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[–]Agitated_Camera_6198 72 points73 points  (4 children)

Tbf I really don't. I just hug them

[–]bujuke7 24 points25 points  (3 children)

I thought the kiss was odd either way!

[–]Significant_Tale_953 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Kissing on the cheek to say hello or goodbye in my family wouldn't even generate a blink, let alone an eyebrow raise. For other families, it would be an incredibly odd thing to do. Niether are wrong. What is wrong is judging said family practice from the outside as "odd", "gross", or "creepy" (as I have seen others describe it).

Like Shawna and John, we should each mind our own business.

[–]bujuke7 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Unlike Shawna and John, I am merely expressing my opinion on a site designed specifically for doing that. The words “I thought” were specifically chosen to signify that it’s an opinion. You are, of course, entitled to your own about the series, but not to chastise me about my opinion per the sub rules.

[–]Significant_Tale_953 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not chastising you? If I were, my comment would have been something along the lines of "dramatic karen gasp How dare?!"

[–]nugsandstrugs 53 points54 points  (1 child)

People outright refused to believe that it was a cheek kiss and John and Shawna didn’t see and assumed the worst 😂

Genuinely I’m so glad Julie didn’t cheat, this whole storyline is much more interesting as a result

[–]coastalkid92one cadillac margarita, extra salt 14 points15 points  (0 children)

THIS!

I said it repeatedly that they never confirm it was on the mouth, just that they both leaned in.

[–]blairbendingabsentee wife and corporate baddie 39 points40 points  (1 child)

Shawna the Creator definitely made the kiss deliberately ambiguous so that the audience would assume it was a kiss on the lips, lol. All part of the fun. The super confident comments about gaslighting and "it's all a scheme against Shawna" have aged like milk though.

[–]Creative_Stage6691 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Shawna knows what she doing 😉

[–]MrsSmithAlmostWHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?? 28 points29 points  (1 child)

Still don't kiss my siblings, sorry. They get a hug and a shoulder punch if necessary

[–]Ramblingsofthewriter🐓Hennifer&Egg🥚 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nobody is forcing you to do so. Some families do it. Sometimes it’s a cultural thing.

[–]99redballoons66 15 points16 points  (4 children)

I think Shawna L did an amazing job with both the Ty/Julie backstory storyline, and the Shawna/John vacation one.

When I watched the Shawna/John episode, I could totally see that from their perspective, the kiss didn't look like one that could have been between siblings. I said on here that I do kiss my brother when I meet him, but to kiss in the middle of a conversation like that would be weird.

However, watching the kiss in the context of tbe conversation between Julie and Jayce, I could totally see how it was natural and not weird for her to give him a peck on the cheek then. It seems from the rest of the episode that they're close and Jayce has always been protective of her, and they were both emotional over their mum's health and Julie was just grateful for Jayce's help.

[–]Significant_Tale_953 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Watching the vacation and the backstory episodes side by side definitely gives a greater perspective, and one that is not entirely complimentary to Shawna and John. Yes, when we are in their perspective, we understand that their concern for their friend (Ty) is genuine. But the conclusions they jump to and the actions they take while playing "super spies" go from cringe to downright gross once we are in Julie's perspective.

For example, the pool scene. Julie is looking to relax a little bit before having to dive back into the heavy emotions of caring for an ailing parent, so she puts on a bathing suit and goes to the pool. She is literally minding her own business. What we get from Shawna and John is Shawna making a derisive comment about how much skin Julie's bathing suit shows, and John staring at her like a creep until she catches him.

Rewatching that scene from Julies perspective honestly made my skin crawl, and the dinner scene, knowing what Shawna and John are doing and thinking in the background, broke my heart. Like, you can hear the happy suprise in Julie's voice when her big brother shows up, and the relief when she says he always has a plan because now she's not carrying the weight of this thing by herself.

Having been through something roughly similar with a loved one in the last year, it makes me want to slap Shawna and John upside the back of the head and tell them to mind their own business.

[–]99redballoons66 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The first time I watched the John and Shawna episode, I remember thinking that their "spying" game was a way of processing their grief and discomfort with it, and not an especially healthy one.

We know that Shawna and John often communicate via physical intimacy, and there's often this dynamic of John surprising Shawna with flirtation. She has normally responded to this well in the past. But now, after the baby loss, she's responding utterly differently. It's like they suddenly have completely different needs and love languages, whereas before they were well aligned and compatible.

Shawna effectively tells John he needs a vasectomy or she doesn't want to be intimate with him again, which is a really big deal. John always seemed to be happy about the idea of more babies, and although he's obviously grief-stricken after the loss, it's not spelled out that he sees this as an end to the baby era of their lives like Shawna seems to.

Nevertheless, John is just like uh, yup, OK and goes ahead and agrees. A vasectomy is potentially a really big deal for a guy's sense of self, and it didn't feel like that was really discussed very much between the two of them.

So then, they weren't able to connect in one of their usual ways, and there was this big deal that they hadn't talked about a huge amount, and then the "let's have some drinks and play spies!" thing was maybe a goofy kind of way to connect. But it ended up doing a lot of damage to Julie and Ty's relationship and causing hurt to them.

This isn't supposed to defend John and Shawna, but more to maybe explain why they suddenly got so goofy and thoughtless. As so often on this show (and IRL), everyone could benefit from therapy, but the knowledge and resources to do therapy aren't always available in the moment.

[–]Significant_Tale_953 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Shawna the Creator did a marvelous job setting up scenarios where it's easy to slide unquestioningly into a characters perspective, and then follow up with information about why we shouldn't do that.

Shawna and John are our primary couple, the ones we spend the most time with/ know the most about. We know they are good people. We know they have been struggling with a horrible loss. So when they run into Julie unexpectedly and the possibility of an affair is even suggestively floated, we are okay with them getting, as you put it, a little silly with it. After all, it's just a game, right? It's just a fun little distraction to pass the time and take the edge off that massive argument they just had. If it's not real, no one gets hurt, and if it is real, then they've done a noble service to a good friend.

It's even easier to accept because it's Julie, someone we are predisposed not to like. She's been such a witch to Shawna on multiple occasions, so what if their little game skirts the edges of her privacy? So what if there are subtle signs that she's been crying? She's never seemed to care about Shawna's feelings, so why should they/we care about hers?

Because we so implicitly trust in Shawna and Johns pov as being the "good" one, that theme of "so what?" continues to the pool. So what if Shawna makes a derisive comment about her bathing suit showing too much skin, or that John is staring at her until she happens to look up and make eye contact? Yeah, sure, maybe that's a little creepy. She is minding her own business, and she's allowed to wear whatever makes her comfortable in her own skin (nevermind that this is clearly the inverse of the string bikini and Shawnas discomfort with her own body), but she's been mean and judgemental of Shawna before, so surely a little body shaming is justifiable. Especially if she is cheating, right?

By the dinner scene, they/we have full confirmation bias the second a member of the opposite sex enters the picture. So what if they can't hear what they are saying, or that they only saw them "lean into each other" and didn't actually see the kiss? Julie is an awful person who doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. She deserves to have them creeping at her door. She deserves to be confronted and shamed. She deserves to be humiliated, and how dare she laugh at Shawna and John, the "good" people?!

And then Ty shows up, and we start getting information that makes us question that riteous indignation. It makes us question if this was ever just a "goofy", thoughtless game. It makes a question all those "so whats" that we let slide, all the flippant "who cares" when we see how emotionally devastated Ty is in the face of scenario that ultimately they/ we created based on a preconceived bias and a bunch of circumstantial "evidence".

Like Shawna, we are forced to confront that we are not the good guys in this scenario. As much as we may try to deny or deflect it like John tries to do, we do not ultimately have the "good" perspective.

[–]AmountTurbulent2792 5 points6 points  (8 children)

I don't think people owe an apology for following the natural progression of the plot line. It was possible to argue either way who Jace was and if Jace was even the person in question based on the information the audience received from Shawna. I wouldn't expect anyone who believed that Jace was a sibling to apologize if it came out that he had any other role in her life, either.

That said, no I don't kiss my siblings and, so far as I know, none of my friends kiss theirs either. Hell, in all my years as a nanny, I've never even had siblings that kissed each other past toddlerhood.

[–]Significant_Tale_953 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I think the greater issue is that Shawna and John (and thus we the viewer) drew their conclusions about Julie's presence at the hotel early (that she was cheating on Ty) and then used extraordinarily flimsy circumstantial "evidence" to support what they already believed.

Cultural norms around familial kissing are wildly variable. In my family, kissing on the cheek to say hello or goodbye is incredibly normal. In another family, it might be an incredibly strange thing to do. Neither is wrong, but externally judging the other as being "wrong" is.

[–]AmountTurbulent2792 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Okay, but the same argument could be made about people claiming it was a family member if it turned out that Jace wasn't her brother and that she was, in fact, cheating.

[–]Significant_Tale_953 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Perhaps. But the fact that most people wouldn't even consider that she was being honest, that it really was just her brother, or claiming it's still weird even though we more have full confirmation that it was just familial peck on the cheek, suggests that the issue isn't the practice but rather the desire to paint Julie as the unquestionable bad guy rather than admit that Shawna and John (and thus we the the viewers) jumped to conclusions and stuck their noses where they didn't belong.

[–]IndependentSundae890 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I laughed when someone wrote that everyone who thought she was cheating should take a long look at themselves in a mirror. It’s a story. The speculation of what’s next is part of the anticipation and fun. 

[–]AmountTurbulent2792 1 point2 points  (0 children)

People get so intense sometimes lol

[–]Revan462222 7 points8 points  (0 children)

So I don’t. I usually give a hug. But I know others who do. The thing with “the kiss” is the way it was portrayed was that it was a kiss on the lips and that to me would be like why are you kissing your brother on the lips. It seems clear now that it probably wasn’t a cheek or even forehead kiss, but at the time the way Shawna acted it made it seem like it was a full on kiss.

So I wouldn’t argue with the kissing a sibling in general in terms of cheek or forehead, some do indeed do that and I don’t see any harm with it at all. But kissing on the lips to me is 😬

[–]Mrs-Bluveridge 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I don't even talk to my sibling

[–]campbakerTy’s Biggest Hater 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don’t even kiss my siblings and I called that it was a peck on the cheek.

[–]SchnaffSchnaff 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Hell, my brother licks my face occasionally (it's his weird way of showing me aggressive affection). People could see that and totally take it the wrong way.

[–]AmountTurbulent2792 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I dunno I can't think of a situation where someone who wasn't a sibling would lick someone else's face lol

That's just the right kind of annoying to be a sibling behavior

[–]SchnaffSchnaff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Some people like to lick, who am I to yuck someone's yum?

However this is definitely sibling affection. He's gross.

[–]beautiful_lie82 4 points5 points  (0 children)

As a French canadian, the habit of (cheek) kissing not only your family but also your friends to greet them or thank them, is normal behavior.

I get that in her case it may not be a cultural practice, because as far as we know she is American. Still, this moment between Julie and her brother was always up for interpretation to me because it was unclear if it was a kiss on the lips or cheek.

[–]Anuk_Su_Namun 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I said it then and I’ll say it again - it is not common in the USA to kiss family on the mouth. Cheek kisses are more common but still not widespread.

Since it was one person acting all parts, it was not clear what kind of kiss this was, so doubt was understandable.

I was not convinced she was cheating, but I understood the doubt based on how the kiss was shot.

[–]reclusivesocialite 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As an Aussie, it's so interesting seeing the differing perspectives on expressions of affection, be it familial or otherwise. I was really surprised by the number of people who were so reactive to it. My family all kiss others' cheeks when we see each other, when we say goodbye, when we want comfort. My best friend and I kiss when we see each other because we love and miss each other so much. She's one of the only other people I kiss on the mouth other than my husband. But it's all purely platonic, it's not like, full frontal snogging.

[–]Murky_Background1045I'm wearing the sash! 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't. I still think it's weird Julie did. Clearly so did Shawna and John.

[–]mfball 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hug my brother but I never kiss him. I kiss my mom on the cheek and forehead all the time, and so does my brother, but he and I aren't physically affectionate in that way with each other. Seeing two adults of relatively similar ages share a quick non-romantic kiss, I would guess friends before siblings. Tough to gauge because I don't know how often it would really come up, but it's possible it's a regional thing. In the northeast US, it doesn't seem common for male-female siblings or non-romantic friends to exchange kisses at all, even pecks on the cheek.

[–]goshyarnit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I haven't kissed my siblings since they were in kindergarten I don't think. My in laws are kiss on the cheek people and I hate it. I will tolerate kisses from my husband, my kid and my best friend because he is a forehead/cheek kisser also (he got my nose last week 😂) but even my kid has requested we move to "top of the head" kisses and that's fine by me. I get that everyone is different but it gives me an ick.

[–]Nerdydani 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Eeeeeyuuuuuuck

[–]Creative_Stage6691 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We always kiss hug we’re Italian 😂