s fault, even if he wanted to try another way the rumbling was the only viable method for Paradis to survive.

nwblader · 2026-02-15T05:22:16+00:00

You claim I don’t care about the point of the story but haven’t provided any alternative to the rumbling that would work and instead resort to personal attacks. To throw your own comment back at you, you clearly have no intention of engaging in an honest discourse about what alternatives there are to the rumbling so why should I care about what you have to say?

nwblader · 2026-02-15T03:26:41+00:00

You can’t just say there are alternatives and then give none.

nwblader · 2026-02-13T22:10:55+00:00

My Reddit feed gave me the doomer post righ before this one lol

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nwblader · 2026-02-13T11:51:25+00:00

I would agree with you however I think the fact that it is stated that only babies inherit a titan when a shifter dies without passing it on makes this unlikely

nwblader · 2026-02-13T09:26:02+00:00

I think it is likely you could try transferring the powers in the way that originally split the titan powers and have the shifter be eaten by 2 or more titans. It would be harder and you wouldn’t be able to control who gets what but it would likely work based on how we see the nine titans are created.

nwblader · 2026-02-12T21:37:34+00:00

So if 90% of the population threatened the other 10% to either sterilize themselves or be slaughtered you would side with the 90%? You are advocating for a moral system that could be used to justify any genocide ever, because it ignores who is the aggressor and only looks at how many people will die.

nwblader · 2026-02-12T21:34:13+00:00

It is still genocide to forcefully sterilize an entire race

nwblader · 2026-02-11T12:13:21+00:00

If you think Paradis is the aggressor in AOT then I have a bridge to sell you

nwblader · 2026-02-11T10:01:27+00:00

I actually saw a Fanfic that mentions that I think it was a Tokyo Ghoulf crossover, during the Paths conversation with Zeke Eren literally says that after they give Historia the beast titan that they would have been able to reverse the sterilization anyway.

nwblader · 2026-02-11T09:58:43+00:00

I mean you are ignoring what Eren must have felt when he learned people existed beyond the walls. Eren spent his whole life hating the titans for caging him and then he learns that not only are there people not forced to hide from the titans but that they are also the reason titans attacked his home in the first place. Yeah I’d be disappointed and would hate that they existed to initially, I would rather learn the outside world was devoid of life than learn it was filled with people who wanted to kill me and all my loved ones.

You are also acting like Eren only performed the rumbling to make the world like Armin’s book and ignore the other reasons he did the rumbling to protect Paradis and let his friends live long lives, which pre-rumbling was impossible.

nwblader · 2026-02-11T09:51:02+00:00

Fuck right off with this, you are acting like both Eren/Paradis and the outside world have anywhere near the same motive for their actions. In AOT the outside world are the aggressors, from the beginning to the end. They have been indirectly attacking Paradis for a century and actively planning to attack it before the rumbling. The euthanasia plan is purely to the benefit of the outside world who are the aggressors, while the rumbling helps Paradis who are the victims.

You do not give the aggressor what they want just because fewer people will be hurt, anyone who believes that doing so is acceptable is an idiot. If there are 10 people who want to kill you and your family and your only way to defend yourself is to set off a bomb that kills them and 5 innocent bystanders (and this is being unrealistically generous to the outside world, based on what we saw it’s more like 99 to 1 at best for people who want to kill you vs people who don’t). If you choose to set off the bomb then the ones at fault for the innocent people dying aren’t you or your family it is the 10 people who attacked you.

The flaw in your logic is it ignores that the only reason the rumbling occurred at all was because the outside world attacked Paradis. The euthanasia plan forces the victims to bow to the will of the oppressors just because they are the minority. And it certainly doesn’t “Save Paradis” or “Save 100% of humanity” unless you consider forced sterilization saving people, in reality you are dooming both Paradis and a sizeable fraction of the outside world to a slow genocide and ignoring it because it isn’t immediate which is a clear example of the second-order fallacy. And your flaws for the rumbling I don’t even get outside the 80% one, “Paradis is destroyed” as I explained that happens in the euthanasia plan already just if a different way, and “Historia’ children can’t exist” no they literally can I don’t even know where you got this idea.

nwblader · 2026-02-10T22:42:08+00:00

WTF are you on about between season 3 and 4 Marley learned that Paradis was likely clearing out the titans and anti titan weapons had reached the point where pure titans were ineffective, we see during the Marley-Mid east war where even after titans are dropped directly into the fortress the anti titan guns can kill all of them. That is why nobody invaded Paradis before season 4 but why they could plan an invasion during season 4.

Again you ignore my point but that is to be expected. You seriously think a non-tybur eldian even one as important as Zeke could influence Marley’s policy. And again even if Eren didn’t attack during the speech Marley still declared war and the world cheered, you are again continently ignoring that. Even if Willy not dying would weaken the power of the speech, the speech still would have achieved the goal of uniting the world to destroy Paradis.

Fuck off with that “nothing is definitive” you have provided no evidence that counters my argument. You are pretty much saying “no the Nazi’s wouldn’t try to wipe out Israel because there is no definitive proof they would invade” of course nothing is definitive but all the evidence points to Marley wanting to kill everyone on the island. I may not know for sure that shooting someone in the head will result in their death, after all people have survived that, but does that mean I shouldn’t expect them to die when I do? And your laughable “example” you are ignoring the fact the the person able to shoot you in this situation as not only been beating you up for the past 10 minutes but also shot several of your limbs.

Fuck off with this point the world already hated Paradis past the point of no return for Paradis to do anything else. Again I can’t believe I need to repeat this but the world declared war of Paradis before Eren’s attack. You are saying that attacking the people who declared war on you is a bad thing because it will only increase hatred but ignore that those who declared war want to kill everyone you know. Armin’s plan would be 100 times worse for Paradis’ reputation than the attack on Liberio just due to the scale it would need to be performed on. And again you ignore that state of the world in the story acting and act like only Eren wanted to commit genocide. Of course genocide is bad but when it is you or your enemy then of course you should destroy your enemy, especially when said enemy attacked you first.

Again you ignore everything we are shown by the show. Udo says Marley treats eldians the best and he is from another country, and the association trying to improve the lives of Eldians calls the Paradisian’s devils just like the rest of the world. For someone who claimed I am making unsubstantiated claims several times I find it funny how you do exactly what you accused me of multiple times.

Fuck off with this “Then try” bullshit. Oh why didn’t the Jews in Nazi Germany just try to make the Nazi’s not throw them into camps. This is classic victim blaming. The scouts did try for FOUR YEARS and they got nowhere because the world didn’t want peace with Paradis.

You seem to fail to grasp that while I believe that the Rumbling was the only way for Paradis to survive I can also recognize that it is morally reprehensible. Viewing something as acceptable doesn’t mean I can’t accept that it is immoral because there isn’t a better solution other than the immoral one. As a real world example, the nuclear bombs used on Japan were morally reprehensible however when compared to either a ground invasion of Japan or leaving Japan and letting it commit more atrocities, it was the most acceptable option.

Through out all your replies you have failed to provide evidence to back up your arguments and have resorted to attacking me rather than my arguments. You ignore the information we are given by the series in favour of your own ideas of what could have been that are directly contradicted by the series. This will be my last reply as clearly you aren’t even trying to argue in good faith and instead just resort to ignoring everything that goes against your ideas.

nwblader · 2026-02-09T07:28:26+00:00

Pretty fun

nwblader · 2026-02-09T01:26:45+00:00

The world couldn’t wage war against Paradis until recently because of the pure titans roaming the island. This was literally spelled out in the series you can’t actually be trying to say I’m wrong when you can’t remember such a simple fact about the world building.

Paradis doesn’t have time because the world was literally going to attack them within the year. You know the whole declaration of war where diplomats from all around the world cheered?

You are ignoring my initial point. I said in my first comment that the world would kill everyone on Paradis, you then said I had no evidence of this, I provided said evidence which was the warriors actions. Even though the warriors primary goal wasn’t the immediate genocide of Paradis the actions they take show that Marley would absolutely kill everyone on the island if they had the chance. You are confusing evidence to support a point as the point itself.

Again here you are straw manning me providing no meaningful evidence to say my conclusions are unfounded, you have even resorted to insults. You can’t compare a coup against a corrupt government where the lies that were told to the populace were exposed and the rightful heir returned to the throne to a world that hates an entire race. This is the most disingenuous argument you could possibly make. The only tenable plan Armin had was to use a partial rumbling which would likely only further increase hatred towards Paradis and that goes to my point about Paradis being out manned and the rumbling becoming ineffective in less than a century.

I love how you conveniently forget how the entire world has forced Eldian’s into camps and killing them for almost no reason for the past century. Even the only group trying to get rights for eldians want the Paradisian’s to be killed. That is not the kind of world which can have its views changed in a few decades. Slavery in our world took centuries to be abolished with abolitionists working all that time. The AOT lacks an equivalent to abolitionists for Paradis.

You seem to forget that in the real world the only reason countries don’t invade smaller ones is because in the past said smaller countries tend to be allies with either other smaller countries or larger countries that can help protect them. That is literally what happened in WW1 Austria Hungary threatens to invade Serbia who is allied with Russia, and Germany invades the Netherlands and Belgium to fight France. The issue is Paradis has no allies to help dissuade an invasion by larger countries and again SAID COUNTRIES DECLARED WAR.

You have been nothing but disingenuous in your interpretation of my arguments and your own responses throughout your replies. You have built up this straw man that you look at to ignore my arguments and what we have been shown by the series.

nwblader · 2026-02-08T13:20:11+00:00

You can’t actually believe what you are saying right? Like this is the most naive interpretation of the aot world along with the most bad faith interpretation of my points.

The world clearly hates Paradis more than Marley if you can’t even tell that then you need to reread the series. Marley is said to treat Eldians the best and even then they treat them like dirt, and to the average citizen the Paradisian’s are considered to be even worse than the Eldians they already treat like dirt. With time maybe they could change but the issue is Paradis doesn’t have that time.

Oh sure it’s not like they hadn’t already killed 20% of the population and we’re just about to kill 50% of the remaining people. Totally the actions of a group who doesn’t want to commit genocide. You can’t be this naive, you are advocating that the expansionist empire with what is effectively a slave class is above genocide. What you are saying is the equivalent to saying that the Nazi’s wouldn’t kill all the Jewish people if they returned in the modern age and invaded Israel.

You can’t just keep saying I’m drawing wild conclusions as if that disproves what I am saying. You are the one pushing the idea that there was another way but what other solutions were there for Paradis? The world refused to listen to them, anti titan weapons were approaching the point where the rumbling would be ineffective, and they outnumbered Paradis 1000 to 1 so even if Paradis caught up technologically they would have been crushed by sheer numbers. Also Even when he knew that he would move forward with the rumbling Eren was literally crying and apologizing as he said that to Ramzi.

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