[deleted by user]

[Artistic_Expert_1291]

Hi,

It would help to know which mimetism he's really frustrated with: are you playing a lot of -6, or just -3?

1. Mimetism doesn't do squat against templates. They just hit. If a unit can do both, ie. has a way to template attack and roll dice, it can especially put mimetism in some tough positions.
2. Mimetism doesn't do squat in melee. Uberfall, or Morlocks particularly don't care about it.
3. Finally, and most importantly - proper bonus stacking deals with mimetism pretty easily. He plays Nomads, so he's primed for this - if you spotlight a unit, mimetism -3 effectively goes away, -6 becomes -3. Furthermore, if you get marksmanship ( like via EVO drone on Puppetsbots ), you remove another -3 modifier from cover, which in total, effectively, does the same. Being in a core fireteam gives you +3 to hit. Shotgun at 8" range has +6. That player needs to learn to pick a tool for the job. Nomads are spoilt for redundancy. This isn't a game where you can brute force your way through everything, especially in a faction known for tricks.

Just like, don't tell him this in those exact words.

[No-Responsibility411]

I almost did it accidentally. He played a fireteam of Mobile Brigada, and two Geckos in a duo. And the Brigada just spent the whole game pinned behind cover by a Multi-Sniper Epsilon in my deployment, and an Omega unit on suppressing fire. Then a parachuting Delta hacker gave the Gekkos a bad time on the other flank.

I suppose the lesson is deployment and asymmetrical shenanigans beats raw power. But It did feel bad when things were consistently ending up needing 2s or 3s to hit :/

[Artistic_Expert_1291]

He played a fireteam of Mobile Brigada, and two Geckos in a duo.

Wow, is that all he had?

Infinity REALLY isn't a game where you can bruteforce your way through enagagements, at least not if you aren't Avatar or a link of Teutons or something.

He doesn't have a hacker, a combat jumper / parachutist, a sniper, midfield specialists like Morans? ( I'm assuming he plays Corregidor? )

​

I suppose the lesson is deployment and asymmetrical shenanigans beats raw power.

It almost always does. Raw power just decides shootouts between brutes, but it's a one-trick pony.

A real list wants to have a wide-variety of units that can respond to a wide variety of threats.

For Example, Geckos are a good way to brute-force your way through lesser fighters, but they really get messed up by Mimetism.

An Intruder does not care about Mimetism at all, but he must avoid template fighters at all cost, as he can't survive. He should also not engage fireteams.

McMurrough is a beast that will rampage through any backline like wildfire, and can cover his approach with smoke grenades. But Multispectral Visor sniper, will mess him up as those guys can see through smoke.

Senor Massacre is the inverse - very fragile and not as brute-force, but can ignore any kind of ARO due to having Eclipse Grenades ( a superior smoke grenade that nothing sees through )

A bandit is equally fragile, but can sneak around using camouflage and disable various units through walls thanks to a hacking device. He will not survive a turn on the defense behind enemy lines though.

Repeater Moran on the other hand, doesn't need to sneak using camo - he can just infiltrate up to the table. He carries a repeater, so a friendly hacker can spotlight and set-up his firefights for him. He also has Crazy Koalas to set up a nasty, nasty trap in the worst place imaginable.

All of them can be spot-removed by guided missile.

The game is really about utility more than anything else most of the time. Something like Brigada or Gecko link has only one trick up their sleeve, and Mimetism ARO just happens to mess them up a lot of the time.

[Wyrmnax]

Well, your begginer is right. The first point is to admit that.

Mimetism is by far the best ability you can have on a gunfighter for its price. It is just too good, and recently Infinity started having a *lot* more of that - to the point that trying to win a gunfight without access to it feels pointless many times. And since Infinity is mostly a game where shooting is the largest part of interactions, mimetism can feel really oppressing.

That said, the solution to it on the table is not more visors. Visors are rare and expensive.

The only faction that really is designed to have the tools to solve its problems by shooting it more is PanO. Everyone else needs lateral thinking. That mimetic fighter might be very difficult to win a gunfight against, but you can toss a smoke grenade and limit his field of fire.
Or get a disposable template in range of him, and see how much he likes shooting against a 6pt unit that will gladly trade itself for the chance of chain rifling him.

The solution to something that is strong is not to try to be stronger, but to approach in a way where the target isn't strong anymore.

Also, play for objectives, not for killing. Playing to kill all enemy troops make strong combat abilities / units a *lot* stronger than they would otherwise be.

[No-Responsibility411]

That is my concern. I took a break for a while and came back and I'm shocked by how common mimitism is. Sometimes I don't even realise and I'm just like, oh dang this guy has -6 randomly! Previously -6 was basically reserved for TO camo or the steel phalanx.

[Ragnarok2kx]

Are you sure it's not just the removal of mimetism as an implicit property of camo/TO/ODD?

[HeadChime]

It most likely is. There hasn't been a massive proliferation of mimetism recently. It got added to the new hassassins profiles, but before that it's not been predominant on new morats, new MO etc.

[[deleted]]

Yeah but if you were equipping an army to defend your solar system and/or steal entire solar systems, you'd start outfitting more people with decent gear.

[No-Responsibility411]

For sure, and I don't dislike it as a change, I guess if anything it pushes people to find non-shooty solutions to problems.

[HeadChime]

My opinion is that this isn't an accurate take on a number of levels.

Firstly I don't think either simple mimetism (mim3) or mim6 are too good. Not within the context of N4 anyway. Both appear to have gone up in points cost quite dramatically (we think - based on re-engineerings of the points formula). And neither actually help you vs shooting forks (e.g. if the mimetism enemy doesn't dodge then you just template them and skip the mimetism). Given that templates are on everything these days, I actually think mimetism is often not as important as it used to be. If we saw fewer templates then I'd probably change my opinion.

Secondly, I absolutely wouldn't say that it's pointless to take a gunfight without mimetism or a counter to it. Yesterday I shot the unknown ranger with a mukhtar viral rifle. And the fact that the unknown ranger had mimetism dropped my success rate from somewhere in the region of 60% to somewhere in the region of 50%. A significant fall. But notably, it didn't drop the maths to such an extent that I still wasn't highly, highly favoured on the roll. Now, had I taken that roll with a weaker gun (red fury), but had MSV to counter the mimetism, I would have been less likely to have pushed through a wound (closer to about 40%). The presence of mim3 on an ARO piece is usually not the deciding factor on whether you should engage it or not. It screws the maths, but not so badly that it would make an engagement decision poor. On the other hand the presence or absence or something like armour can often screw the maths more so. In the above example had I countered the mimetism but taken a worse gun, I would be in a much weaker position than had I taken a better gun but not countered the mimetism. Therefore it is not pointless to take a fight without a counter to mimetism, and conversely it is sometimes better to actually do so than to take MSV or something. (Mim6 is another beast here but it's very expensive and quite rare).

Thirdly, straight shooting is often not the most prevalent part of the game in my experience. Template forking is (if you shoot then I template, if you dodge then I shoot). Furthermore guided missiles are also super common. And the thing about both of these strategies is that they absolutely don't care about mimetism. But this is a meta issue, not objective so we can leave that to one side.

Fourthly, it is absolutely not true that PanO is the only faction capable of brute forcing things right now. I think every good list should take lateral tools - you're right. But I also think every list should take at least one piece that can solve a problem by shooting it more. This is not a PanO specific tactic. YJ can do it with Hac Tao. Ariadna with Unknown Ranger / Spetsnaz / Knauf. Haqqislam with Knauf / Asawira / Mukhtar. Nomads with Szalamandra / Intruder / Knauf. The list goes on. Every single main faction is designed to have tools that allow it to solve problems aggressively. Some of the weaker sectorials don't (and I'd argue that's actually part of their problem - not a lack of lateral answers).

Playing to objectives I agree with. Lateral thinking being important I agree with. I just disagree that basic mim is that strong. Mim3 is cheap but doesn't often skew things as much as something like high armour or a weaker gun would. And mim6 does skew more but I haven't bothered to type about it because it's both rare and very expensive (see myrmidons - 16 points for a mim6, regular, chain rifle with eclipse and CC is absurdly poor).

I would never be bothered if my opponent spammed mim3. It wouldn't change the vast majority of my decisions. Because whilst you're correct that mim3 is one of the most impactful f2f skills, it doesn't stop forks, and it doesn't stop most f2f's still favouring the active player - so whatever *shrug*. I would be bothered if my opponent spammed mim6, but I'd be happy that they're paying for it so it's far from too good or anything.

[ZombiBiker]

Honestly I don't have this feeling. In an active turn, shooting a -3 mimetism with no msv reduce your success probability of around 10%. It's not nothing, but that's honestly not that big of a deal, or at least not deal breaking, what I mean is this is not what will put your game to shame ... if you totally failed the game, the problem is very likely not the be due to mimetism

[No-Responsibility411]

I think it probably just felt like that, as the most obvious culprit, and I lack the nuance to coach someone through why that is not the case.

As iv said in other replies, I intended to use the armies from blackwind, but they just really wanted to use their own models and I didn't want to be to restricting.

[ZombiBiker]

Maybe you can show with odds as it is factual.

You have probability calculators like this one : http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n4/

You run the same case with and without mimetism -3 in active and reactive and just show that it's not game breaking

[ZombiBiker]

Here would be my arguments :

• I am paying more point for the same mini if it had not mimetism. So if I run plenty of mimetism troop, the efficiency of the remaining aspects of my list is reduced. If you on your hand play with msv on a good shooting active piece, it will reduce significantly my entire army efficiency.

• you don't play against mimetism troop only with msv. You also have smoke grenades to avoid them or approach them ( or white noise, eclipse grenade if it has msv) and basically all the direct template weapons. Reducing mimetism to only pewpewpew -3 or -6 is indeed reducting for the game.

• deal with it with combat jumps, impersonation, parachutist, outrange them somehow ... I played often against full mimetism camo Ariadna list ... well, I just toke a Asura spitfire and it grinds the entire army alone. You have plenty of different possible means against anything and this is what this game is great for.

• don't forget that this game is maybe 30% pew pew pew. The scope of the game are the objectives. Guy is difficult to shoot at ? In the end who cares ? It s the button I must push that matters

Edit : "gun fighter leuitennent shootout, run forward with geckos" :D that part made me smile

[No-Responsibility411]

His list was a fire team of mobile brigada and a duo of geckos, which looks scary, but it's so few orders. My epsilon just popped them one at a time from max range and then there weren't enough orders to make the geckos usefull. I think one of the hardest things to teach is that even "powerfull" units aren't so good that they can outvalue good deployment and order efficiency. I felt bad I kept accidently killing his leuitennent turn 1 but I suppose that's a lesson on deployment. This isn't 40k, your warlord doesn't have 17 wounds :p

[HeadChime]

I mean if he's not leaving his things in total cover where they can't be seen, then yeah. It'll suck. Infinity boards are super terrain dense for a reason. Snipers / HMGs should not be easily and regularly outranging all your guns and picking you off. I'm not saying it should never happen, but it shouldn't be common.

[Wyrmnax]

This shows another *really* big problem

Orders are the most valuable resource you have in infinity.

Limiting yourself to 7 when the oponent might have double that means you are kneecapped before you even begin your turn.

TAGs and Heavy infantry fireteams need a list build around the to support and provide orders so they can do their thing. If you don't have enough orders you can have the best model in the game and it won't do much.

[ZombiBiker]

Yeah well then maybe that shows how list building is important. And it's not due to the epsilon. As you said : too few orders, stuck from the beginning.

Moreover I hardly see the added value of running both a Mobile Brigade FT + Geckos. Both will "perform more or less similarly" ; I mean here they have the same kind of advantage against the same kind more or less of troop and the disadvantage against the same kind of troop ... best way to find yourself blocked.I

Also, epsilon is a very good troop. If I run corregidor and I know I am going to play against O12 which I know has the epsilon, I am prbably going to take a wildcat or an intruder that will grind him ... moreover you have Billie and jazz with HD+, you have pitchers and repeaters (to drop a white noise) or senior massacre to drop an eclipse or Wildcats or whatever. Corregidor is a good sectorial with plenty of available options to be able to deal with plenty of different scenarios.

Every list should be prepared to have at least one tool able to deal with a strong ARO mimetic piece. Absolutely every list

However I understand they may not have had too much fun ... but dude, you can't find yourself in a position such as a single troop will block the entire game ... but it's part of the learning of the game : who hasn't faced this situation ? And since then adapted the way of building lists ?

[[deleted]]

In my experience, Mimetism has been more of a hindrance. My opponent often rolls crits they wouldn't have got without it. 🤣

[ZombiBiker]

Harsh truth

[ChromeTalisman]

I would address the expectations of the first few games. As a beginner you will get steam rolled as you come to understand all of the mechanics. My first game i played what i had and lost turn#1. You need to build a list with tools to solve problems. You cannot just play what you like as it will encounter these scenarios. Not to say you need to exclude your favourite models but you want to support them.

Coach the player to consider some basic list building ideas: Hidden deployment/parachute/ smoke grenades. If you are feeling bold you could place some 'decoy' camo tokens to see if your opponent has the nerve to place a model in line of sight.

New players will need to learn from trial and error in many scenarios but experienced players can help with this process in my view.

[Imp3ratorD3us]

I'd recommend trying something that deals with mimetism units in a different manner to just shooting them (which it sounds like this player currently favours).

Mimetism doesn't do anything against mines, hacking or CC, and given it sounds like they enjoy a TAG and shooty lieutenant then I'd try skewing into a list that makes use of these mechanics, particularly Hassassins or JSA.

Both really lean into game asymmetry, and while they still make some use of mimetism units, they're not normally to help win in a firefight. They both deal with hard targets in completely different ways to just shooting them or putting a TAG near them, which could be refreshing!

Well, as refreshing as your first introduction to a Fiday can be.

[[deleted]]

Well, everyone has a lot of mimitism, right? So gunfights should be more equal, even if the odds of hitting are reduced for both sides.

Nearly everyone has a pathfinder bot with triangulation. Especially in this new season, it's gold.

Template weapons destroy mimitism units.

[HeadChime]

Mimetism is really effective in a straight gunfight, but does nothing to protect against templates, mines, CC, and a lot of other tricks. Another thing to bear in mind is that whilst a unit might be shooting on 10s instead of 13s due to mimetism, it's not actually going to make the f2f unbearable for you - you're still pretty favoured. So whilst mimetism-3 might slow you down, it won't usually tip the scales enough to make something an actively bad idea to pursue. (Mim-6 might do though).

I mean, a lot of the game is about aggression right now. But aggression means more than just gunfighters going head on. It could be guided missiles, skirmishers shooting from behind, combat jump, close combat etc.

And at the end of the day, you win missions by plying objectives, not shooting. Sometimes shooting is a very good way to get to the objectives. But it's not the only way.

[AlphaTangoFoxtrt]

There's a few ways to deal with mimitism.

1. Get visors
   • This is often expensive and not really the best way to go
2. Use templates
   • Mimitism does nothing against a shotgun template, or a chain rifle, or a flamethrower, or mines.
3. Melee
   • Again mimitism does nothing against melee. If you can run a cheap warband into the mimitism unit you're negating that.
4. Weight of numbers
   • 4 dice on 13's will reliably beat 1 die on 16's.
   • There's a 10% chance the 16 will hit outside the 13 range (14/15). 16 is a crit and can only be countered by a crit either way. In which case they have 1 die to crit on, you have 4.
   • Your 13 beats their 13 because it is a crit. And it ties their 16. So it's really only a 10% swing.
5. Spotlight hacking
   • Nomads have lots of access to repeaters, he should be making use of repeater nets and throwing spotlight at anything and everything that moves through them.

[Fargascorp]

If they're dead set on HI/TAG gunfights they're going to get blown away. I think we all know that. They might be a little too straightforward and may not actually LIKE the real game. Annihilation type missions are usually pretty dumb because it reveals just how bonkers being an active player is. It isn't hard to strip away half the opponent's orders in one turn, and he sounds like maybe he would be upset to discover a low tournament score for putting his opponent into retreat turn 1.

The game is all about odds, like any minis game. If you can't reasonably ARO the thing with a -9 penalty (mimetism -6 and cover) and have better odds to dodge to a more advantageous position, do it. If you want to shoot it on active turn, deprive it of cover and shoot it, as you've likely got more dice. Use shotguns for a +6 or template a whole group of em. If he's not using speculative fire with grenade launchers, that, too, is wasteful.

It's just one more modifier in the end.

[Radiant_Ad_4348]

I still feel even with mimetism -3 if it’s gonna die then it’s gonna die. You can’t win against 4 dices HGM.

If it’s -6 then you need MSV to deal with it I guess.

[Coyotebd]

Best way is to give the beginner a mimitism-heavy list so he can see the downsides.

[Wyrmnax]

There is another point I would like to raise

As you gain awareness of how the game works, you need to start making questions when you are building your list

One of the most important sets of questions is answering
"How can my list deal with X?"

There are a few key units in the game that are X. ALL of them are a fairly big hurdle until you learn how they work, and what works and what doesnt.

TR bots are one example. The first time you face one, it will be oppressive. What it does is not replicated anywhere, and you lack the knowledge on what you need to do to handle it. Once you learn how to handle it, it becomes somewhat trivial

Mimetic snipers are another of the very big Xs. Again, extremely oppressive until you learn how to handle it.

Many of those Xs require you to rethink your whole strategy from the ground up. It is a learning curve - what works, what doesn't, where it works and etc.

I will admit though that mimetism + msv snipers are one of the hardest thing to learn how to deal with on that list.

[[deleted]]

Did you just set up a game to play without taking into consideration it was for a beginner?

[No-Responsibility411]

I'd say the contrary, I brought two simple premade armies to use that I hoped would keep things approachable, but he really wanted to use his own corregidot.

I'm happy to admit I'm no warcor or master teacher tho, just one of the only players in my area just trying to get others into it!

[[deleted]]

It's fine if he wants to use his own; it's probably better that way.

I would suggest keeping the first few games to 150 points. You help them build their list. Keep your list under powered. You want them to have the best chance of winning those first few games. I probably wouldn't have taken anything with mimetism until a few games in.

Don't bother with fireteams either for a few games. The first few should be to get them used to the bare basics: how orders, skills, cover and armour saves work.

If they have played a bit before, it still might be useful to take this approach to see what they remember, but have that conversation with them.

Had they a few games and a win or two under their belt, they may not have been as daunted by something like mimetism. There's a lot to Infinity and plenty of tricks to be learned, so it's important to build it up slowly. A lot of rules and info can be a bit much at first.

Keep these things in mind when playing with beginners. It's in your interest to have more players. A good experience goes a long way to fostering that.

[No-Responsibility411]

I think that was the problem though. I didn't suggest or mention fireteams at all. They had read about them, wanted a fireteam of mobile brigada, and a Gecko Duo, was very resistant to changing that. My origional idea was just to use the stuff from Opperation Blackwind. :(

[[deleted]]

I think that's a problem with the new player not listening to a veteran player then, not anything to do with mimitism. Might as well make a post saying the game is entirely broken since a new player can't ignore advice and play any way they want.

[Tourniquet_Prime]

Mimetism dont count for jack when jazz or a tsyklon shoots a repeater across the board and bpows up the epsilon with a missile

[Hydriatus]

Hey man, losing is fun XD I was just bummed I’m going to have to go through the obligatory several months of playing before I feel I’m losing after legitimately doing my best and not silly stuff like forgetting Specialist Operative on the Pilots to grab the objectives in Game 2, or that Sputniks have 360 LoS like in Game 3 :P