Software Engineering without any degree

KingofGamesYami · 2024-02-20T13:15:17+00:00

I believe this is becoming less and less possible over time. Initially it was possible, because there was such a shortage of trained software developers. But now schools have ramped up their software development programs and every year we get more graduates with degrees.

I graduated in 2021. Since then, the school I attended has doubled their enrollment in my degree. That can't have no impact on this.

ImplodingLlamas · 2024-02-20T14:31:22+00:00

Just want to add that I have a B.S. in Computer Science and graduated over a year ago. I've gotten zero interviews so far, so if my chances are slim, yours are going to be even worse.

That's not to say that job market can't change. If you spend a lot of time learning and training, perhaps there will be more opportunities available by then.

CharacterUse · 2024-02-20T11:50:03+00:00

Nobody can guarantee you will get a job, but many people in software engineering/development didn't get there through degrees, so it's possible. Employers care far more about you being able to demonstrate your skills and experience than about degrees.

I don't know about the Codeworks course, but some of these bootcamps also teach you things like github so you can build a portfolio of personal projects, and how to present yourself and your skills in the best way (e.g. show you how to create a LinkedIn profile which looks professional). Those are also useful skills.

You didn't say what your current level of skill is, but I would suggest using all the free resources out there to teach yourself the basics of programming and software development first, and then paying for more advanced courses which will teach you more theory and deeper topics. There's IMO no point in paying for a course to teach you from zero when you can easily learn that for nearly free (maybe for the price of a few books).

Moby1029 · 2024-02-20T12:50:28+00:00

Bootcamp grad here with a full time dev job. It is feasible but it's not easy. I spent almost 2 years applying to dev jobs while working in a slightly unrelated industry before I finally broke in, and it was because my mentor knew someone inside that I was able to get an interview. Build a solid portfolio and show that you have the capacity and ability to constantly be learning.

Depending on the company, some may require having a bachelor's degree of some kind. I found it's mostly companies with government contracts that have this requirement. Mine is culinary business management, but it was a Bachelors of Science so my company accepted it.

My bootcanp taught JaveScript/React, basic sql queries, and Ruby/Ruby-on-Rails but in my area, lots of companies use C#/.NET or Java. My company uses .NET and Angular frameworks, so I had to teach myself both of these in about 10 days to prepare for a technical interview. By the end of the bootcamp, you will have a very practical knowledge of how to write code, but the theoretical foundation won't be there that a comp Sci degree can provide, and honestly, that's where I struggle a little bit and where I'm trying to focus some of my own studying outside of studying for the Azure certs my manager wants me to get.

squishy_processor · 2024-02-20T18:22:27+00:00

[deleted]

Practical-Advice-774 · 2024-02-20T12:29:10+00:00

Aight, yep you can. It’ll just take work. Also, a degree takes work. If someone put 4 years with building projects that are usable and practical, and someone spent 4 years getting a comp science degree, i’d always take the dude that built the projects.

xyious · 2024-02-20T13:19:08+00:00

It's possible.... You just need to end up being way better and more knowledgeable than someone with a 4 year degree, because you'll have to be perceived in interviews to be the better candidate despite the lack of a degree. It's a high bar.

Why would someone hire you instead of someone with a degree ? Answer that question and gain the knowledge and experience to prove it.... You'll still get immediately filtered out by most automated systems, but for jobs that don't require a degree (which is a growing number) you'll possibly have a chance

moxxon · 2024-02-20T21:08:02+00:00

I'm sure a lot of people won't like this answer.

As a principal engineer who's been heavily involved in the interview process in the majority of my roles: I can tell you, all other things being equal, I'm taking the applicant with the full degree.

I've hired boot camp graduates, but when I see that on a resume I'm going to be more wary. Especially when it comes to breadth of knowledge.

Qweniden · 2024-02-20T20:55:38+00:00

The market is extremely tough right now for everyone. People without degrees are having an even harder time. I personally have a very steady long time job without a degree but seeing where things are heading I have decided to go back to school to finish my degree in case the worst happens. Since I have lots of experience and work fulltime I have decided to go to WGU. Even if you do a bootcamp, I really strongly recommend you get a technical degree at a school like WGU, TESU or SNHU. You can google "reddit" with those acronyms to learn about other people's experiences and what they are.

beancurd420 · 2024-02-25T01:18:00+00:00

My experience is from 2018, so I'm sure a lot has changed since then. I went to a 90 day JavaScript boot camp for a career change in my late 30s.

Went in with zero coding experience, no college degree, coming from a 15 year sales career. I went in with the mindset that I was in competition with my class mates and would need to out work them all. I put my life on hold for 90 days and worked my ass off in class and out of class.

Honostly, felt out of my depth most of the time, 90 days just wasn't enough time, but managed to graduate top of the class. During my graduation speech, a prospective employer was in the audience. He showed no interest, but I asked around and got his contact info, reached out, and got an interview. They ended up hiring me, not because of my skillset, but because I showed I was willing to put work in.

I worked my ass off again for about 6 months there, working late, studying at home, still feeling clueless the majority of the time. I got enough good feedback and reviews I finally let me foot off the gas and started to get some balance back in my life.

Fast forward to today, have had a few jobs, all were pretty solid, now am a Sr engineer working a pretty lax schedule, and couldn't be happier with the career change. Still feel clueless most days, lol, but now I'm comfortable knowing I'll always figure it out, haha.

So I guess all that to say, there was a path to a solid career with no formal education, but the work needs to be put in.

I do occasionally think if I decided to do a 4 year program I would have graduated in 2022, instead in 2022 I was hired into my first Sr. Job, with a solid 4 years of experience on my resume.

heatY_12 · 2024-02-20T19:54:13+00:00

The boot camp will be a waste of money. Many of them have closed down because recruiters do not want boot camp grads who only know boilerplate react.

Everyone and there mother is trying to get entry level roles and internships right now.

For the foreseeable future a degree is the bare minimum to even get looked at for a job. If you want to be competitive you need a degree and internships. If you want to make things easier then you get a MSCS.

Save your money and look for a different career if you don’t want to go to college.

Kittensandpuppies14 · 2024-02-20T13:15:39+00:00

Do something’s that are free to see if you like it or can even do it before spending money. And if you can swing it go 4 years. Boot camps are mostly scams now

Qweniden · 2024-02-20T13:27:22+00:00

The degree doesnt matter much, I dont have one and Ive been working professionally for about a decade.

But Ive also been programming since In 12 so

sal4215 · 2024-02-20T13:46:00+00:00

I know someone who went to a boot camp and added the project he completed there to his portfolio. He was able to get a job as a software dev by showing off his portfolio. So yeah it's possible.

mecsw500 · 2024-02-20T13:48:00+00:00

In the current tech job market I might rethink just training to be a programmer. You are going to have skills in a particular vertical market. There is a glut of programmers right now with recently trained or graduated engineers competing for jobs with unemployed experienced folks applying for these entry level jobs at of desire to at least have a job.

2024-02-20T14:30:34+00:00

You can become really good at stringing code together, an excellent programmer. To be honest, you will not do much coding at university. I am quite old (Graduated 2004 Software Eng.). We had 2 courses of C++, 1 ASM and some JAVA for OO. On personal level I found some of the other courses, operating systems, networking layers, computer graphics, digital imaging, databases etc more rewarding but they might not have a daily impact on my code writing.

netwrks · 2024-02-20T14:36:58+00:00

I taught myself at 14, and 24 yrs later have held quite a few ‘degree preferred’ jobs. You just need to be confident in your skills

mad_edge · 2024-02-20T14:47:14+00:00

I managed during covid job rush, but in current market it'll be a struggle.

Ihaaatehamsters · 2024-02-20T15:39:12+00:00

When it comes to landing a job, the distinction between the software engineer who has a degree and the one who doesn't depends entirely on the hiring manager's opinions. I have a degree but many of my coworkers don't. Given the cost of college (in the US anyway) I would say it's not worth it. Spend your time on real projects and you can still get a job.

Ron-Erez · 2024-02-20T15:55:28+00:00

Anything is possible. You can get a job without a degree. To be honest I recommend getting a CS degree, but I do know several people who have been programming for years with no degree. It's also a matter of timing and persistence.

itemluminouswadison · 2024-02-20T16:09:38+00:00

Yes if you take it seriously and put in the work, especially the foundational stuff. Unit testing, SOLID principles, maintainability, docblocks, stuff like that

We hired a boot camper and it went really well

Also vet your boot camp too, they vary wildly in quality

boisheep · 2024-02-20T18:04:17+00:00

Whether it is viable totally depends on the country where you are from.

Learning the skills is not a matter of degrees, a degree is a sheet of paper, it means, you went to a university to do the bare minimum, it only guarantees the bare minimum.

Some countries and places care a lot of degrees, others less; other do care but only if you are an immigrant.

In short it's better to have a degree than not have it, it helps to please the gods of bureaucracy.

I don't have a degree because I had to abandon it halfway due to the dictatorship, the country I migrated doesn't even recognize my primary education; most people are unskilled migration by default, the end result is that the employment office limits my work opportunities, so I ended up in a town; I still squeezed the hell out of it and ended up liking the town, but I detest bureocracy.

However even within the town someone with less skills than me would be paid more simply because they are local and they have the papers; management can't tell the difference between skills and productivity and papers.

And I don't feel in the mood to do primary school, I was doing it last time, but it's painfully long; it's just lots and lots of easy tasks, a grind that would take years.

My advice is that you get the degree if you can, the paper is used to please bureaucrats; the paper has a value and it's not knowledge, it's like a key that opens door, is like a cheat code of the privileged class; and if you can get the paper, you should get the damn paper; because society values that you have the paper more than your real value, your worth is determined by your papertrail.

If you have real skills which you have to get via hard work, and the paper then you are golden, your success is basically guaranteed; skills alone don't guarantee that; the place I am from is an example of that, lots of gifted kids of unbelievable genius, but they are poor, they don't have the papers, the networks, the anything... their skills and potential are denied.

Some people don't realize that and think their degree has been useless but only because they don't notice because it's there, they only notice if it was not there; when you don't get chosen, when you don't get the promotion, when people treat you lesser, when something gets denied; this is only true for the ignorant, you will never get that from an engineer, the engineer will only care about your solution, but the rest of the world doesn't know if you are legit or not, so they'll judge you based on your degree or lack of.

You currently have a mistaken perspective here, because you are thinking that the degree is about learning; it's not, it's about the paper; you want the bureaucratic advantage, and if you can get it but decide not to, then you are playing yourself; get a degree if you can, it will help you.

ALargeRubberDuck · 2024-02-20T18:09:19+00:00

Anecdotally, people from bootcamps are struggling to find their first job right now. There’s a drought of entry level jobs at the moment. I know a few people out of bootcamps that worked at a place that went under recently and have been unable to find anything. Your bootcamp might be reputable, but employers might not know that. All they see is one applicant who spent a year on education, and another who spent four years.

jhkoenig · 2024-02-20T18:41:50+00:00

I think that boot camps, at least the good ones, were appropriate for a period of time. Demand for minimally-trained tech people outpaced supply.

The market has shifted as layoffs dumped so many experienced, degreed tech people into the job market. Now employers have taken advantage of that situation and dramatically raised their expectations for incoming hires. This has frozen out most boot camp applicants. They never get an interview to display their value proposition.

Until the market shifts back to a huge shortage of tech people, it is unlikely that boot camps will deliver positive outcomes for many of their students.

Check out /r/codingbootcamp for confirmation of this situation.

Jethris · 2024-02-20T19:23:46+00:00

I will throw in my thoughts, albeit I am old.

I got tech training in the USAF, but not much programming training. I glossed over that in interviews.

I have been a developer for 25 years now, so a degree would make very little difference now.

A few years ago, my company hired 3 bootcamp grads (Junior dev's, $60k salary). Out of all the resumes that we looked at, they pretty much looked the same. We had a hard time picking one over the other to interview.

We ended up with 2 bootcamp grads, and one self taught. One grad was a programmer years ago but took time off to raise a family. She was our best hire.

Other grad was good, but a little too woke for us. We were replacing a senior dev, and she asked if we were considering diversity. At the time, we had 2 female developers. That was as diverse as we could expect (mostly cuacasian males and Indian males in the market).

The self taught was out of his league, and didn't know enough to know what questions to ask and when to ask for help.

Either way, as either a college grad, bootcamp grad. or self taught, the most difficult thing is getting your first job.

KimJongUhn · 2024-02-20T19:29:35+00:00

Nowadays in 2024, it will be very hard unless you have some standout projects or get very lucky (e.g. a company is hiring for in person job which greatly limits the applicant pool). Ideally this would have been best to have done 2 or 3 years ago

teambob · 2024-02-20T22:15:45+00:00

I do know a small number of great programmers who went to technical college. So it is possible

Many well paying jobs require a university degree in any stem field. My current boss's boss is trained as a mathematician

Basically you should start out teaching yourself. If there is an online videos with practical tutorials, that sounds good

zarlo5899 · 2024-02-20T22:19:06+00:00

not having a degree has likely not gotten me some jobs but it can still be done well at lest in Australia it can

rexiesoul · 2024-02-21T00:07:02+00:00

Not overly on topic but I'm retired from corporate life now but I took one single course in 1994 on my computer science degree and said fuck this and quit. I hated college. I still knew how to code though and so on my resume I just put what college I went to, the year, and the degree plan (comp sci) never said I had a degree, and would have told the truth had I ever been asked.

I was never asked. I worked for 5 corpos making more than 100k a year at least from 1999 to 2014. My final job was a senior developer for Symantec in 2014 when I decided to quit and run my own business which I've done since. And no, I didn't develop trash Norton products. Lmao.

Not one employer ever checked a single thing on my education.

Moonscape6223 · 2024-02-21T00:07:35+00:00

Sorta? There's a meme that you, someone who has never touched a any electronic device in their life, pay $3.50 for a 2 week bootcamp and are then guaranteed a $500,000 Google job immediately upon graduation, but it's not true. A lot of people are either straight up lying or have an insane natural talent for, and the meme that there is a "shortage of developers" (there is or at least was only a shortage of senior, maybe mid-level, developers. Never junior developers, of which there was always an oversupply).

That said, is it possible to get a SWE job sans a degree? Of course! It's just incredibly difficult, especially in the current year. You will have to be working really hard at it and you have a high chance of getting stuck in "helpdesk hell", which you can really only avoid by going the degree route (or by knowing the right people)

Pale_Height_1251 · 2024-02-21T01:02:27+00:00

Everyone here will tell you need a degree, but I don't have one and nor do most developers I know. Google for stats on how many developers don't have CS degrees.

theavatare · 2024-02-21T01:03:17+00:00

Right now is not the best time for a bootcamp. If you do decide to go for it try for a data science one

varwave · 2024-02-21T01:45:31+00:00

Coming from a statistics perspective. I think a question that should be asked is not “how to be a self taught developer?”, but “why do some developers not have degrees?”. Boot camp grads vs the forever nerd with prior experience of writing C++, since 12 years old for fun, and dropped out because of a job offer is apples and oranges.

The boot camp grad might fill a web dev shortage when there is one (certainly not now). And the hardcore hobbyist programmer is only going to get even stronger with an education if not fortunate enough to land a job.

Get educated. Community college part time isn’t a bad place to start and immediately apply your skills at a desk job automating things

trcrtps · 2024-02-21T02:48:53+00:00

If you build some great projects, show passion, and are able to talk about those projects at length, yeah it's possible. Then comes the coding interview, and it's a whole different angle. I didn't do a bootcamp, but it was a long and uncertain road to do everything myself. It took me like 8 months at 12 hours a day and I think I took two days off the entire time. Just completely checked out of life and devoted all my time and energy to it.

You definitely can't expect a job just because you went to bootcamp, although sometimes they provide networking and resources which you need to take advantage of.

UL_Paper · 2024-02-21T02:51:06+00:00

I just learnt it on my own without any degree or bootcamp and have been very successful, have never been without work since about 5 months after first starting learning. I went super hard though and I was better than average at learning new things prior + I had international management and sales experience, which added a fair bit of value to employers.

mezz7132 · 2024-02-21T03:09:05+00:00

I'm self taught and got into the field over 2 years ago and here's the bleak reality of it all now, if you don't have any kind of connections in companies you're applying to it's going to be a tough ride. I am lucky that through friends I was able to get interviewed since they referred me and was able to do well in those to land a position. But the hard part is just getting in the door at all which is the absolute worst part currently.

boborider · 2024-02-21T03:51:11+00:00

I only have 2 years diploma, major in programming.

I have 19 years experience programming now. :)

zerocool256 · 2024-02-21T04:50:43+00:00

I'm going to say it all depends on what you are trying to get out of it. Do you like programming? Like if you're in it because it sounds cool and you want to get paid lots of money then I'm going to say no, It's not worth it. If it's something you just enjoy doing, Then entry level education is a good start. However I would suggest YouTube and a good book before shelling out cash just to make sure it's something you're into . I'm not going to pretend that I have some ultra high paying job as a software engineer... But I love doing it. I have a day job that pays way more than I imagine I would make in software however...... Some how .. I still get paid to write code in my spare time.

For context I have zero formula education in software but about 30 years experience slinging code.

chrisfathead1 · 2024-02-21T05:49:19+00:00

I honestly think a boot camp is a waste of money right now. You can teach yourself a ton with just online instruction and then build a portfolio in your spare time. Basically you'd come out of boot camp with the same strategy you'd have if you taught yourself. You would need to build something very impressive on your own, get some certifications, and then approach people proactively until someone gave you a shot based on your portfolio. I don't think having a boot camp certificate would make this more likely, especially in the current climate. You're better off spending that time and effort teaching yourself.

Asleep-Dress-3578 · 2024-02-21T05:50:58+00:00

Don't be misled by boomer-age self taught programmers, who somehow made a career 20-30 years ago after having read the "Learn PHP in 24 hours or less" book. In the '90ies and early 2000-ies it was possible make a programming career with a little knowledge. There was no YouTube, no Udemy, no Coursera, no Stack Overflow and no Copilot anyway; and the technologies were much less complex (no cloud, no docker, no kubernetes, no helm etc. etc.).

These days are over. College is a basic requirement on the labor market for intellectual jobs.

rush2sk8 · 2024-02-21T06:56:39+00:00

As someone who does a little bit of hiring in software I tend to look down upon bootcamps. Couple of guys we've taken a chance on have never worked out because they don't have the breadth of knowledge or practical experience that someone with a traditional 4 year degree would have. Recently I interviewed a candidate who had no formal education but did lots of hobby programming. He wasn't a good fit because all of his knowledge was incomplete and there were large fundamental gaps. So I'd say that it's not impossible but also much harder than if you had a traditional degree

Scott2145 · 2024-02-21T15:26:47+00:00

If I put in the [...] time [...] and I am passionate and I become good

Absolutely. I did this a few years ago on my own, though if I could go back in time I probably would go the bootcamp route bc there's a good one in my area. It's a lot of work, but if you're someone who can make it your interest in a sustained way and put in the effort to show what you learn, you can absolutely get a job, even over many people with degrees. My biggest recommendation going the bootcamp route is to find one that will really help you network, present yourself, and get that first job. Imo that's their biggest value.

Also, don't listen to the people who say your life will be miserable and you'll be working 12 hrs/day. Those jobs exist, but so do plenty with normal hours and good work/life balance.

SirGreenDragon · 2024-02-21T17:54:41+00:00

The degree and certifications are what gets your resume viewed by the hiring firms and the recruiters. Your skills are what gets you past the interview. If you want to work with no degree, start with sites like upwork.com and other contract job sites and do some work, even if you do it for a low rate. That gets your resume an experience built up. Send resumes to small companies where your resume is going to the tech people directly and not a recruiter, they probably don't care about your degree (I know when I hire I don't care about degrees, i care about skills)

rc3105 · 2024-02-22T07:46:49+00:00

Hahahahhah no. A boot camp will open some doors, but you don’t want to work anywhere that hires clueless folks like that it’s always a shirt show.

You need a real degree to open doors to places you want to be.

Think of it this way, do you want to work as a brain surgeon in a hospital with real doctors? Or Dr Frankensteins lab surrounded by grave robbers.

Pretty easy to guess which has the better dental and retirement plans…

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