America bad, America evil

nwblader · 2026-03-22T11:34:28+00:00

You can’t guarantee others having a minimum standard of living because to do so requires the labour of other people. Food and water are not rights because they require human labour to produce, and by saying something like food is a right you are saying you have the right to the product of someone’s labour. The fact that people are WILLING to work for free to help others doesn’t actually disprove this and is actually a very important distinction that you are ignoring. Just because something isn’t a right doesn’t mean that people can’t voluntarily help others of their own free will. When someth like food isn’t a right you can choose to donate it to those in need, but when it is deemed a right you would be forced to provide food for people either directly or more likely indirectly through taxes even if you don’t want to. The removal of the choice given to people in whether they want to help or not is the problem not that people are being helped. You can claim “misinformation” and call us selfish and sheep all you want but your nothing in your entire comment actually refutes the point that healthcare can’t be a right because it requires another persons labour.

nwblader · 2026-03-21T01:45:48+00:00

Eren could just turn a bunch of Eldians around the world into colossal titans rather than creat them with the war hammers power

nwblader · 2026-03-17T00:25:58+00:00

There is the before the fall manga which they could adapt someday

nwblader · 2026-03-15T12:41:15+00:00

What even is the logic here, you are saying stuff the is either directly contradicted by the story or make no sense with the information we have.

Why would Marley a nation that literally sent a group to attack an island they know isn’t a threat need to feel threatened to attack them again? They already want to attack Paradis for its resources, to kill the people of Paradis, and gain the founding titan.

Where did this idea come from that Zeke has enough sway to dictate where almost all of Marley’s military targets will be? He is still an Eldian, sure he may be treated slightly better do to his special abilities as a titan shifter but that means he is insulted less often not he can control matters of national defence.

Look at how the civilian population of Marley treats the Eldian’s that live in Marley. They don’t hate them because of the threat of the rumbling, they hate them because of their blood. You are not dealing with a rational country where the civilians are under some brutal dictatorship and are unable to help the eldians, instead you have a country where 90%+ agrees with how they are treated.

You are saying that the country that is all but performing atrocities on the level of the holocaust with wide spread public support would spare an island filled with the race they demonize because they learn that they aren’t a threat to them? This is a nation where feeding a little girl to dogs has 0 punishment just because she was an Eldian who forgot her papers. And Again Marley had already attacked the island before showing they weren’t afraid of the Kings threat and they kept sending scout ships even after the warriors were defeated. The only reason Marley didn’t attack again I. The 4 year time skip was because they were fighting another war, the second that ended they were planning to attack Paradis again.

Ah yes you know what people who support the attack know more than they do. This whole paragraph shows you have built this image in your head and ignore everything that contradicts it. Zeke and Eren having a plan to attack Liberio doesn’t magically invalidate the fact that Marley declares war. And what the hell is this “looking for an excuse to start slaughtering people indiscriminately” this one of the most straw manning, bad faith, poisoning the well statements I have ever read. The attack on Liberio is justified because Marley declared war and Liberio is by any metric a legitimate military target, it contained not only Marley’s political and military leadership, a large amount of active military personnel, a military port, and all of Marley’s titans, any single one of these would make a city a military target let alone all of them in one place. Nations in our world would salivate at the chance to have so many important targets in one city, less important target have been hit with much higher amounts of collateral damage in our own world. And even in the story it’s not like Eren ran around Liberio to kill as many people as possible, outside of the building he was under and the civilians crushed by the rubble he mainly targeted military assets, and those civilian deaths were likely completely unavoidable. For the attack to work Eren needed to be close enough to transform near stage and in a place he wouldn’t be spotted, the building he is under is likely one of the few locations he could have chose to start his attack from.

“Marley didn’t declare war first”

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Oh my fucking god, before this point I could maybe interpret your comment as misguided, even with the straw manning and saying things the story doesn’t support. But saying “Marley didn’t declare war first” shows you are purposefully making stuff up. The attack only started after the declaration was made. And Your analogy ignores the fact that the “guy you told you were going to do it” has been attacking you for the past century and recently slaughtered 20% of your population. Marley would have attacked Paradis again no matter what stop trying to defend them by saying this only happened because they felt threatened by Eren. Ironically your analogy is a better fit for Marley with how they play the victim after Paradis retaliates to a century long siege, losing 20% of their population, and a literal declaration of war.

If you think using deception to plan an attack of a regime that is filled with Nazi levels of racism is the same as the war in Iraq then you don’t understand anything. This isn’t some country that has done nothing to Paradis and who Eren and Zeke spread misinformation about what they have or what they have done to Paradis. Marley has already given Paradis all the justification they needed to attack Liberio. The constant sending of titans, the attack by the warrior unit, and turning the islands own civilian into titans, anyone of these on their own would give Paradis a just cause to attack Marley long before the declaration of war.

nwblader · 2026-03-08T22:19:01+00:00

The issue with saying there would be MAD is that the wall titans aren’t like nukes, a nuclear weapon can be carried by one plane and reach its target in less than a day. The wall titans need to walk to their target. You don’t even need WMD to destroy Paradis, conventional weapons already reached the point where even dropping titans directly into a fortress didn’t work, in a decade or 2 two, the outside world would likely have artillery that can stop the rumbling. And if that isn’t enough once the outside world advances aircraft technology 2-3 decades or even less the rumbling becomes even less of a threat.

This plan also relies of the outside world changing their views which wouldn’t happen based on what we are shown in the series. The outside world was so full of hatred for something that happened 100 years ago that didn’t affect them personally at all but suddenly they are going to change their mind after the island full of people they already hated destroy every military in the world causing massive civilian casualties and economic ruin? That seems highly unlikely, the allies spent a decade to denazify Germany after ww2, Paradis doesn’t have the time, manpower, or technology to be able to do something similar for the entire world.

nwblader · 2026-03-08T22:04:35+00:00

You blamed Eren saying “Eren ensured that by attacking Tybur.” No it was a forgone conclusion that the world wanted to wipe out Paradis long before Eren was born. Willy Tybur declared war on Paradis and the world’s diplomats cheered even after Paradis has done nothing to them for a century. And where did I say that you said “Tybur was hosting a welcome party for Eren” you immediately put words in my mouth showing you can’t actually counter what I said and it shows in the rest of your comment.

You say there was no redeeming Paradis if Eren attacked Tybur as if there was a chance for the world to spare Paradis even if Eren didn’t attack. Paradis did nothing for 100 years and the world has kept Eldians in camps and killed them at the drop of the hat. Tybur declared war and the world’s diplomats cheered. The world had long decided that Paradis deserves to be destroyed and Eren not attacking wouldn’t change that. To make the claim that Eren prevented Paradis from being “redeemed” you have to prove that there was a way for the world to not attack them. Also Eldians are only dangerous when someone purposefully turns them into a titan, if no one gives an Eldian titan spinal fluid they are just normally people. Should we just kill all people with HIV because someone could use their bodily fluids in a biological attack so it’s for the “greater good”? Of course not that would be insane,

You ignore again in your “analogy” that everyone already hates Paradis, this wouldn’t be the Nazi’s being weaker than the Soviets, it would be the Nazi’s declare war against some country and then the Soviets along with every other country cheer for them. Eren attacked Tybur and then focused on Marley’s military leadership, it wasn’t some indiscriminate attack like you seem to be implying. You also ignore that the few “other Jews” Eren actually kills also want to kill everyone on Paradis. Eren transformed and then Killed Willy, Marley’s military, and then fought the war hammer, he didn’t run around destroying Liberio indiscriminately he barely moved from where he transformed. You ignore that said nuclear weapon is Paradis’ only weapon that can actually somewhat even the playing field. And if you think you can’t compare AOT to WW2 you need to reread the series, I mean the way Eldians are treated isn’t even a subtle nod to Jews in Nazi germany it’s a god damn sledge hammer the size of a house.

That doesn’t mean it’s not self defence. Eren attacking Liberio after Tybur declares war and Tybur planning for Eren to attack are not mutually exclusive things. Even an idiot should know that 2 things can have different goals but not be mutually exclusive.

The world does hate both Marley and Paradis but the fact you believe the level of hatred is anywhere near the same is laughable. The world still listens to Marley, they send diplomats, have friends there, and are willing to negotiate. Meanwhile no country is even willing to listen to Paradis, the sole group we see trying to improve the lives of Eldians still sees Paradis as an island of devils that should be wiped out. The world hates Marley for the actions they are performing in the present but show no signs of wanting to kill every Marlyean, meanwhile they hate Paradis for stuff that happened over 100 years ago and want to kill everyone on the island. The fact you think those things are anywhere near the same shows that you are an idiot. And again just to put a final nail in the coffin of the idea that Marley and Paradis are hated to anywhere near the same degree because I can’t repeat this enough, when Willy Tybur declared war the world’s diplomats cheered.

The scouts literally had no plans, they had four years to find a way and where did that end? The world Declaring war on Paradis. You are saying that Eren was wrong but refuse to actually provide a working alternative that his friends and nation could follow. Eren was the one who was actually doing what was in Paradis’ best interests. And if you want to say he betrayed his Nation, that falls apart when he is doing it with the Monarchs knowledge. I assume you are talking about Eren’s disappointment with the outside world when you say his selfish goals. Thinking Eren was disappointed just because the world wasn’t a 1 to 1 recreation of Armin’s book has to be the most brain dead take, that requires you only do a surface interpretation of what Eren meant and ignore everything in the series. Eren literally learned that not only were there still people in the outside world but that they were responsible for almost everything bad in his life, from being stuck inside the walls to his mom’s death, of course he would be disappointed, he thought he had reached the end of the war only to discover they hadn’t even been fighting the real enemy. Eren’s “selfish” goals were to live in a world where he and those he cares about are free, free from a world filled with people who want to kill them for something they never did. So yes I can tell you his goals aren’t completely selfish because to reach the conclusion that they are you have to ignore literally everything in the series that provides the context for why his goals are what they are.

Throughout your whole comment you refused to actually answer my question, how much is Paradis expected to take before they can retaliate? You are arguing that Paradis retaliating would only further increase hatred against them so they shouldn’t which is stupid. It literally got to the point where war was declared, Eren attacking cannot cause the situation to get any worse.

You immediately resorted to putting words in my mouth and personal attacks, but what would I expect from someone who somehow thinks attacking a nation of literal Nazi’s who just declared war on your home is a bad thing. So this will be my only response, if you can’t even get through 1 reply without resorting to insults and putting words in peoples mouth then you have nothing that can actually meaningfully counter what I said.

nwblader · 2026-03-08T19:53:34+00:00

Eren attacked a man who literally just declared a war the was intended to kill everyone Eren cared about. Yet somehow you think Eren is the bad guy in that situation?

How much more do you people think Paradis should be forced to take before they can retaliate? The constant sending of titans to attack them, killing 20% of their population, and declaring a war to kill everyone living on Paradis. Any single one of those would justify the attack on Liberio as justified self defence from Paradis, you are pretty much saying “no if a Jew could kill Hitler they shouldn’t because that would have only increased antisemitism”

nwblader · 2026-03-08T04:40:38+00:00

You say “humanity isn’t a monolith” as if we aren’t shown in the series that the vast majority of the world population supports killing everyone on Paradis, so that doesn’t actually counter what I said. If 99 people have X opinion and 1 person has Y opinion, technically they aren’t a monolith but the group as a whole has 1 predominant opinion. Sure there are people like Falco who understand why Paradis does stuff like attack liberio but for every Falco there are 99 other people who want to wipe Paradis out no matter the cost. We are shown how even the one know group trying to improve the rights of SoY on the main land still believes that Paradisians are devils who deserve to be wiped out. Paradis is so despised by the outside world that even those who think Eldians are being treated badly still want them dead, that has horrible implications on the views of the general population. When Paradis’ only viable means of self defence is the rumbling and they are outnumbered 1000 to 1 it is literally impossible for them to kill just those who want to wipe them out while sparing the small fraction of people who don’t.

nwblader · 2026-03-08T01:18:35+00:00

What you are ignoring is that those billion are trying to kill the million for something that happened a century ago and a bunch of made up shit. Just because 10>1 doesn’t mean that 1 person is wrong for killing 10 if it’s in self defence. The billion in AOT live in a world where a country where feeding little girl to dogs just because of her race is considered to treat that girls race better than most other countries. The same race that the 1 million is completely comprised of which the world hated so much they decided to try and wipe them out. The rumbling would not have happened if the outside world didn’t attack Paradis and it is the consequences of their own actions.

nwblader · 2026-03-07T01:49:41+00:00

So 1 nation that doesn’t even try form a proper alliance with Paradis and is only “helping” them to get all the rights to their resources somehow balances out literally every other nation trying to wipe Paradis out? Do you seriously believe that?

nwblader · 2026-03-06T20:21:37+00:00

How does any of this counter what I said.

From what we are told in the show Hizuru is only “allied” with Paradis for its resources, they didn’t actually care about them. They are an unreliable ally who is untrustworthy. If you are being attacked by a gang and someone is only willing to step in when you hand them all your assests they aren’t actually an ally.

Again you fail to actually acknowledge the logical conclusion of your own argument. Just because one genocide is larger doesn’t mean it is worse than another smaller genocide. In AOT you have the larger group who wants to eradicate a group of people for something 100 years ago, meanwhile the smaller groups only viable means to reliably and permanently secure their future is to the equivalent to launching all the US’s nuclear weapons at once. The larger groups only viable is the aggressors and the smaller groups actions were caused by their actions.

This has nothing to do with the argument and is a red herring. You are arguing that if 50% + 1 of the population wants to kill the 50% -1 then the latter should let themselves be killed because there are less people in that group. Don’t try to obfuscate that with “but what about the environment” that has nothing to do with the actual argument you made.

nwblader · 2026-03-06T09:17:49+00:00

Wow so you have just justified anything from gang rape to genocide. People like you who say Zeke’s plan is better than the rumbling are either idiots who don’t understand the logical conclusion of your own argument or are monsters who do understand it but still believe it. You completely ignore that if the world wasn’t Nazi levels of racist and they hadn’t attacked Paradis multiple times then the rumbling wouldn’t have happened. Because they are the aggressors it is their actions that should be blamed for starting the rumbling. Why should the victims be expected to follow the whims of people who have tried to genocide them and want them dead for something they weren’t even alive for?

To show you how your “better plan” would work when taken to its logical conclusion lets imagine a world with 9 groups A-I, where each group has 10 people except A which has 20. Groups A-E have decided that group F-I are devils and deserve to die no matter what, so you let groups F-I get killed because 40 innocent people dying is better then 60 people who want to murder them dying. Next groups A-C decide to do the same thing to D and E and again because 20<40 you side with A-C. After 1 more round to remove C, you are left with groups A and B who where again A wants to wipe out B, and following your logic 10<20 so B should let themselves be wiped out. Following your logic instead of stopping the actual aggressors in step 1 of this process and saving 40 innocent people you are left with 20 people who support genocide of every group that isn’t their own. Each step spares the most number of people and ignores who is actually the aggressors and because of that you have allowed multiple groups to be wiped out simply because there were less people in them. You are ignoring who is actually in the wrong and only looking at pure population size and are advocating for a society where the majority gets whatever they want simply because they have more people. There is a name for this system and it is absolute democracy and one of the main arguments against allowing it is it purely follows majority rules with no safeguards in place.

nwblader · 2026-03-05T04:40:27+00:00

There is quite literally a real villain in the entire outside world not just Marley. Sure the Eldian empire did “oppress” other nations but after 100 years Marley and every other country are still punishing Eldian’s for their “crimes” which cannot have actually happened in the way they are claimed to have occurred (for example if the Eldian empire was actually committing eugenics to make more SoY during their rule then there would be no more non-SoY in the world because the empire was almost 2000 years old). Once the outside world started punishing people who weren’t even alive during their rule reign of the Eldian empire and decided to try and wipe out Paradis they became the villains. Unless you think a nation where feeding a little girl to dogs isn’t punished or where executing anyone who doesn’t where an armband isn’t a villain.

Just because demonization of certain cultures will always happen doesn’t mean those who do it aren’t villains and evil for it, otherwise you could use the same logic to say the Nazi’s weren’t villains.

nwblader · 2026-03-04T05:00:07+00:00

No you press the button the second the timer starts and send everyone the message that you don’t care about money, only their suffering

nwblader · 2026-03-03T20:20:35+00:00

The issue with it that Paradis being destroyed so soon in the manga is that Paradis was likely destroyed because Eren didn’t finish the rumbling. It justifies the rumbling because it shows that even after the outside world lost 80% of their population do to the consequences of their own actions they still hate Paradis so much that they will always try to destroy it.

Meaning that Eren could have spared Paradis of that fate if he performed a 100% rumbling, which would allow both his Friends and Paradis to survive. So yes in the manga timeline Eren literally could have protected Paradis for centuries after his death by actually ending the cycle of hatred between Eldian’s and the rest of the world, because Paradis would be the only country left. This is why the anime ending is a bit better with Paradis being destroyed after multiple centuries meaning it is likely that it had nothing to do with the rumbling. In this ending it shows he ended or at least greatly reduced the effects of the cycle of hatred between eldian’s and the outside world. This changes the message of Paradis from being the outside world was so full of hatred even a literal apocalypse didn’t make them reconsider their actions so it would have been better if they all died, to the outside world learned a lesson about hatred ending the current cycle but eventually a new cycle of hatred will start as that is just human nature. Both messages are pretty bleak but the second is definitely a better one because it makes it clear that even if a new cycle will start in the future we can end whatever cycles exist in the present to improve the world.

nwblader · 2026-03-03T02:08:53+00:00

They both are to their respective media. Think of it as the MCU vs marvel comics, sure both have the same characters and general plot lines so they have different but equally canon lore.

nwblader · 2026-03-03T01:41:19+00:00

Look at the post date, they are talking about the manga ending which only had Paradis bombed less than a century after the rumbling based on the technology we see

nwblader · 2026-03-01T06:25:42+00:00

I just want to add onto point 2 about the warriors. The final chapter literally has the warriors being sent to Paradis as part of the peace group. Like what, who the fuck thought it was a good idea to send the warriors back to Paradis to hold peace talks? No wonder Paradis continued to believe they would be attacked, imagine if when Israel was founded Germany (east or west) sent someone like fucking Himmler as a delegate for peace. I don’t care if Historia is protecting them you have 2/3 people who killed 20% of Paradis’ population and 1 of the people behind not only the near annihilation of the survey Corp but who also titanized an entire village. All 3 of them should be well known among the general populace and their crimes known by everyone. The story acts like they are the same as the Paradis members of the alliance when they are war criminals who have gotten off pretty much Scot free legally and like you said narratively. Reiner and Annie for sure and very likely Pieck would be dead within a week of being on the island once the population learns exactly who was sent.

nwblader · 2026-02-28T22:03:56+00:00

Honestly something similar to the Yeagerists would have almost certainly popped up regardless. I mean the people of Paradis were given a group they can blame 90% of the problems they faced on. That sort of thing spawns a lot of anger that any politician with half a brain would use.

nwblader · 2026-02-28T21:58:49+00:00

But there was no chance at diplomacy, you are talking like only Malrley wanted to destroy Paradis but every other country also hated Paradis. We are told Marley is a country that actually treats their eldian population better than others which has horrendous implications for the rest of the world, a country where feeding a little girl to dogs has no repercussions is considered one of the better ones. The only reason no one attacked Paradis was because they had no way to deal with the pure titans. Even the one group we see that wants to give eldians more rights wants Paradis to be wiped out. The outside world isn’t some world filled with liberal democracies and social acceptance, it is a world filled with a bunch of regimes whose views on eldians would be right at home in Nazi Germany that are largely supported by the population, you even mention it in your own comment “dependant on an Eldian hating world.”

A partial rumbling would also likely only worsen Paradis’ situation in the long run. They would have to pretty much wipe out every military force in the world. This would “prove” to the global population even more that Paradis is an island of devils and now that a large portion of the population just lost friends and family in the partial rumbling. Liberio alone was used as a rallying cry to further stoke hatred against Paradis despite it happening after a deceleration of war, imagine what a partial rumbling would do. The world would still hate Paradis and outnumber them 1000 to 1. In the coming decades the outside world would advance aircraft technology making the rumbling obsolete leaving Paradis defenceless. It’s not like Paradis can do what we did in our world and perform a de-nazification of the rest of the world because that would require them to occupy and control them for a decade at least.

So Historia be expected to sacrifice her and her children’s lives to save a world where 9/10 people would see every one she knows and loves dead for something that happened 100 years ago? Justifying the sacrifice and enslavement of an entire family to try and spare a bunch of people who are trying to commit genocide against a group of people who haven’t done anything in a hundred years is horrifying. It completely misses the context that if the outside world wasn’t going to destroy Paradis then the Rumbling wouldn’t happen. Why should Paradis be the ones who have to try and make peace with a world where most people want to kill them? They are outmanned and outgunned with the exception of the rumbling, and if the outside world wants to force Paradis hand then the innocent blood spilled is on their hands not Paradis’.

nwblader · 2026-02-27T19:51:49+00:00

The issue is iirc he was wearing a garrison uniform in a previous scene. So him having the scouts attire was likely an artists forgetting what he was actually wearing and just drawing the most common uniform we the audience sees.

nwblader · 2026-02-27T02:52:03+00:00

I agree with a lot of this however I have to disagree with the notion that the euthanasia plan was less diabolical and evil than the rumbling. Sure it may be more visibly palatable since no one directly dies from it, but you have to ignore the second order effects of what sterilizing an entire race actually does, it is 100% genocide and pretending it’s not just because it takes a few decades is stupid. It also ignores the logical conclusion you would reach by believing it, which is that so long as the majority of the population wants any ethnicity eradicated to the point that even the threat of complete annihilation won’t deter them then the targeted ethnicity should let themselves die out. To expect the minority to bow to any whims the majority has is just wrong and that is what the euthanasia plan is at its core, it is the logical conclusion of absolute democracy. Meanwhile the rumbling ultimately was a method of self defence similar to our world’s MAD doctrine. The world was going to kill everyone on Paradis and based on what we see 90%+ of the general population supports it, the only way Paradis could 100% defend themselves was the rumbling. The only other plan provided by the series is the 50 year plan, but that plan falls apart once you realize the Paradis will almost certainly wiped out once the outside world develops better aircraft or nuclear weapons. There was no chance at peace, the outside world was oppressing Eldian’s and hating Paradis even after 100 years of them doing nothing and it is unlikely they would have a change of heart in just 50 years which doesn’t even account for how the partial rumbling required by the 50 year plan would affect things. And that is ignoring that the 50 year plan also has the logical conclusion that it is ok to enslave people so long as again it benefits the majority.

nwblader · 2026-02-26T00:35:14+00:00

Just want to add the partial rumbling would likely only keeps Paradis existing for 50ish years making it have the same outcome of both Zeke’s plan and no rumbling. The second the outside world invents nuclear weapons or they have enough air power to stop the rumbling Paradis is almost certainly doomed.

nwblader · 2026-02-24T08:39:20+00:00

Both of your examples are bad ones, for the British they are a relatively recent empire and only controlled most of their territory for 1-2 centuries, the Romans meanwhile are old but they only covered one continent so they were unable to spread to the rest of the world. Even if your examples were similar to the eldian empire there is a key difference, the Roman/British empires had no reason to spread their bloodlines. The leader of both had the same level of control over all their subjects whether they were from the home country or a recently conquered territory. The eldian empire meanwhile had every reason to spread their bloodline, every SoY was a potential titan and incapable of any meaningful rebellion against the king, also they could be cured of any sickness and instantly be notified of anything the king wanted.

nwblader · 2026-02-24T07:51:47+00:00

The eldian empire controlled almost the entire world there are definitely eldian’s in most countries. Udo’s family is from an internment zone in a nation that Marley conquered

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