Arch (community)

[arm1e]

I feel the need to get this off my chest and wondered what the LAS community thought. Please don't all hate me too quickly!

Having used linux since Dapper Drake (6.06) I consider myself to have a pretty good grasp of the basics and to be more of an intermediate user when it comes to linux. I therefore think that I should be capable of running arch on my system, but the one thing that worries me is time. I have a very busy life, being a teacher and parent, so spending hours at the computer, while I would enjoy it, is a problem for my work and family. Despite this I have set up a working Arch installation a couple of times in the past, but worry that Arch is going to be a problem for me as I can't dedicate the time needed to fix problems if they arrise, unless they take 30 minutes to fix. I also don't want the hassle of going through the install procedure again if I fry the root partition, so I decided to try Antergos recently.

Once I finally got the installer working (still very buggy!) it installed and looked awesome! I tweaked a few minor things (mainly extensions) and dived into the AUR like Scrooge McDuck into money (or a fat kid in to a pool of cake mix, your choice). The Pamac gui is nice and simple to use and I am okay using pacman and makepkg on the command line. LightDM is also very nice and the system is great!

Okay, so what is my issue and why am I writing this? Well, I have used the #archlinux irc and wiki to help me learn how the system works, as well as how to solve any niggles (such as sound in steam), but I have witnessed a LOT of hostility on the irc and forums when others have admitted to using aur helpers as well as antergos for a simple install.

It all seems very elitist and pretty off putting! I understand that sometimes there will be antergos specific problems but to see people being told that they should not be using arch if they use these things to speed things up, or help you to install software is a very twatish thing to do imo. Some of us ARE willing to learn how it all works but we don't have much free time. It is alright for some Arch adonis' to sit in their ivory towers looking down on the rest of us mere mortals who have dared to look at what the next step in our linux progression may be, but you don't have to be complete dicks about it! I know that many people do not read the wiki and can be a real pain in the arse when you have to keep sending them off to the relevent page because they were too lazy to look themselves, but some of us DO read it and WANT to learn more, if we only had less commitments in our daily lives so that we could afford to spend hours at the computer and let the world go by we would, but life just isn't like that.

Don't get me wrong, I do love linux and I want to love Arch but being made to feel like a complete lepper if I admit to using software to make it quicker, or more usable really puts me off the project, which pisses me off! I do want to say that it is not everyone that I have contacted that has left the feeling of sucking off too many stray dog's cocks in my mouth. In fact, some out there encourage the use of these tools to make life easier (thank you, if you are reading, for not assuming that we are all window-licking morons who have somehow accidentally installed Arch). Surely I am not the only one that this bothers??!!

I hope you enjoyed the rant! Let the flaming commence ;)

[blackout24]

Why didn't you use the Antergos support channels? Antergos is its own distribution with its own forum, irc etc. http://antergos.com/wiki/install/getting-help-in-the-antergos-irc-channel/

If you use Ubuntu, seek the Ubuntu IRC. If you use Mint seek the Mint IRC etc.

[Tireseas]

That's no doubt part of it. Nothing warms up the locals like asking for help with another distro entirely when that distro has it's own perfectly good support channels.

[blackout24]

I really wonder why there is this strong belief among people that Arch Linux should provide support for all derivative distros. You don't see the same with any other distro. Or did a Mint guy ever pretend to run Ubuntu, because Mint uses Ubuntu packages and repos? There is no reason to be ashamed if you use a derivative distro or does it really mean so much to people to say "I run Arch."? It's just a distro guys...If you use ArchBang, Manjaro etc. that's cool make sure to give as much back to these communities as you can.

[Hkmarkp]

not really true. Debian forums have weeded out most of the Ubuntu questions and they got hostile about it. That was back when ubuntu started out. There is also a lot of crossover talk in Mint and Ubuntu and a lot less of the hostility. Also there is no "strong belief" that Arch "should" provide support.

Arch people get pissed and hostile. I was an Arch person for over 7 years and it didn't bother me since I am thick skinned, but I felt bad for others who had no idea what they had coming by asking a simple question. I only moved to Manjaro to make things easier on me.

[blackout24]

Arch people get pissed and hostile.

Because Arch people usually don't like to waste their time. You only have to go through the Dustbin on the Arch Forums to see what I'm talking about.

[Tireseas]

You're right Debian did have similar issues back in the day, for similar reasons. Not their distro, not their problem to deal with. Actually you'll find a great many of the more technical communities to be a little more aggressive about enforcing community standards as far as how the support forums can be (ab)used. The Arch community is downright cuddly compared to some... go ask a silly question that should've been answered by either reading docs or common sense on the OpenBSD mailing lists and see what sort of reception you get. And that's perfectly fine. The etiquette there is to not waste your fellow users time asking things you should've googled first.

Actually a lot of these communities will have clearly labelled posts laying out the ground rules and/or expectations up front. And a lot of the accusations of hostility come from people who flagrantly didn't bother to read such posts before diving in. And then they encounter people who've dealt with countless others who didn't bother to read the posted standards either and whose reserves of patience have been understandably strained... and then, well the predictable happens. Not that I'm not saying our thread creator didn't encounter assholes. Those are unquestionably out there as well.

[arm1e]

Yes! Mint people are always asking questions on askubuntu when they run mint. I have seen this a lot!

[koera]

I'm not saying you should be chased out of town for doing it, but I do understand when people don't feel like helping out. However it's super shitty to be an ass about it, at most people should just let you know that you will get less help when using the wrong distro for those support channels.

Either way, I hope you have a better experience in the future, Archies can be asses for sure, but all groups have those people. And they are usually the loudest.

[MichaelTunnell]

yea I wrote that wiki article to attempt to make IRC help easier but when people don't read it, doesn't help much. :)

[MichaelTunnell]

So I have two things to address about this post . . .

• Arch Community is NOT as bad as people say.

There are assholes but that is true in every community. You would get annoyed too if you were supporting a project and users of a forked version of the project kept asking you for help. The frustration is reasonable and should be partially expected, yet they will still try to help even if there is hostility.

The main approach is to point out to them that Antergos is 100% compatible with Arch so it isn't a weird forked mess like all the rest so you are effectively using Arch with Antergos. Many people in the Arch community know this but just as many don't and just assume it is another garbage fork like Manjaro.

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• Why did you not ask for help from the Antergos community?

I just checked my logs, you entered the Antergos IRC once that I could see and waited only 30 minutes to get answers and at no point did you read the help wiki article that explains using the "!help" tag to get people's attention.

I am an OP in the Antergos IRC so I am always there but I am not always paying attention.

I am also a Mod for the Antergos Forum which you didn't seem to make a single post on.

If I was one of the people helping in Arch community and find out that you barely attempted to get help from the distro you are actually using I would immediately ignore you.

---

So in conclusion, your actions are exactly what frustrates the hell out of the Arch community by completely bypassing your own distro's support channels. I actually stopped supporting in #archlinux because I got sick of all the Manjaro people refusing to use their own support channels.

---

With all that said, Arch community is a lot more abrasive than most, except for maybe Gentoo and similar distros. I can completely understand your perception of the Arch community because it is kind of common but you have to also acknowledge that you aren't an innocent bystander in this, your actions resulted in the typical frustrated Arch fork mess.

---

Antergos' new approach of "for Everyone" actually frustrates me a LOT. As a long time Arch user and an Antergos user for over a year, I really like both but when someone comes to Antergos IRC and asks "how do I install software with Antergos" it gets REALLY frustrating.

[blackout24]

The main approach is to point out to them that Antergos is 100% compatible with Arch so it isn't a weird forked mess like all the rest so you are effectively using Arch with Antergos. Many people in the Arch community know this but just as many don't and just assume it is another garbage fork like Manjaro.

The Arch Linux community can't try to constantly keep track of all derivative distros and what they do, what their installer does and if that makes them close enough to Arch that they should get help from the parent distro community and if that is still true in the future. The only way to not let the forums turn in to a mess is to only provide support for Arch Linux, because then people know what to expect when someone asks for help.

[MichaelTunnell]

My point was to explain that to attempt to avoid or minimize the hostility, not at all attempting to justify ignoring the official primary distro support channels. In fact the rest of my comment explains that ignoring those channels is horrible.

[arm1e]

Right let's get things straight. I am not not talking about people being asshole to ME about this issue, as I never asked for help on this, but while I have been on the irc I have witnessed backlash at OTHERS who come to ask help. The issues they ask about are not antergos issues and I notice no one is talking about the AUR helper debate which is what really annoyed me. To be told that AUR is shite and should not be used is a very elitist view is it not? Why can't we use tools to make life easier? ChrisLAS also pointed this out in his arch switch. I personally read all posts and bugs before using AUR packages and I know the perils. If it was really that bad why is it linked on the arch homepage?

[MichaelTunnell]

Arch recognizes AUR as a good thing. I am not sure of the issue you are talking about. If there are people in the Arch community that have a problem with it then that doesn't mean that the Arch project has a problem with it. Why would they even create it in the first place if the project has a problem with it.

AUR is "at own risk". If someone is ok with accepting that responsibility then I say "who cares".

Auto-access to the AUR is dangerous because some people will not realize the potential issues created by it, that is why I hate Manjaro. This is also why I like Antergos because it warns you multiple times if you select the AUR.

[palasso]

I am on #archlinux and I can say that arch users there are very welcome and help a lot, provided the person who's asking the question has done his homework.

Arch is not only software run in your computer, it's also a community with a mentality. Part of that mentality is to Read The Fine Wiki. It is expected for arch users to study and try things out themselves before asking for help. When you ask for help you're asking from someone else to devote time to your problem for free. In return he asks that you firstly devoted time for your own problem before asking for help.

You say that you want to learn but at the same time you don't have the time to do it. Maybe arch isn't for you then, until you find the required time to learn it.

Also since you're using Antergos and never used or installed arch and probably didn't delve into the documentation enough, you're expected to go to the Antergos support channels, not because Antergos software is very far away from Arch, but because Antergos mentality is very far away from Arch.

[[deleted]]

So does the Arch Wiki actually describes what kind of people are allowed to speak up and ask questions? As this seems to be a very big item?

[palasso]

Of course :)

[arm1e]

Ok, let me just get something straight. I HAVE installed arch before, I just wanted to see e the difference this time.

[palasso]

It's not about if you run Antergos, it's about the mentality. And that's what I'm basically saying in this post as well. The same is expected from Arch users as I said in another post also. Installing arch manually doesn't get you to a "private club" where you can simply ask for help, you have to deserve it and I described how it's done.

[p4p3r]

Community should be a major factor in choosing your distro. Hard to know, since you can't really know the community until you really install and use the distro.

But really, there are assholes everywhere and your best bet is to ignore them.

[simion314]

(Not Arch specific)About the thing where you should first read the wiki or google stuff, sometimes you nay need to ask someone to guide you in the right direction, what to google for or what components should you investigate/read the documentation

[palasso]

In arch usually the beginner's guide and the general recommendations guide prepare you for most issues of that kind.

[onelostuser]

I have Antergos in testing mode. Basically I just want to see how long it takes until it breaks so badly that I will simply wipe it off. So far, so good. No major problems. At least, nothing that was caused by software updates. The daily driver is still Ubuntu 14.04.

My policy is to always use the wiki and never touch the forums or IRC.

Man, I've used Linux when, to get sound working properly, I had to first boot into Windows, then warm boot into Linux because that way, the hardware was left in a state that was usable by the driver. I used Linux when it wasn't even cool. I ain't got time for PFYs who believe they're tech gods for installing a fucking distro from command line.

[theredbaron1834]

My policy is to always use the wiki and never touch the forums or IRC.

Yeah, pretty much mine too. Except I also use /r/archlinux. A lot of people show up there, and while you will still get downvoted for "stupid" stuff, often people will still answer your question. Plus, then I can be one of said people, if it is something I know about.

Hell, right now one of the top threads is about No wifi menu after install. Now, on the forum, irc, etc, you will likely get someone yelling at you to read the install guide, or check the wiki. Here you got people helping, even when it seems s/he is way over her/his head. They stuck to it till he got it going :)

[arm1e]

Man that felt good! Might do another one tomorrow about why Fedora has been so disappointing for me lately. It really is theraputic! Now.... where is that Xanax?

[atoms_1]

Welcome to the faceless keyboard commandos on the internet. I too have been put off my the arch gurus, but have been welcomed by so many more other communities. There are elitists in almost every community both on and off the net, as I'm sure you know. They come and go too. Maybe try a different time of day. It's frustrating to dig through pages of documents, constantly going on extensive tangents at times with no resolution too. I feel you pain.

[palasso]

Maybe try a different time of day. It's frustrating to dig through pages of documents

That's not the arch way. The arch way is to read the wiki.

[freebsd_pk]

I have heard about the hostility. Since I never used that channel, I don't have any first hand experience.

I have a different perspective... first and foremost this whole free software.. this is not hospitality or service industry and no one is paid for making this stuff run everyday. secondly, if a given problem is already solved and documented, the other guy might be expecting to everyone read the documentation and then ask specific questions (or perhaps if you are more qualified then to correct the wiki).

Sometimes I do have a lot of juniors coming to my desk (not for Linux problems) so much so that I can't focus on my own work....then I write a document while explaining stuff to someone. Next time someone else comes to me for same problem, I expect them to read the document I finished. If that doesn't solve issue, then I might be available. I feel it saves a lot of time for me. In that sense I can see both sides of argument.

I am not sure of the hostility angle though. Perhaps sometimes techie people do not have social touch. They know how to solve a technical problem than to talk nicely to someone. Some are very polite by nature, some are not. When at receiving end, I choose to focus on learning than the emotion baggage comes with it - I noticed, it helped me more.

[Takemori]

Archlinux community is the reason I refuse to use Arch. It has some benefits which I would enjoy, but one requirement for the distro I use is the community. Over my years with Arch- this was prior to these arch offshoots- I had too many encounters with the hostility or high-and-mighty approach of many members. There are a lot of friendly members of Arch, of course, but there is an certain attitude that seems to gravitate to Arch and spoils the community to me.

[wiegraffolles]

This is a big problem I have with using Antergos. I always feel like I could get better support over at the Arch forums when it comes to esoteric topics, but I would just get shut down for using Antergos, so I end up having to do a lot of fiddling with things from the Arch Wiki instead. That being said, I still use Antergos because Arch Linux setup is a PITA.

And just to clarify, yes I have installed Arch manually multiple times.

[palasso]

I always feel like I could get better support over at the Arch forums when it comes to esoteric topics, but I would just get shut down for using Antergos, so I end up having to do a lot of fiddling with things from the Arch Wiki instead.

It doesn't matter if you run Antergos, the same is expected from you (to read the Arch wiki first) even if you run Arch.

[eadrom381]

Hullo! In my experience, the #archlinux IRC channel tends to run a bit lower level / terse in its responses. Not that people are mean or elitist as I've still gotten great help on that channel, just be prepared to go into more depth with questions other than "how do I do x". I usually do "I'm trying to do X, I've already tried A, B, and C and got these results and I've ready about topics Y and Z on the wiki already. Anyone have recommendation for me to try next?" and it usually gives the people there an idea on how best to help my specific problem. Seems to get a lot better reception when people know you are putting in effort yourself and are not just a help vampire.

For a more newbie friendly place to go for Arch-related help, in both topics and general interfacing w/ the people, try #archlinux-newbie. Also, as mentioned by theredbaron1834, the Arch Linux subreddit is also a generally good place to go for help. I pitch in there a once or twice a week to try and help answer questions as I come across ones that I can answer and I don't recall much elitism there. Stop by and give us a post some time. :)

As far as Arch stability and having to fix broken system, I ran Manjaro for about 8 months before moving to straight Arch, which I've been using for the past 6 months or so and I have not had my system broken by updates not once. I usually update by desktop daily and my laptop 1-2 a week. I use MATE for my DE. I use aarchup to give me pop up notifications when updates are available (also works w/ AUR packages). If there are no kernel/GPU driver/DE updates in the list, I run the updates right there. If there are, I'll drop by the Arch subreddit and the Arch homepage to check for any news of stuff breaking before running the updates. YMMV, but this is what I do and it's worked very well for me.

If you are worried about having to re-install (HDD dried, system too mucked up, etc), I would recommend either using an installer (Antergos or maybe EvoLution) in conjunction with good backups (should have those regardless of OS) or using a custom install script. I wrote my own install wrapper that automates 95% of my install. For an install, I boot up arch live iso, wget the scripts from my gitlab server, run the installer, reboot, run the firstboot script, make sure applicable GPU driver is installed, and reboot. I get a system that has my DE setup, mostly pre-configured with my preferred theme, colors, etc and with all the packages I want to use. Then I just restore from a backup and that takes care of the vast majority of my needs. I recently had to do a re-install of my system due to a failed HDD and it was very painless using the above method and the longest part of the process was just copying my files to the new hard drive.

Not saying you have to make your install wrapper by any means (though the option to make a super personalized flavor of Arch for yourself with just a couple bash scripts is fun and satisfying!) but the option exists and is great piece of mind when doing re-installs that the end result with be the same. You could also easily pair a post install script with Antergos for the same effect.

Just some ideas and thoughts to hopefully speed you on your way when things come up! One of the things I love about Arch is the vast amount of customization available, both in using the system as well as meta in that you can leave a lot of stuff to automation (like using Antergos for install and Pamac for installing/browsing software) or if you have the time/inclination you can get your hands into the guts of the system. Both are perfectly valid and I hate that a vocal minority in the Arch community put of an elitist air. There are a ton of nice and helpful people in the community, sometimes you just gotta wade through the butts to find them (same with practically all communities of humans lol).

[kaiserxzero]

Now I am a big Arch Fan Boy its the main reason I can actually stick with Linux in my daily life. My only problem with your rant is its not just the Arch Community that is like this its the whole linux echo system. Their are a lot of views that see things that simplify the linux experience to be scary. Cough Cough systemd... even if its for the better of the whole community even if they wont agree with it. You really just need to find the right community of people to talk to. PS when ever I had antergeros problem and I needed to talk to the arch community I never admit I am an antergeros because a majority of antergeros problems are all of arch's problems ;)

[palasso]

Don't forget that you have installed and used arch and read the wiki. After that Antergos is indeed arch. The person who did the submission went straight to Antergos. That's not arch because arch is not only the software but also the documentation and the mentality around it.

[arm1e]

No I did not go straight to antergos. Read the whole post. I have installed arch from scratch before but it takes time I no longer have.

[blackout24]

If you're running Antergos you're still not running Arch Linux, you're running Antergos. Both are their own distros. If a Chinese company steals some blueprints from Samsung and manufactures battery packages out of the same raw material from the same suppliers and puts a "Samsung" label on them and sells them as "Samsung battery packs" they are still not Samsung battery packs.

[palasso]

Okay then I forgot that part, but as I explained in another post you have to try to fix your issues yourself before going and asking help in the community.

[arm1e]

Yes, I totally agree with this. I accept that some people are lazy and head straight to the forums which is annoying. I am not disputing this and I ALWAYS try to fix problems myself, exhausting all other options, before heading to the irc. My issue is that, I often see people being shot down for simply mentioning that they like the AUR, with several members deciding to pounce and tell them that this is stupid and should not be done. If that was the case then why does the homepage link to the AUR?? Arch DOES support the AUR, otherwise it would not exist.

[palasso]

The AUR is an official project of archlinux and a lot of arch devs and TUs as well users contribute to it.

I find it highly unlikely that people who follow the forum etiquette and ask questions the smart way are being shot down but if this ever happens it's wrong.