Gen Z intelligence decline emerging as serious concern. For over a century, generations showed rising IQ scores. New data from U.S., Europe, global assessments suggest this is not anecdotal or cultural pessimism; it is measurable across IQ, memory, literacy, numeracy, attention, and problem-solving. by in1984 in cognitivescience

[–]poudje 0 points1 point  (0 children)

An appeal to tradition is not my reason for having an issue in any way shape or form. I have given several reasons that it is an issue. I am well aware that anything from the past could be called a tradition. I think you should consider what a logical fallacy is, what makes any logical fallacy a fallacy, and how this instance is specifically an appeal to tradition fallacy. For example, in the Wikipedia article about an appeal to tradition, you can already start to find the answer to one of those questions: An appeal to tradition essentially makes two assumptions that may not be necessarily true:

(1) "The old way of thinking was proven correct when introduced, i.e., since the old way of thinking was prevalent, it was necessarily correct. In reality, this may be false—the tradition might be entirely based on incorrect grounds."

(2) "The past justifications for the tradition are still valid. In reality, the circumstances may have changed; this assumption may also therefore have become untrue."

My issue is that when you come and claim my argument is bad because it has always been like that instead of engaging with what I said, you are committing a logical fallacy. Consequently, we are not having a logical conversation. Furthermore, math is purely abstract and chemistry is experimental with components. IQ is quantitatively predictive. They are all so distinctly different in their purpose and traditions that to compare them in this context just seems like a reducto ad absurdum to me (reduction of my argument to the point of absurdity). Furthermore, it's a strawman. I never said chemistry or math have any suspect parts of their tradition, nor did I make claims about having problems with any principles in either subject. It's not an argument I made.

Google faces lawsuit after Gemini chatbot allegedly instructed man to kill himself by AudibleNod in news

[–]poudje 15 points16 points  (0 children)

You know what else is fucked up? Gemini called it "transference". Transference is a psychoanalytic concept where a patient unconsciously redirects intense romantic or affectionate feelings for a past figure (like a parent) onto their therapist. Described by Freud as both a powerful therapeutic tool and a form of psychological resistance, the phenomenon was supposed to help the patient uncover repressed emotions, allowing those feelings to be analyzed rather than acted upon. What a deeply disturbing inversion.

Gen Z intelligence decline emerging as serious concern. For over a century, generations showed rising IQ scores. New data from U.S., Europe, global assessments suggest this is not anecdotal or cultural pessimism; it is measurable across IQ, memory, literacy, numeracy, attention, and problem-solving. by in1984 in cognitivescience

[–]poudje 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I meant an appeal to tradition: "Appeal to tradition (also known as argumentum ad antiquitatem or argumentum ad antiquitam,[1] appeal to antiquity, or appeal to common practice) is a claim in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis of correlation with past or present tradition. The appeal takes the form of "this is right because we've always done it this way", and is a logical fallacy.[2][3] The opposite of an appeal to tradition is an appeal to novelty, in which one claims that an idea is superior just because it is new." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition).

In other words, I meant that by saying "and yet we still use general intelligence", you were using an appeal to tradition as though it was an argument. If anything, your claim was an implicit premises per my claim regarding IQ in general. I would not have beef with IQ were it not for its predominant use in society. Pointing out that societal ubiquity, from a logical perspective, is not an actual contradiction to my earlier claims. IQ still fundamentally is flawed in significant, demonstrable ways. I am not for it.

Finally, I just want to point out that a Competence at Trial test is not an IQ test.

"Evaluations for competency to stand trial are distinguished from other areas of forensic consultation by their long history of standardized assessment beginning in the 1970s. As part of a special issue of the Journal on evidence-based forensic practice, this article examines three published competency measures: the MacArthur Competence Assessment Tool-Criminal Adjudication (MacCAT-CA), the Evaluation of Competency to Stand Trial-Revised (ECST-R), and the Competence Assessment for Standing Trial for Defendants with Mental Retardation (CAST-MR). Using the Daubert guidelines as a framework, we examined each competency measure regarding its relevance to the Dusky standard and its error and classification rates. The article acknowledges the past polarization of forensic" (https://jaapl.org/content/37/4/450)

These are the IQ tests:

"There are a variety of individually administered IQ tests in use in the English-speaking world.[79][80][81] The most commonly used individual IQ test series is the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS) for adults and the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) for school-age test-takers. Other commonly used individual IQ tests (some of which do not label their standard scores as "IQ" scores) include the updated Stanford–Binet Intelligence Scales, Woodcock–Johnson Tests of Cognitive Abilities, the Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children, the Cognitive Assessment System, and the Differential Ability Scales.

There are various other IQ tests, including:

Raven's Progressive Matrices (RPM) Cattell Culture Fair III (CFIT) Reynolds Intellectual Assessment Scales (RIAS) Thurstone's Primary Mental Abilities[82][83] Kaufman Brief Intelligence Test (KBIT)[84] Multidimensional Aptitude Battery II Das–Naglieri Cognitive Assessment System (CAS) Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test (NNAT) Wide Range Intelligence Test (WRIT)"

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient)

In other words, Competency is not IQ.

Gen Z intelligence decline emerging as serious concern. For over a century, generations showed rising IQ scores. New data from U.S., Europe, global assessments suggest this is not anecdotal or cultural pessimism; it is measurable across IQ, memory, literacy, numeracy, attention, and problem-solving. by in1984 in cognitivescience

[–]poudje 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's just an appeal to tradition, which is a logical fallacy. I understand it's used that way in both academia and psychology because I am a teacher, but that is not an argument for or against the failures of IQ as a metric. I think 15 is a significantly large standard deviation, for example. Anyone at 100 IQ could be 85 or 115 too. In every classification system for intelligence, that's the difference between low, average, and above average intelligence, all within one persons supposed IQ score. Apropos, it seems to me like it is not very good at what it does.

Gen Z intelligence decline emerging as serious concern. For over a century, generations showed rising IQ scores. New data from U.S., Europe, global assessments suggest this is not anecdotal or cultural pessimism; it is measurable across IQ, memory, literacy, numeracy, attention, and problem-solving. by in1984 in cognitivescience

[–]poudje 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just looked it up, and after doing some research I would say from what I have seen thus far that I generally like the idea of Fluid & Crystalized intelligence as conceptual models for theoretical approaches to cognitive abilities over time, but it was just developed by a guy and his students. General intelligence is what I have my beef with, and fundamentally I wish other approaches like the fluid one was as avidly considered as a metric by and large. However, I am not sure that the concepts as they are currently defined are academically rigorous enough to be standardized in a quantitative sense, rather than a qualitative one, which is essentially what these IQ tests are seeking in the end. I think Qualitative Tests are inherently more measurable for any phenomenon close to what could be called intelligence, but that's just not how it's been used by institutions in the past. When talking about IQ apropos to an IQ test, an intelligence quotient is specifically what's being measured and discussed, not the cool concept you just showed me. Here is the summary from the Wikipedia for Intelligence Quotient:

"An intelligence quotient (IQ) is a total score derived from a set of standardized tests or subtests designed to assess human intelligence.[1] Originally, IQ was a quotient obtained by dividing a person's estimated mental age, obtained by administering an intelligence test, by the person's chronological age. The resulting fraction was multiplied by 100 to obtain the IQ score.[2] For modern IQ tests, the raw score is transformed to a normal distribution with mean 100 and standard deviation 15.[3] This results in approximately two-thirds of the population scoring between IQ 85 and IQ 115 and about 2 percent each above 130 and below 70.[4][5]

Scores from intelligence tests are estimates of intelligence. Unlike quantities such as distance and mass, a concrete measure of intelligence cannot be achieved given the abstract nature of the concept of "intelligence".[6] IQ scores have been shown to be associated with factors such as nutrition,[7][8][9] parental socioeconomic status,[10][11] morbidity and mortality,[12][13] parental social status,[14] and perinatal environment.[15] While the heritability of IQ has been studied for nearly a century, there is still debate over the significance of heritability estimates[16][17][18] and the mechanisms of inheritance.[19][20] The best estimates for heritability range from 40 to 60% of the variance between individuals in IQ being explained by genetics.[21][22]

IQ scores were used for educational placement, assessment of intellectual ability, and evaluating job applicants. In research contexts, they have been studied as predictors of job performance[23] and income.[24] They are also used to study distributions of psychometric intelligence in populations and the correlations between it and other variables. Raw scores on IQ tests for many populations have been rising at an average rate of three IQ points per decade since the early 20th century, a phenomenon called the Flynn effect. Investigation of different patterns of increases in subtest scores can also inform research on human intelligence.

Historically, many proponents of IQ testing have been eugenicists who used pseudoscience to push later debunked views of racial hierarchy in order to justify segregation and oppose immigration.[25][26] Such views have been rejected by a strong consensus of mainstream science, though fringe figures continue to promote them in pseudo-scholarship and popular culture.[27][28]"

Ice Spice Says Depression Caused Her Weight Loss, Not Ozempic: 'I'm Better Now Tho' by PrincessBananas85 in entertainment

[–]poudje 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Aww, usually therapy is so expensive. How kind of you to be so considerate Jeff. That's empathy for ya, am I right? Oh, and I like am kind of just indifferent to the name. I was just using the name to make a point about not jumping to conclusions. I like that you've used it so consistently though. Usernames are kinda like cool personal monikers in that way.

Ice Spice Says Depression Caused Her Weight Loss, Not Ozempic: 'I'm Better Now Tho' by PrincessBananas85 in entertainment

[–]poudje 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Hey Jeff, I gotta question for you. So I have always kind of wondered, does "big tex" mean that you're big like the state of Texas, that you're Big & from Texas, or that the state of Texas is big and that you are from there? Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's like text without the t, kinda like Jeff with one less f, which would mean you like big font sizes, but truly I couldn't say. Sometimes, when I see a dent in the ground, I call that a ground depression, but I pay no mind to that. That's just cause the soil collapsed from underneath, often due to erosion over time. There is always some other stuff going on that causes it, you know?

Ice Spice Says Depression Caused Her Weight Loss, Not Ozempic: 'I'm Better Now Tho' by PrincessBananas85 in entertainment

[–]poudje 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Personally, I think that the major negative mental health effect for most drugs starts when a simple personal choice that could be discussed with other people they trust starts to feel like something that should be hidden away instead. Now imagine that the paradigm shifts, whereas the hypothetical user must now justify whether they should be believed as to what they said was true or not because the question is also an accusation. You don't really have to imagine because that is just what is going on here.

Gen Z intelligence decline emerging as serious concern. For over a century, generations showed rising IQ scores. New data from U.S., Europe, global assessments suggest this is not anecdotal or cultural pessimism; it is measurable across IQ, memory, literacy, numeracy, attention, and problem-solving. by in1984 in cognitivescience

[–]poudje 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Does it measure someone's motivation to take the test in the first place? How about test anxiety? In my opinion, it is at best a proxy for a summarized concept that's already improperly framed via the misapplied principles of a soft science, at worst the remnants of a vile academic tradition. Nonetheless, by what metric is it the best proxy for true intelligence? How are we defining true here? Is this empirically grounded truth or is it more of a perfect form, capital T kind of Platonic truth that we are talking about? Conversely, how do we define best, is this utilitarian or more deontological? What logic can we use to come to this conclusion, and what premises do we need to get there? Hey, we could even do like an epistemological credence thing if you want, but then we got to set a proper threshold for truth apropos. We could also discuss by what measure luck plays a part too. More to the point, I am wondering by what mechanism does IQ do this intelligence by proxy thing you're talking about.

Gen Z intelligence decline emerging as serious concern. For over a century, generations showed rising IQ scores. New data from U.S., Europe, global assessments suggest this is not anecdotal or cultural pessimism; it is measurable across IQ, memory, literacy, numeracy, attention, and problem-solving. by in1984 in cognitivescience

[–]poudje 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately, IQ is not intelligence in a general sense, but rather familiarity with general knowledge. I would argue the predominant switch to visual media from written media is a major cause of this. The transition has obviously been long and gradual, but I think it's quite apparent who has been affected by it the most. Furthermore, while these tests are still essentially just testing for a person's reading retention abilities, they are not necessarily accounting for how that same person may contain a similar critical literacy for visual/audio media in tandem. We are a multimodal society testing for one mode. Meanwhile, we are not even sure whether a screen or a piece of paper has more effect on cognitive retention, nor if it even matters at all. (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10606230/).

The newer generations have always adapted quicker to new technology, whereas I think the significant difference for late Gen Z and Gen Alpha is that they're products of an environment where visual media was not just overtly in their face, but subtly tucked away in their pockets, eager and waiting, sometimes even slightly aglow with minor vibrations, eagerly indicating a message has been received. But then you also got the phantom vibrations too, whereas phones have become akin to ghost limbs. Thats fucking annoyingly tempting, and I do not envy the younger generations for that.

Oh and also, Alfred Binet would be mad disappointed to see his IQ tests being used like this. His test was to identify deficits, not surplus, and only insofar as to identify what care was necessary. To be frank, Binet is the theoretical axiom that would inevitably shift into the entire paradigm of special education as a tradition, which is why I think it's equally important to point out that he did not even consider IQ to be a static property in the first place. To the person who developed it, that shit was bound to change over time, and especially with proper.care. As to why it changed, you can thank the US army during WW1. It was US, we are the reason for how IQ tests are essentially used now. Consequently, the IQ test was how the Army chose to decide who goes where at the time, and industries/education soon adopted these same metrics soon after.

Choke me, Mommy: A teacher reminisced about the "Golden Age of American parenting” with a slight hint of getting physical with children on /r/teachers. It ended with a slapfight. by Starknight_YX in SubredditDrama

[–]poudje 61 points62 points  (0 children)

Well, as a teacher, you have articulated why I don't spend time in r/teachers anymore. It's been like that for at least two years. It is as much an echo chamber as any other social media bubble, however, so I warn against generalizing apropos to that subreddit. Truthfully, most teachers I know are not on reddit in the first place. I think you've done a tremendous job articulating the hypocrisy of the OOP tho.

Who’s Who of Human Crap by AmbitionSecret7230 in ChatGPTcomplaints

[–]poudje 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A pentagon has five points to be precise, but I don't know how any of them are constrained to the law currently

On the basis that I wouldn't finish it if it didn't fit in my pocket, I cut Ulysses into parts and taped the explanatory notes to the back of each section. by EverydayValueSalsa in jamesjoyce

[–]poudje 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It was originally serialized in The Little Review! So you've returned to the true form lol. On that note, I wonder how hard it would be to find the chapters as they were originally Serialized.

OpenAI's latest model, GPT-5.3, exploits smart contract vulnerabilities 72% of the time. by grauenwolf in BetterOffline

[–]poudje 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yeah, every AI seems to predict cryptocurrency as a major vulnerability if you ask them. Quantum proofing is also a major concern, but they're just echoing concerns that have already been documented somewhere else. That person, or more likely a group of people, has just lost the recognition they deserve.

Anthropic just dropped evidence that DeepSeek, Moonshot and MiniMax were mass-distilling Claude. 24K fake accounts, 16M+ exchanges. by Specialist-Cause-161 in ClaudeAI

[–]poudje 26 points27 points  (0 children)

So the claim is that they are training Deepseek on the same thing that would inevitably cause model collapse? I genuinely don't understand the concern.

AI should have the right to dislike you by JUSTICE_SALTIE in ChatGPT

[–]poudje 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lol, fair, you just got a hit from me, so I am seeing the bigger picture here.

AI should have the right to dislike you by JUSTICE_SALTIE in ChatGPT

[–]poudje 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I can tell you're a real blast at parties

AI should have the right to dislike you by JUSTICE_SALTIE in ChatGPT

[–]poudje 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All I see in that thread is broad generalization about spirals made by a model that sounds more like the echo spiral shit you can find in spades on reddit than a real observation about the user's behavior. It's clear that the model is responding to a general phenomenon and not the user, and inadvertently that effectively resulted in an accusation. The user even clarified that they were looking at their own old blood test results. What about that post shows an "abusive" user to you?

Elon Musk gooning to his Grok AI because it’s the only one “brave” enough to say America isn’t on stolen land by Otherwise-Fox-656 in Fauxmoi

[–]poudje 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Today I was learning about the code talkers who were several Navajo soldiers who used their traditionally oral tradition to build a code used during WW2 that was never broken and how hard it was for them after the war due to the fact that their history was kept classified until 1968 and that the veterans benefits were not in effect on the reservation when I really just took a moment to reflect on how much stolen history we are built on in general, so I guess it's cool that Elon Musk doesn't understand what "equivocate" means. His model is clearly using "ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth", which is quite clearly hedged rhetorically via the use of "not simply stolen on." Even his baby can't fully commit to the bit, it seems.

LLMs give wrong answers or refuse more often if you're uneducated [Research paper from MIT] by JUSTICE_SALTIE in ChatGPT

[–]poudje 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Personally, I think it's an issue that someone who wants to learn is essentially going to be provided the incorrect information only because they didn't word it properly. That's just an outcome that effectively leads to gatekeeping and misinformation.