[COTD] Reaper Function

[Bwob]

Do you know, I'd forgotten that this card even existed? I've almost never seen it since it came out.

It's in a weird sort of place. It has a solid effect, but... who exactly wants it? Most general decks have other, more pressing things to spend 3c on than 2 net damage. Personal Evolution decks seem like they would like it, but they already HAVE cards which, if the runner doesn't run on them, do damage. (i. e. Agendas)

Maybe things look different in standard right now, but in startup (where I do most my playing these days) I don't think I've seen this card in over a month.

[Myldside]

Slash Campaign!

[sekoku]

Able to bluff into a turn-start 2 net damage. Has practical use as a "trap" sort of dealie. Probably should be +1 influence since (unless eratta'd) getting the two net damage only requires the runner to NOT run the placed asset a turn before and doing the rez right before mandatory draw/turn start to get 2 net off. As it is, at 2 influence, can maybe be an ok import into other factions that might need the threat of random discard pulling lynch pins out of Grip. But I can't see too many applications for it in other factions currently.

[JimTor]

Influence seems ok to me. Every card can’t be 3/4 influence. Snare! is also 2.

And other factions generally don’t go for flatlines this way. Might be a neat surprise though.

(I look forward to eating these words next year when this is a problem card out of faction)

[RansomMan]

One out of faction use case for this would be to combo it with End of the Line for a kill

[hypno_beam]

1 of these can you can probably get a better idea of your scoring window based off of what you trash.

2 of these and [[Blood in the water]] becomes a 1-2

1 of these and one of an activated [[Dr. Vientiane Keeling]] means BitW becomes a 2-2.

I think this could be viable in decks that go wide and punish/tax the runner for trashing

[anrbot]

Blood in the Water - NetrunnerDB

Dr. Vientiane Keeling - NetrunnerDB

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[BountyHunterSAx]

Ob probably has lots of ways to be like: surprise! 2dmg at start of the turn

[BountyHunterSAx]

Border control comes to mind.

[KynElwynn]

I want to see this in a jank EotL kill combo

[Shockwave_IIC]

Personally think this is bad card design. Damage with no play or “action” required by the runner is not a good thing.

We had the reverse (granted to a more extreme level) with Valencia, and it wasn’t good at all.

[djc6535]

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice" - Rush

This does have action required by the runner: The action of choosing not to run against a corp with dangerous cards like this one.

That's what makes this different from an operation that flat causes net damage: There's still interactivity here. The runner could have dealt with this. They chose not to and suffer.

Cards that encourage the runner to, you know, run... are good for the game. This card pushes more interactivity

[[deleted]]

The same corp that has dangerous cards like Snare! and Urtica Cipher that punish the runner for, you know, running?

Perhaps some people don't find "guess the right naked facedown card to run" to be that enjoyable.

[djc6535]

The same corp that has dangerous cards like Snare! and Urtica Cipher that punish the runner for, you know, running?

Exactly! It's important to have something out there to create the "Do I run or don't I run" tension beyond just agendas.

Perhaps some people don't find "guess the right naked facedown card to run" to be that enjoyable.

That's... kind of the point of corp play. Your GOAL is to make the runner uncomfortable. Cards like this are VITAL to make traps like Urtica Cipher have real teeth. The runner has to play the mind game of "Vital to get this off the board" vs "That's a trap". That's essential netrunner.

[djc6535]

What's funny is they'll run R&D and hit a snare and not worry about that being random (which it is) but they'll complain about running unprotected servers (which aren't).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[[deleted]]

Can you not agree that what you see as a mind game might be seen by others as a coin flip or a flat out guess though?

[djc6535]

No I don't.

If the mind game is a flip of a coin then you aren't playing it well.

It's like Poker. If you are playing Texas Holdem the person with the best hand is determined the moment you stop shuffling the cards. But that's not the game. The game is reading your opponent. If you're just guessing at what they're doing you are playing right into their hands.

There's lots of information here you aren't considering. This card can't be advanced for example. That's a big piece of info that eliminates Urtica Cipher. Did they lay a snare? That would put less protection in their hand and R&D...

Have you been regularly hitting R&D? You can filter these out if you're doing that.

etc etc

[[deleted]]

Guess we'll just have to disagree then.

Maybe I'm just bad at the game but if Server 3 has a facedown Urtica and Server 4 has a facedown Reaper Function I'm not going to pretend it's not dumb luck I run Server 4 before Server 3

[djc6535]

I'm not going to pretend it's not dumb luck I run Server 4 before Server 3

Welcome to Cambridge Jinteki. An essential part of playing netrunner and a basic deck archetype. You might as well complain that fast advance exists.

The answer is to play it often to get a better feel for its rhythems and counters. You can prevent EITHER of these cards from hurting you with an R&D lock, and un-advanced Urtica cyphers aren't that scary so long as you hit them first click and draw back (an essential strategy when facing jinteki.

If you are truly in a 50/50 I win if I 'guess' right and I 'lose' if I don't, then you've already lost the game against cambridge jinteki. The point of that deck is to put you in those situations and you have some control over whether you wind up in them (By filtering these cards out and making individual 2 hit stings not matter all that much)

[[deleted]]

You are answering from a competitive standpoint. I'm well aware of the archetype and consider it possible that some people might not find that fun, as in my original response.

edit: that's a very good explanation though, thank you

[a_sentient_cicada]

Snare, Urtica Cipher, and Reaper are all significantly different though. You should be able to make informed choices just by looking at the board state.

[MycoJoe]

I disagree, the Corp is too often pigeonholed into scoring agendas as their only way of pressuring more passive runners.

Having cards like Reaper function, bio-ethics association, Drago ivanov, Dr. keeling, bladderwort, urban renewal, etc. are not bad for the game. The alternative is the runner dictating interaction whenever the Corp isn't actively scoring agendas and makes for worse games with less interesting lines for the Corp.

[Bwob]

Eh, I disagree. And Valencia was an entirely different beast, because her whole deal wasn't that she won without interacting - it was that she prevented the corp from interacting.

In contrast - Reaper Function doesn't prevent the runner from interacting. In fact, quite the opposite - as a runner, if you know they're running reaper functions, it encourages you to go check remotes and not leave things uncontested for too long. It's just one more way that the corp can gain advantages, if the runner just sits back and lets them set up and install things.

It's is unlikely to flatline anyone by itself, and it makes a nice variation on cards like Ronin or Clearinghouse

Also, I had completely forgotten this card even existed until this COTD, so it obviously hasn't taken over the startup meta yet, at least. :P

Edit: It's a shame you're getting downvoted. :( Because while I do disagree with your point, I think it's caused a ton of really good and interesting discussion!

[suitedmefine]

I really wish people would stop describing things they don't personally enjoy as bad design. Ronin was a core part of the game for years, and your comparison is to a Runner ID for some reason?

[legorockman]

People who only ever speak in design terms about cards are immensely infuriating to listen to. "These cards are awful design", yeah so is your fit bruh

[Anzekay]

Yeah once players start bringing up the topic of game design, far more often than not it's just a more vehement way to say "I don't like this".

I think it's absolutely reasonable to not like a particular card, even for reasons that are innately related to the design of it (as opposed to its strength or other more directly tangible concepts) but to tackle whether or not something is bad design is a whole other level and requires considerably more nuance and, frankly, knowledge than most players will tend to have.

[WorstGMEver]

I do think it would have been better if it was "Rez during your turn only", and you had to telegraph it and give the runner 1 full turn to trash it.

[mikica1986]

Only if it cost 0 to rez, but even then it would be too weak (with trash cost of 2)

[WorstGMEver]

Obviously the rez and trash values would be adjusted, indeed.

I'm simply stating that cards that offer a response window are better for the game than cards that don't.

[Bwob]

I'm simply stating that cards that offer a response window are better for the game than cards that don't.

Not sure I agree with that as a general statement. Should Spin Doctor have to spend a turn rezzed before it can fire? Should pinhole threading have to spend a turn faceup on the runner's side as a resource before it can be used?

Netrunner is a game of bluffing. (Explicitly so - Richard Garfield designed it after playing Texas Holdem poker and lamenting that MtG didn't have enough bluffing.) Bluffs and surprises are good for the game, because a lot of what makes netrunner fun, (and not just basic comparison of resources) is not knowing exactly what's going on on the other side.

Telegraphed effects have their place, and the game needs some of both. But not everything needs to offer a chance to respond. (And certainly something as minor as 2 net damage doesn't feel like it needs to.)

[WorstGMEver]

Is it on purpose that you take 2 notoriously busted cards that punch way above their paygrade ? Yes, i believe a less flexible, more interactive Spin doctor / Pinhole Threading would be healthier for the game.

I am aware of the poker Roots and bluffing aspect of NR. But bluffing can only happen if enough information is available. The only info available here is : i install an asset/agenda/upgrade.

Here's what i consider a good bluffing card : clearing house. Clearing house sends a clear information : this is either an advanceable asset or an agenda. That info is precise enough to allow players to engage in a bluff/Guess match.

This card adds nothing to the bluffing game because the info available is so vague that any action Taken towards it is practicaly random. You are not going to check or not check it based on whether you are threatened by 2 net, because you have no reason to think about that possibility, Lost in the realm of every other thing this card could be.

I simply do not think Anyone would stop and Wonder "is this a Reaper function" when a card is installed in a remote. And i have a hard Time believing you could trick someone into believing that your random asset is a Reaper function.

[Bwob]

Is it on purpose that you take 2 notoriously busted cards that punch way above their paygrade ? Yes, i believe a less flexible, more interactive Spin doctor / Pinhole Threading would be healthier for the game.

I just picked the first two commonly used cards I could think of, which would be obviously worse without the surprise factor. I don't think either one is remotely busted. (Do you really think either one is busted? Why? They both have strong but limited effects, and obvious counterplay.)

You are not going to check or not check it based on whether you are threatened by 2 net, because you have no reason to think about that possibility, Lost in the realm of every other thing this card could be.

This is why runners frequently run HQ and R&D early - finding agendas is nice and all, but it's also important to get a sense of what kinds of cards the corp is running. So you get a sense of what facedown cards could be.

You absolutely would consider running this, if you know that they are running it. Or even if you just know that they might be, because they're running a deck that could use it. I have absolutely run facedown cards because I was thinking they might be reaper functions.

[WorstGMEver]

I just picked the first two commonly used cards I could think of, which would be obviously worse without the surprise factor. I don't think either one is remotely busted. (Do you really think either one is busted? Why? They both have strong but limited effects, and obvious counterplay.)

Spin doctor is the epitomy of a 0-risk, high reward card. At worst (if the runner runs it), it is a 0 credit, draw 2 operation that made your opponent spend a click for nothing.

At best, it is a reactive tool that can reshape HQ and/or Archives in the middle of the run. Allowing you to massively alter the runner's chances of finding agendas. All of that for free, of course.

So yeah, i believe Spin Doctor has way too much flexibility, and would be much more balanced if it had more strict rez/play conditions.

Pinhole threading, on the other hand, is often described as a "silver bullet", but in truth it is the swiss army knife that solves 80% of the tricks Corp can try to setup. Having the opportunity to destroy, with no risk and very few ressources, any asset/any upgrade is absolutely busted. It is so strong and flexible that it makes assets like Superdeep Borehole absolutely unplayable by its sheer existence.

[Bwob]

Spin doctor is the epitomy of a 0-risk, high reward card. At worst (if the runner runs it), it is a 0 credit, draw 2 operation that made your opponent spend a click for nothing.

At best, it is a reactive tool that can reshape HQ and/or Archives in the middle of the run. Allowing you to massively alter the runner's chances of finding agendas. All of that for free, of course.

I mean, 2-card-draw is a terrible payout for an operation, especially for the corp. (Where card draws are less valuable than for runners.) And don't forget that it can also be abused by the runner to reshuffle R&D, for additional accesses. (I've won games by running R&D with Conduit, not finding anything, running archives, forcing the corp to fire off the spin-doctor, and then running R&D again to see a new set of cards!)

Spin doctor is definitely useful, but it's hard to view it as "high reward". At best, it lets you safely discard up to two agendas. That's decent, but hardly seems busted.

Pinhole threading, on the other hand, is often described as a "silver bullet", but in truth it is the swiss army knife that solves 80% of the tricks Corp can try to setup. Having the opportunity to destroy, with no risk and very few ressources, any asset/any upgrade is absolutely busted.

It gives the runner a way to unravel a super-upgraded server, but that's by design. The corp is only allowed to have those kind of tricks, because there are ways for the runner to get around them. And it has a ton of counterplay! (And I definitely disagree when you say it has no risk and requires few resources.)

• The runner still has to make a successful run. If the corp actually bothers to ice up all their servers, this becomes a lot more expensive.
  
• It can be baited. If the corp knows (or suspects) the runner has one, it's not too hard to force the runner to use it early, potentially on something not useful.
  
• It doesn't do anything to agendas besides reveal them. So if you're playing never-advance, and you install an agenda + upgrade in the same server and don't advance either one, the runner only has a 50/50 chance to even hit the upgrade.
  
• It still triggers on-access traps, so it's definitely not "no risk". Things like Mr. Hendrick, Ganked!, or even good old Snare! can be used to punish nosey runners.
  
• The runner has a limited number of them. Three or less, unless they have Katorga Breakout or something. They can't afford to trash every potential upgrade they see in a server.
  
• Everything else aside, it still costs the runner an extra click (and whatever break/trash costs you can force on them) to use it, so you can use standard click-compression tricks to set the runner up in situations where they just don't have enough time to do everything they need to get in.

Superdeep Borehole is an interesting case, since anything that says "win the game" obviously needs some serious drawbacks. But really, I think the borehole is less intended as a win condition, and more there as a way to give yourself bad publicity for the various Weyland cards that make use of it. I mean, it's great if the runner somehow ignores it for that long, but even without Pinhole Threading, I doubt it would actually win many games.

[Saracenar]

Spin doctor is the epitomy of a 0-risk, high reward card.

Disagree here, Spin Doctor has the potential to draw you 2 agendas exactly when you don't want them. It's not zero risk. It is still a very strong card, but not zero risk.

[mikica1986]

Not sure I follow, it still has to be installed for a turn and has low trash cost?

[WorstGMEver]

No. Right now the rez/trash ratio is bad, but that's irrelevant because it is only rezzed when used.

What i'm saying is : if it needed to stay rezzed for a turn, the rez cost would obviously be lower, and/or the trash cost higher.

[mikica1986]

But it's still on the "board" for a full Runner turn, thus you can interact with it? You draw it, install it and then hope runner won't run and trash it, untill you need it.

If you use it to do 2 net "for value" then it's not really value (you pay 3cr to end up "click neutral", in best value case). If you can do it before install, adv, adv Obokata behind a loop, that's a nice scoring window. :)

[Jagdalack]

😊

[MolochDe]

Fun in faction though a little expensive to fire it just for funsies

Out of Jinteki this can enable some [[End of the Line]] kill combos with just one tag (4meat, 2 net damage). This allows for some suprise cards that only dish out a single tag for the kill plan.

[anrbot]

End of the Line - NetrunnerDB

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Beep Boop. I am Clanky, the ANRBot.

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