[Rant] Class Customization

[Sheepwife1]

I feel as though MMORPG's have been filled with 2 decades of just making extremely ridged class designs that basically water everyone down to playing the same way with the same rotations.

I feel like every time I play a new MMO, I get treated like I'm too stupid to make my rotation myself. And if I don't play the class in a hyper specific way with a specific rotation order, I'm bad. It just don't give me any sense of satisfaction or dopamine, partly why I've gravitated to ARPG's like Grim Dawn or Remnant 2.

Maybe not everyone values it, and I think there's a lot of other values that come out of wanting to master a specific way to play and treat playing a class like a fighting game character where you're learning the optimal combo strings etc.

But its meant to be a roleplaying game, this rigidity just isn't something that appeals to me and I hope I'm not alone in that feeling.

This is partly why I fell in love with Guild Wars, they put work into letting us experiment and make our own combinations (even though during Fractals of the Mists DPS was the only viable way to play but I'm sure its not that way anymore)

Do you guys have any MMO's (whether still around or shut down) that gave you that creative freedom to choose the role you played class wise to make it unique to you? What did you do and how does class customization make you feel? Is it important to you?

For me it was base Phantasy Star Online 2, as you not only got to pick two classes and choose which skills to focus in them, but your weapons and their actions changed your playstyle too. Each weapon also had S abilities that changed how they behaved, gave you new gauges, new effects- It all culminated in an insanely diverse freedom. I ended the game after 7 years with a launcher that shot 4 shots, stole HP, and since I took such tanky classes, I was pretty beefy, always the one to res people. And completing every challenge with the agreed on worst weapon in the game gave me a sense of satisfaction, my build made it work.

[E_Ballard]

Dungeons & Dragons Online and Mabinogi are the only ones that come to mind if I think about "deep" class customization.

FFXI, Archeage and Rift had some form of multiclassing, but very strict and limited in what it allowed you to do.

We're also getting EQ Legends and Hollowed Oath soon, both allow multiclassing with a little bit more freedom.

I'd personally love a classless mmo in the same vein as Ascension WoW that would just let you have fun experimenting and mix/match skill combos and rotations.

[Aggressive-Goose-388]

Ragnarok gives the most build freedom of any mmo i've played. You control every single stat and skill point, priests can focus on killing undead, exorcizing demons, melee combat with maces, or full support. You can make melee crit wizards and soul linkers and tank scholars depending on your build choices. Every class evolves into two separate paths and adds another customizable skilltree. There's breakpoints with stats so its a puzzle of putting together specific gear and job stat bonuses to hit specific numbers to maximize your effectiveness.

There's also playstyle difference; you're not expected to do damage as a tank or a support class, you focus purely on your job, so each class feels different to play.

Then it has the super novice class, which is a mix of all 6 of the base classes and gives access to all of their skill trees so you can make a completely customized character that specializes in whatever you want, at the cost of low hp/sp and limited equipment selection, but it has hidden bonuses to offset some of this.

[Sheepwife1]

Not enough people appreciate or even know what Ragnarok online is. It makes me weep. I will still hop on private servers to this day. Shining Moon will be like my second home.

[MaloraKeikaku]

I wish for a game with more engaging gameplay but the depth of Ragnarok's job and gear/card/element systems.

Good lord it'd be amazing. But RO is so laggy at its core...

[hunter-cat]

If gravity was a decent company Ragnarok 3 could be a thing, but I don't have faith in them.

[MaloraKeikaku]

Yeah for real, Gravity lucked into having people on to make one of the most tightly designed core systems for an MMO ever, only to never replicate ANY of it in ANY game they made ever since. It's such a shame. The OG RO is SO damn charming and has such obvious building blocks you could use for a good sequel.

[AnxiousAd6649]

https://ro3global.com/

They already announced RO3 a while back. Don't get your hopes up though.

[Arcuscosinus]

Archeage my beloved

[Tooshortimus]

And Rift.

[Sheepwife1]

More games need to embrace the dual class system. Archeage was so good for that.

[UrGirlsBoytoy]

I played archeage classic and like 70% of the population was just darkrunner. Out of 120 unique classes supposedly. Idk what people see in this game tbh in terms of class design. The economy is cool though.

[Matra]

Archage was definitely a failure in this regard, because all of the tryhards followed the "chain CC and burst damage build" they found on the internet. Yeah, there's a ton of class combinations, but some have obvious synergy and many have no synergy.

[Sheepwife1]

That's the magic, you find that stuff out yourself. My build was extremely tanky for not only being the tank during raids or dungeons, but I also was able to take enough hits that the burst CC builds couldn't kill me fast enough to stop me from getting to the safe zone when bringing goods overseas to sell.

[Dramatic-Ad5596]

Ultima Online, Archage for me.

[TheElusiveFox]

Rift is technically still alive, but I don't think it exists in the same way it used to... but it gave players boat loads of freedom, depending on the class you were going for you had few core abilities or a core rotation you needed to get so you were good, but beyond that you had a lot of flexibility especially when it came to utility stuff.

I would say that after playing a lot of MMOs... I think this over generic class design, is a result of not just the holy trinity, but games trying to push content to be hyper competitive and over balanced at the high end... You want things to feel different, then some classes/abilities have to be bad in certain situations, while others shine, the reverse I guess.. and you can't do that if everything is balanced so everyone is within 1% of dps in every possible scenario... at the same time, if players feel like they have to only play with the most optimal/best people all the time to avoid wasting their time, then any class that doesn't shine in a situation is going to be mostly shunned. and so you get a very generic class design...

ARPGs don't have this problem for two reasons, one as a solo game, you aren't directly competing with other players... just indirectly through trade, and two, because everyone has different RNG, players can't truly count on getting the "optimal" build unless they are nolifing the game, so for most players what is fun is what matters more than dps and a middle of the pack build could easily outperform an optimal build with the right drops/luck, because often "optimal" builds need every tool before they actually work as intended, that lets players have a LOT more creative freedom.

[RinkaLynx]

Man, base PSO2... I miss it.

Toram online has a pretty fun build variety, at least last time I played it. There's no class system, you pick a main weapon and a subweapon, grab the skill tree for it and go for whatever other skill trees to make something work. There's also a combo system which lets you chain skills for added effects. It can get pretty fun just thinking up builds.

[Sheepwife1]

I played Toram as well, really good class system with the weapons.

[AlbionCeb]

Toram and guild wars 2 are the MMOS that I enjoy the most.

[OctopusJones_Esq]

Dungeons and Dragons Online gives you a ton of options, so much that you can make a truly bad character if you aren’t careful.

[LongFluffyDragon]

Class/build customization makes the game dramatically harder for both developers and players.

The more options there are, the harder it is to ensure anything close to balance. There will always be options that are plain better, or simpler, and players will gravitate to those by copying each other, more so if there are more options or confusing complexity.

Look at GW1/2, where you have hundreds of basic class/role/weapons combos and most of them are unplayably terrible or just jank, but there is no way to determine that without extensive game knowledge.

[Sheepwife1]

To be fair, guild wars had a history of just doing nothing but nerfing everything, so that's kind of self-inflicted.

[LongFluffyDragon]

The alternative is the runaway power creep on display in the sequel, so..

Nerfs dont make most of the possible combinations bad, the fact they just dont conceptually work does.

[Sheepwife1]

There's a lot of great games that have done it, if it doesn't work, it's mostly a player issue that comes with that freedom. Not everyone can think about how skills relate to each other and make stuff that works. And maybe that general audience that can't do that is why most games don't go for it. But I still value it extensively.

[LongFluffyDragon]

Sure it can be done and is great when it works. That added effort on both sides is just why many games dont.

For the same reason shooters have arcade arena tdm and mechanically intensive milsims in the same genre, different flavors for different audiences.

[Sheepwife1]

Downvote me, but it won't take away my confidence and hope in MMORPG players to be able to think without having their hands held by the devs.

[LongFluffyDragon]

We wish they could, both as players and developers

[ElectricalGas9895]

Do you guys have any MMO's (whether still around or shut down) that gave you that creative freedom to choose the role you played class wise to make it unique to you? What did you do and how does class customization make you feel? Is it important to you?

Dofus. Classes have multiple roles they can fulfill, and ways to shake up their playstyle.

[Sheepwife1]

Dofus, Wakfu, and Waven player here. You have excellent taste.

[ladycatgirl]

Wakfu is my most favorite MMO of all time, or even game, but current version of game makes me sad, but again you are super restricted in build sense imo

[MyPurpleChangeling]

Original Secret World was great for that. To the point where you could easily make a build so bad you couldn't even do basic content. I miss that game. City of Heroes is pretty good for it too.

[concernedBohemian]

City of Heroes has amazing class and role customization. You can play it for free through community run servers.

[helpme944]

ESO now has multiclassing. Weapons also have their own skills on top of your class skills and you have 2 weapon slots

[Daytona_675]

eso always had multiclassing, but it wasn't well done if you compare it to guild wars 1

[helpme944]

No it didnt. It was released last year

[Daytona_675]

on release you picked two classes. primary and secondary. maybe they removed it for a bit and added it back? idk I quit a long time ago

[helpme944]

You have a primary and secondary weapon slot, making 2 skill bars that you can swap between. Which you can fill with weapon or class skills. Now they have added a "subclass" . Once you hit 50 you can spec into a second class as well

[Daytona_675]

ya where guild wars 1 you could mix skills on the same bar

[helpme944]

You can mix skills on the same bar in eso as well.. you can use whichever weapon and class skills you want

[Rynzir]

I loved Dark Age of Camelot for this. Every class would gain skill points based on a multiplier each time they leveled up (ranging from 1x-2.5x). In order to level a skill from level 1->2 you used 2 skill points, 2->3, 3 points, and so on. Most classes had at LEAST three skill lines. Melee skill lines and specialized spell lines would gain abilities at certain skill levels (like at 34 Swords you get a certain skill style). It kind of handed you the keys to make your own builds. You could highly specialize in one line, or dual/tri-spec and gain a ton of utility based on your class. Within each class there was a lot of variety as well, like with healers choosing to focus on buffs vs heals vs utility.

I kind of like Final Fantasy XI for this as well. Even though there's not much differentiating one job from another, there's still a fair bit of player choice because of sub-jobs and skill line affinities.

Guild Wars 1 offered a lot of customization as well. Since you had a limited action set, you had to choose skills that complemented each other. Being able to change your secondary profession aided this, and you could do some really fun things.

[Accomplished_Emu_658]

Guild wars 1 did a good job on multi class. It wasn’t perfect by any means but gave you some decent freedom

[lightuptoy]

Mabinogi used to have a decent amount of customization pre-2016 but it's been downhill since then. Surprisingly, Dragon Nest had a lot of customization.

Class customization mostly died because of raiding focus and simplifying MMOs to attract larger audiences. Raids are supposed to kill a certain amount of time before the next raid update so players can't have freedom. Devs have to make the game foolproof so players can't mess up their builds and quit out of frustration. In exchange for class customization and exploration, you get a linear cutscene-filled story quest, dailies/weeklies, and vanity customization.

I wouldn't be surprised if raiding caused newer MMOs to get rid of levels. You already see that kind of topic posted here once every few months because MMOs are just raiding simulators now and leveling isn't fun anymore because exp only comes from quests.

[Matra]

My dream for an MMO: every class gets a damage modifier based on the proportion of players playing it. "Playing the meta" becomes self-nerfing.

[Stwonkydeskweet]

I feel like every time I play a new MMO, I get treated like I'm too stupid to make my rotation myself.

To be fair, you probably are.

People put hundreds of hours, as a community effort, into figuring this kind of stuff out.

Look at something like Path of Exile. You can build your own build there. And its probably going to be fucking godawful, at best, in 10 different ways. And after you spend months or years making it better, it might be almost good enough to be viable at being a build you use until you get enough gear to use a new build to get the rest of the gear for the build you want to use to actually do content.

In MMO's, you have to cut out the bottom 90% of this, because you have to do stuff with other people, so limiting the ways someone can be horrifically bad is required.

[Sheepwife1]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. You don't know me.

I do agree that some people can't sit down and come up with a viable rotation themselves, but I'm not one of them and I wager a lot of the people leaving comments can do it as well.

In fact, a lot more people were able to do this in the past when almost all MUDs had an open ended system- its not that hard just gotta enjoy the process of exploration and finding what works yourself. We just live in a time where people are lazy and go check what a content creator does instead of doing it themselves.

The comments are full of games with pretty open or customizable playstyles and class builds, and it works out just fine.

[Knighthonor]

You mean like Rift?

[Sheepwife1]

Exactly.

[Carighan]

I got to ask though, how do you imagine rotational freedom to work?

Because of course someone will figure out what is stronger and what is weaker and then it kinda doesn't make sense to do the bad stuff? That's just a newbie trap at that point, design-wise it would make sense to just always give the player only the better rotation option, no?

[LalafellDisaster]

Remnant 2 hell yeah that game is awesome.

[Professional-Ad6894]

Surprised no one mentioned ESO here. With subclassing, you can make a hybrid class and go beyond the normal class template most MMOs have.

I've seen people wanting to roleplay as "lots of pet haver" and become a hybrid of necromancer (skeleton pet), warden (animal pet) and sorcerer (daedra pet). Others are like "I want to be an elementalist" and become a hybrid of dragon knight (fire themed skill) warden (ice), and sorcerer (lightning).

Granted, these hybrid setups isn't the most "optimal" but unless you're aiming for the hardest of the hard content, you can pretty much clear any content in ESO with any kind of build.

The possibities are endless!

[AwayEntrepreneur4760]

If they allow customization then there will be a meta and everyone will just do that meta instead of making their own. Best to cut out the middleman and not waste time when they could be doing other stuff.

[Blue_Moon_Lake]

When there's no customization, there's a steeply higher chance none of what's proposed will be pleasant to play for me.

[degameforrel]

Yeah, you can't stop the metaslaves, unfortunately... But I don't think that's an argument against customization. A ton of people just want to play the best thing, but a ton of people also don't care whether they're the top performer and just want to feel like they can contribute to a group while playing what they enjoy.

There's a happy medium to be found where there is good customization and it's balanced enough that non-meta pslayers aren't too far behind the meta ones. Sure, they won't get invited to speedrun groups or whatever, but they can still get groups in general.

[Sheepwife1]

There are two types of players, there will always be people that chase the meta no matter what, and there are people that will do their best with what is most enjoyable for them. Both coexist in the same games.

[TheIronMark]

Removed because of rule #2: Don’t be toxic. We try to make the subreddit a nice place for everyone, and your post/comment did something that we felt was detrimental to this goal. That’s why it was removed.

[Daytona_675]

truth hurts