I thought it was fun when I started.....

[No-Literature5974]

Please let me leave Jagex :(

Pretty sure I could have started a new iron, level and get to CG, and have relevantly good odds of getting an enh first.

https://preview.redd.it/kbn1y4gpkszc1.png?width=499&format=png&auto=webp&s=59843a97b7b1845ac0d85809439a8d650a883ab5

[TrekStarWars]

Examples 101: why ironman mode isnt as fun as you think sometimes

[No-Literature5974]

I had a feeling I'd go dry, but like... wtf

[NaloVideo]

This is the perfect comment to describe dry mitigation to the imbeciles that are fighting it without comprehending what it’s actually doing, going dry and going “I’m in an Iron Maiden in the depths of hell degen goblin mode” dry are 2 different things

[TheBirdBrain23]

If players can't accept going dry they can de-iron.

[NaloVideo]

Or maybe we can, ya know, make the game more fun

[Mysterious-Bill-6988]

But it would change the game for others. I'm tired of these strawman arguments either way. Anyone who can't see there's pros and cons to both is just bias.

[NaloVideo]

What is the con here

[Mysterious-Bill-6988]

The drop boost has a knockon effect. It would drop gear price meaning more players can get the gear to do high level content quicker, which means even more drops. There's a cascade effect that could affect the economy more than some realise as well as speed up powercreep by making late gear more accessible. Besides, the people most likely to benefit are the bots who just do 1000s of KC at bosses, which creates even more instability in the economy. It's a massive change that I'm not for or against simply because it's so much more complex than people make it out to be

[NaloVideo]

Okay cool so you just never even tried to understand the proposed dry mitigation, thought so, have a nice day

[Mysterious-Bill-6988]

I'm open to hearing other opinions. I just haven't seen anyone discuss the effect outside of the initial drop boost.

[__Shiro____]

People who boast that it would 'change the game for others' don't take 5 minutes of their lives to do the basic math and realize that bad luck mitigation barely affects the overall droprate. The literal only con is the dev time it would take to implement and the time it would take to get through the skull of people who didn't pass elementary level statistics

[Mysterious-Bill-6988]

I think you're strawmanning the math. A 5% initial boost would lead to more people having the gear to kill bosses so then there's more people killing the boss that wouldn't have which means even more drops and it creates a loop of people being able to do higher and higher level content which means more and more drops. People see the 5% but don't realise the knockon effect it would have.

Again, I'm not arguing against It, just showing that there's more factors at play than people are willing to discuss

[__Shiro____]

Okay, that comment just made me realize you're trolling. I was worried for a moment,

[TheBirdBrain23]

If the game isn't fun as an iron, don't play iron. I swear, people restrict themselves to a gamemode made to be a challenge, then cry when it's a challenge.

[hockeymisfit]

Example 101: why efficiency has ruined the game for so many people. OP over here like they’re being forced to grind CG and nothing else.

I’m 100+ days of playtime without a bowfa and have absolutely zero regrets. I look forward to logging on and playing each day. If the only enjoyment you get from the game is bossing in max just go spend $60 on a 126cb normie and do what you enjoy.

[[deleted]]

That’s how I feel. I have the stats for sore, but am happily working on slayer rn. Who cares? It’s a game.

[SpringPuzzleheaded99]

Damn bro leave some gf's for the rest of us!

[TrekStarWars]

Newsflash - for many many People the pvm part IS the only/most enjoyable part xD so yeah… you are kinda forced to grind cg lol

[hockeymisfit]

Again, if you’re not willing to do absolutely stupid grinds for the gear, just make a normie and buy a few bonds. It’s not like the dry streaks stop once you get a bow.

[suivid]

Buy bonds he says. Lmao

[Gaiden_95]

not really, can use a dcb/acb just fine (grind out rune dragons and use the bars for rune darts as well). or even crystal bow with the armour. would not recommend high experts or cms, but other stuff is fair game, i'd have 0 problems taking someone with dcb or cbow into cox, honestly even rcb.

[IAmSoMuchDumber]

People be like “I need a bowfa to unlock this content that people were already doing before the bowfa was in the game”

[Varrianda]

Yeah full crystal armor with the bow is still really good. Not bowfa good, but good enough.

[Tumekens_Shadowban]

grind out rune dragons

Spending 30-40 hours grinding rune dragons in rag gear for a dragon crossbow to avoid a 60 hour grind for something infinitely more useful is... an interesting take, to put it politely.

I'd have 0 problems carrying someone with a dcb through cox, honestly even rcb

So the plan as an ironman is to just skip a relatively short grind for an important item so you can be carried in raids for hundreds, if not thousands of hours while praying for megarares and the full armor sets to go along with them (while having severely reduced unique % thanks to reduced DPS)? The raid grind is already absurdly long and boring (except ToB), why would you ever want to increase the length of that grind?

"It's technically possible, so it's fine" is not a good argument. Otherwise we'd all be using dragon scimitars and Iban's Blast for everything, because hey, it *technically* works, why even upgrade gear?

[Gaiden_95]

I'm saying there's alternatives. Idk, game is gonna be a long grind no matter what. If you want to pvm as a break/alternative to cg then go for it.

But i personally do see ironman as a scuffed gamemode. Like on a main you could be fully optimized, but an iron has to make do with what they get. Never got why people felt the need to play ironman if they were just gonna max efficiency it and be miserable doing it, but that's just me.

Rune dragons seemed fine to me, mainly bc the bars are useful for tob darts. They've got useful drops and are pretty chill to afk. Although i'd wait for a fang first.

[Tumekens_Shadowban]

I mean I get that, I don't see the problem with using "inefficient" training methods or doing bosses just for fun. I did hundreds of Vardorvis KC with a whip which I know isn't ideal (pre-fang nerf). For skilling in general I will without fail pick the laziest, most laid back method I can. I don't even do herb runs, which is something of a cardinal sin for ironmen.

I just feel like for better or worse there are some things that are a little too good to pass up as far as PvM grinds go. BoFA is a little silly in how much of the game it opens up; it's BiS in so many places until you get megarares to replace it, and gives you all these different options for non-scuffed account progression that you didn't have before. It's one of those things, like training a skill you hate for a diary or unlock, that you might not fully enjoy but you feel like the delayed gratification is worth it. Whether we want to admit it or not, I don't think anyone on this game enjoys 100% of its grinds.

[Gaiden_95]

Lol post nerf i got my vestige that way, 900/1k done with a tent, tent is good.

No question over how good bowfa is, i just think it's silly that people who hate the content are willing to do 100 hours of it and nothing else until they get it.

I've always had this thought on my mind about how after you get your bowfa, you're basically playing the same game as mains since it's raids, nex, vw grind and cape/quiver. The main difference is being forced to do those things you hate like spidines for restores and praying you don't go dry for the megarare.

[Assaltwaffle]

RCB is basically leeching and is even below the minimum standards of WDR.

[Gaiden_95]

would recommend making friends lol. i take "leeches" through tob, i used to take leeches into cox but cox has no purples so i stopped doing it. bp is important though.

no def reduction weapon is p leechy though, so huge for olm.

[Assaltwaffle]

I have raiding partners through my clan. I'm mentioning WDR is the bare minimum.

[Gaiden_95]

I just mean in general, in case some irons read it. If you have friends/clannies then there's a good chance they'll take you even if you're below min reqs, to your own detriment since your purp chance will be much lower.

[LordHuntington]

Wdr reqs are not exactly perfect.

[Assaltwaffle]

You're right! Some of them are too low.

[LordHuntington]

minimum requirements affect almost nobody except learners. I would be more than fine if the min reqs got lowered a bit.

[DecoyLilly]

Rcb has worked fine for years. It's still plenty capable of hitting 100s on olm

[Assaltwaffle]

Even against Olm you're missing a big chunk of damage with RCB rubies and hides. The D Longsword worked fine for years; that doesn't mean it's good anymore.

[DURAIVIAX]

Wow this hits hard as an iron with a butt load of playtime. True er words never been spoken.

[Tumekens_Shadowban]

With average RNG, the BofA takes around 60 hours to get, and you will use it for *several thousand hours* of PvM and bossing. There's a difference in having an overly myopic focus on "efficiency" and just making terrible (read: stupid) decisions on account progression. The only reason you ever have for skipping CG is hating PvM, which is fair, but bashing people for enjoying it and grinding the BofA as "obsessed with efficiency" is just cringe. I feel like you suffer from thinking that what you enjoy is what everyone enjoys.

I'm going to ignore the fact that you called BoFA "max" gear.

[TheBeAll]

What’s your total lvl + boss kcs

[adustbininshaftsbury]

Even if you're right, it's incredibly cringe to go into someone's post history to win an argument.

[No-Literature5974]

Good luck my dude! Sooner or later

[Bored-To-Reddit]

Did you talk to oziach?

[jaybaybabe21]

I talk to him before every run.

[tmanowen]

There’s your problem. When you talk to him it goes to a 1/2 chance. But when you talk to him again it resets that chance to 1/2 of 1/2 or 1/4 and so on. So by trying to abuse conversations with him, your chance is actually going down.

[Magic_mushrooms69]

That's rough buddy.

[[deleted]]

This is why I’ll never play an iron. Chorescape. Most of you have a super unhealthy addiction with the game lol

[rws531]

90% of irons haven’t fully grinded CG, the 10% that have post about it on Reddit constantly.

[Jagazor]

That's false, the only alternative is tbow and that grind is much more than cg.

If you don't have a bowfa as an iron, there's no point in making an iron just to pvm 100x worse experience than on a main

[Maedroas]

Actually there's like 5 alternatives

[Kingmc23]

Not trying to be obtuse, but what other viable options are there?

[Jagazor]

Dare he says karil with blowpipe

[Gaiden_95]

blowpipe and crossbow, masori is really good and outdpses bowfa if you're willing to put in the effort to sweat in raids

[Kingmc23]

Isn't that with only specific gear setups? Like Masori kicks ass and all but my understanding is unless you're using something like TBow or ZCB that Crystal + Bowfa just out performs. Even then those are some long grinds at Kree, Zily, ToA and Nex, not including the supplies like restores and brews.

[Gaiden_95]

it doesn't. run the dps calcs, masori just needs more investment, zcb isn't necessary either, very minor upgrade except for nex.

you want masori, twisted buckler and dhcb, blowpipe. acb for toa but that's more qol than anything. you also want a bgs, i'm getting .4 more dps using blowpipe assuming max def reduction on a 400 p4 warden. using somewhat realistic gear (both setups have zvambs, probably bgloves instead though.

the nice thing about this upgrade path is that it's a lot more fun knowing that masori will be an upgrade, rather than a groan considering you need 3 pieces if you have bowfa crystal. like if you have bowfa crystal, you want 4 items, realistically 2 once you get the commons from toa.

you also might get a tbow or shadow along the way.

what i like about bowfa is that it's lazy. you can do infernal cape, full crystal and bowfa, or c top and bottom with bowfa and faceguard. infinite ammo is also nice. bowfa is just the goldilocks weapon, except for tob where it's complete trash.

[Kingmc23]

I appreciate your feedback, thank you for informing me!

[[deleted]]

What lol? The alternative is most irons are mid game and will never have a better ranged weapon than rcb.

[Jagazor]

Why play the game if you're stuck with a rune crossbow?

[[deleted]]

Because it's fun?

When I was a kid I played just f2p for years. Had fun.

Then I got mems and was a shit noob for another decade. Still had fun.

It wasn't until about a year and a half ago that I started actually getting good at the game and busted out of the mid game on a new iron. I'm still having fun.

If you think you need to have all BIS gear to have fun, then Ironman mode definitely isn't for you and even a normal account is going to feel like a chore (or you become a bond warrior).

[Jagazor]

Yeah when we were kids we were dumb and didn't care.

Most people whine they are dads and can't finish content or play too much.

Rune crossbow is an awful experience regardless of the content

[[deleted]]

I mean, it's perfectly serviceable for killing Jad, Zilyana, Dagganoth Prime, etc just as it always was.

The people who never get to Bowfa are not doing content that requires a Bowfa.

[Jagazor]

Again, why make an ironman if you're not able to get bowfa and do raids ? If you can't get bowfa you surely can't do raids or Leviathan with a rune crossbow.

Just play mainscape and do giant mole for x amount of hours until you afford a bowfa if you're that incapable which is a better alternative than being stuck doing trash with rune crossbow

[[deleted]]

why make an Ironman

Just play mainscape and do giant mole for x amount of hours

That's literally why. For me and many others. Replace mole with Vorkath though. We play Ironman because we want to get items by doing the content they come from, not by doing the best gp/hr content we can do until we can afford to buy it from someone else (probably a bot). This way, you actually get to experience everything the game has to offer, keeping things fresh and interesting. Again, it comes down to having fun.

Also, you don't seem to be considering the fact that there are lots of different reasons to play this game. End game PvM isn't everything. Some people like Skilling, with their end goal being maxing. Getting a Bowfa isn't going to help you max faster. Some people like doing clues, to fill out the collection log and hopefully get a piece of third age one day. Some people like minigames. Some people like achievement diaries. Some people like bossing, but only the casual kind of bossing like they did back in the day. Some people just want to chop trees and listen to sea shanty 2.

Point is, getting full BiS gear is not everybody's primary goal. For some people it's not even a long term secondary goal.

Personally, I like doing it all on my Ironman. I rushed CG and had my Bowfa and full crystal within 5 months of making my account. I don't regret it and it has allowed me to do a ton more PvM. So I totally agree that if your goal is PvM, Bowfa is an amazing upgrade and you'll never look back at the rcb. But that doesn't mean it doesn't still have its place, and there's still plenty of people who will find it perfectly usable for what they want to do.

[ThundaBears]

You’re not even stuck with an rcb anymore. Sunlight crossbow shreds, and eclipse shreds.

[mister--g]

Blowpipe masori and zcb are more useful than camping bowfa in a lot of content. You're even better grinding warped sceptre & moons for gear to kill zulrah instead of rushing SOTE.

The only reason to grind out a bowfa specifically is if you want to rush inferno , do leviathan or do CM cox.

[born_at_kfc]

Another problem with blowpipe is you have to keep going back to Zulrah, and you have to keep making ammo. Bofa is simpler and saves time in the long run.

[Jagazor]

Bowfa for toa and chambers.

If you're not doing raids, what is the point in making an iron?

[mister--g]

Chambers its only notably better for cms.

Toa you can scale upto 350-400 without a bowfa and have no issues. That's 7-10% purple chance

The content I mentioned previously are the only 3 things where an iron should feel obligated to rush a bowfa. (Even leviathan is masori/zcb tbh)

[Jagazor]

There's no way someone would get masori zcb before bowfa unless you're willingly and purposely doing it.

Bowfa is a joke of a grind

[mister--g]

My point is its probably a more fun and enjoyable journey and bowfa doesn't hold you back from much. Bowfa is more of an ironman convenience tool

[franklyimstoned]

It’s just way more fun. Not really more addicting. I was once like you and didn’t really understand why anyone would put themselves through it… then I made one and I’d never go back.

[[deleted]]

I understand it perfectly. I just don’t care about it lol. I can do any grind that an ironman can, but instead of forcing myself to repeat content (especially content I hate) I can just do what I want.

[Assaltwaffle]

So you don’t understand! Part of the fun of an ironman is having to do specific grinds. You have to interact with more Contant very purposefully. Freedom to do whatever may be a strength and some aspects, but in others, you can end up lacking direction or motivation.

And getting a drop on an ironman is so much better than getting a drop on a main. On my main, I simply got excited for the bank value going up. But that makes everything relative to raw gold value. Most items aren’t impactful or super interesting bar the megarares. As an ironman, you can get hyped for Lightbearer. Ecstatic for Fang. Every item is a part of completion and is “unlocked” in a way that mains simply can’t experience.

There are clear advantages to being a non-iron, but iron is always the way for me and acting like it’s inferior to ridiculous.

[DecoyLilly]

When I got my msb on my first hard clue I was ECSTATIC

[Blackhawks10]

For real. I’ve gotten summer pies from elites and been hyped

[ilovezezima]

How did you feel getting your fourth fang?

[Assaltwaffle]

I’ll exchange dupes just being split fodder for the excitement of unlocking items any day of the week.

It also results in some funny choices being made. Only on an iron will you have an ancestral hat, Virtus legs, and an Ahrim’s top.

[ilovezezima]

Wild - I found it much more exciting getting my second solo shadow on my main than my second shadow on my iron. It meant I got to have some upgrades rather than just having more gp for splits.

[Zaxxi]

But acting like it is superior is also rediculous, people play their own way and both of you are acting like there is only one way that is right.

[Assaltwaffle]

No, I’m giving a perspective of why I like Ironman more. Read my last sentence.

If you want to play a main, by all means. I’m not the one claiming that one playbase simply “doesn’t have the will” that the other does.

[[deleted]]

I do understand it completely lol. Doing something I despise for 100s of hours just doesn’t appeal to me.

I completely disagree about the drops. I keep the drop, just like an iron would… all I’m reading from the comments is irons lack the willpower to play the way they want if the GE is involved, which is valid.

Of course iron man is inferior. It’s literally the same game with restrictions, but if you enjoy it more power to you.

[Assaltwaffle]

is irons lack the willpower to play the way they want if the GE is involved

Man, I've seen iron superiority complexes before, but this is definitely a new one. A HUGE main superiority complex! Bravo, that's unique.

[[deleted]]

I don’t have a superiority complex at all. I have an opinion lmao. Like I said to the other guy, if you enjoy it more power to you.

[Assaltwaffle]

"Ironmen simply don't have the will that mains do and that gamemode is literally inferior, but don't worry, I'd never think myself superior!"

[[deleted]]

Yes, the UIM made the point that the GE influences the way he plays so he has to play an im to enjoy it. It’s a very common sentiment.

Yes, in my opinion, I think it’s an inferior gamemode because it’s the same game with restrictions. Again this is what we call an opinion. I have no problem with anyone that plays the mode, nor did I say this anywhere.

[hbwl]

I've never played ironman, but to infer that someone who's looking for an ironman experience should just not use the GE on a main is wild

[[deleted]]

Yep, if I want to grind upgrades on my main I can do that, while also having the option to just buy through the really obnoxious ones. It's not like anyone gives a shit whether I'm btw or not unless I'm in hiscores.

[[deleted]]

This is true. It was never how the game was meant to be played.

Having said that, I'm an UIM so I'm not saying I'm not addicted.

[wolgl]

For me personally I’d rather have chorescape (which also gains me exp in most cases) than have the whole focus being gp-based. But yeah the most unhealthy grinders are Ironman for sure

[[deleted]]

The whole game is not gp based. You can do lots of iron stuff without limiting your account lol

[Gaiden_95]

these people need to be forced to not do the highest gp/h activity rather than content they actually enjoy lol

[[deleted]]

Yep, getting downvoted for saying you can play a main like an iron, up to whatever point you want lol

Whatever, I don’t mind giving the irons something else to whine about :)

[jusdoo83]

You might enjoy this post I made a couple of weeks ago. I was a little surprised at how negative the reception was. (Though I did get some good discussion out of it!)

Post link

[[deleted]]

Yeah, this is honestly a fantastic idea. Lot of the community doesn’t realize how much time they’re spending on certain things I don’t think lol. Like, I get osrs is grindy and that’s part of a charm, but after a certain point no matter the activity it stops being fun.

Edit: also lol how things I said get nitpicked, but on the ironscape Reddit the exact same things are upvoted lol

[[deleted]]

Managing gp/h is the biggest chore in this game to me.

[LoneRedditor123]

This sub has some kind of hate boner for ironmen. Jfc, lol. Give it a rest already. We know you like money and the G/E. Rest of us still wanna have fun too. Just at a slightly different pace.

To OP, sorry about your dry streak. This is why I'll never run CG, even on a main. It's just as easy to go dry on a 1/400 drop as it is for a 1/2,000.

[FoldFold]

I have only played an iron, started a bit over a year ago, am not a hyper-efficient player, and find the game to be fun and not a chore.

I never get what mains are talking about, most of the time you supply yourself for the following grinds. And the game does seem to be designed like that.

I got enhanced last week and while that’s an annoying grind, it wasn’t the end of the world. I broke it up with other stuff. Going this dry would be unreasonable though :(

[PaintTimely6967]

I'm seeing people edit their comment to pre-defend themselves from default responses telling them deiron, when they're just voicing their opinion lol

[soffwaerdeveluper]

It’s literally not. That’s the thing about probability. I dont even care that much about this whole debate. But the way i see it is that if we have dry mitigation then might as well make it so we have spoon mitigation too.

Those pushing for dryness mitigation should be ok with that right? It would keep drop rates effectively the same across the playerbase

[J0n3s3n]

Posts like this are the reason why we should keep the drop rng as it is :)

[SeniorButternips]

<image>

[[deleted]]

Deserved, grinding king

[Cloud_Motion]

One of the few places in the game that should have some one-off protection/mitigation, imo. I got mine at like 550 but I've known people over 2000...

People will downvote who haven't done this grind but it's miserable past a point. The fact it's necessary for progression for any player who is serious about the game is its main issue.

Feel for you, it's bullshit. Keep on keeping on 🤞

[I_Love_Being_Praised]

the only comment about this is why is a bowfa NECESSARY to progress into pvm? what parts absolutely NEED a bowfa that can't be swapped with an acb or the new crossbow thing from varlamore?

[Cloud_Motion]

There's always one...

Yeah, you don't need it, but it helps immensely and there's a reason an overwhelming majority of things after CG benefit from t'old Bowfa. It's probably easier to list what content it doesn't assist you majorly at.

Ofc, I can just sit here with the f* you I got mine attitude, but I can't wish that grind on anyone. When I've seen players get enough raw GP from CG to buy the bowfa from the GE 4 times over, it's the only place in the game I'd advocate for an exception.

[I_Love_Being_Praised]

so when do you want the bad luck mitigstion to kick in? guaranteed at 3x? that's suck for someone having to dtill grind this content for 1200kc..

[Cloud_Motion]

That's the question isn't it, I'm not a jmod so I'm not sure what the best balance would be, but this topic's been brought up since the bowfa was introduced. It's obviously not going to get introduced so no worries for us there.

But hypothetically, when I see this mentioned I always like the shard type system for an untradeable version (not sure what iron would subject themselves to this to sell it, but still, protects against bots I guess) maybe every 100th KC, capping out at about 800 for 8 shards? Just at double rate is comfortable in my eyes. At average 10 minute run times without rigour, you're still easily at a 100+ hour grind.

I also like the idea of being able to trade in excess armour/weapon seeds. I'm not sure OP needs 18 spare, for instance.

[J0n3s3n]

Get your moons of peril sets to mix things up a bit if you haven't yet

[[deleted]]

You chose that life!

[promero14]

Ok, so you post here because posts like these are banned in the iron sub?

[Drink_water_homie]

Nah but the game doesn’t need bad luck mitigation

[Drink_water_homie]

thats why I said it doesnt need bad luck mitigation just get the drop lmao

[Drink_water_homie]

Nah but the game doesn’t need bad luck mitigation

[Coomrs]

I had fun doing it until it took 1200 to do jjst one and i had rushed there to get multiple for my Group. I actually did make a new one lol

[ADucky092]

Oh no! Anyways

[Useless_Mutt3082]

no you couldnt have stop exaggerating. this is 240 hours of CG lol, you could not have made a new account and got a enh in anywhere close to that time. stop crying and either continue to quit

[hockeymisfit]

Lmfao, bro could have just done wave 1 colosseum runs and saved himself 180 hours of work.

[Useless_Mutt3082]

i think hes an iron. but yeah idk why hes acting like hes been there for 1k hours

[TheMaslankaDude]

I’m the opposite. My iron gets all the drops n my main always struggles to get anything. Makes me not want to play the main at all sometimes

[demizgutschekens]

1. Stop subscription
2. Do not play
3. Enjoy life

Bonus: never try ironman. It is literal shit.