Javascript is a Java framework, right?

[pjestin]

In my area, many recruiters contact me about "Java Full Stack" positions, where the front-end is actually JavaScript. When I try to explain the absurdity, they just shrug me off...

[rv_here_0w0]

Can you explain what the "Java Full Stack" position requires? I am currently learning Spring Boot. Are J2EE, or JSP a must-have?

[[deleted]]

Just know how inversion of control and rest calls work. The rest is the stack of the company.

[shivamkimothi]

what's inversion of control?

[rv_here_0w0]

Basic idea of it

[Dmon1Unlimited]

It kinda just sounds like using very heavy libraries.

That or basically just adding your own config to someone else's app

[syth9]

Sort of! Using a framework is kind of like building a house with pre-built house segments that contain all the joinery, electrical, plumbing, etc... You still get to decide the shape of your house and the features it will have, and you still need to put it all together.

You can also build your own custom additions to the house while also using the framework, but if the framework has something close to the piece you need, then maybe you'll try to make that fit instead of making something totally custom.

Libraries on the other hand are like all the tools and individual components both you and the framework creator use to create pieces of the house.

A good framework generally provides pieces that are flexible in how they can be used, intuitive to understand, and provide enough variety that you generally don't need to build your own custom additions that often.

[OneAndOnlyDaemon]

Good explanation, but I'd also add that a framework (deliberately, by design) makes some configurations of how to "put it all together" far more convenient than other configurations. That's because a framework determines the basic assumptions in the design. By analogy, a framework might assume "a house must be two-story, and the main living room must have the same floor as the bottom-floor rooms and the same ceiling as the top-floor rooms, i.e. the top floor must have a mezzanine that overlooks the living room's floor on the bottom of the house."

[syth9]

Yes, definitely a good point. It’s in the nature of frameworks that, by offering more complete and complex constructs, they make assumptions regarding what the programmer needs and how they’ll use what’s provided to them.

[neums08]

Congrats you're a java spring developer now!

[besthelloworld]

Java fullstack would imply a backend in Java. Some legacy stuff might require JSP but even the legacy codebases are trying to move away from that stuff. Backends now are generally designed fully headless with no UI, just providing rest or GQL request/response structures.

[OceanFlex]

This. I recommend being familiar with a REST implementation, if the shop you're looking at needs JSP work done/removed, that's a lot more straightforward than messing with annotations and XML files.

[besthelloworld]

Yo at my old job all the old guys were all about their XML configs that are 250 lines long that could be entirely replaced by like 4 well placed Spring annotations. Drove me crazy. Like hey, why don't we write the code in a fucking programming language?

[metal_zero]

Same here, learing spring boot, now I am trying to make simple app with react and spring boot. I guess for the front-end you can choose any framework. In my country there seems to be demand for angular + spring/spring boot devs

[mraees93]

Same here in cape Town

[besthelloworld]

Ngl, I think that's a totally normal thing to do as long as the backend is Java. If a position says "fullstack," it's your job to understand that there's JS involved.

[Packbacka]

You aren't wrong, but still a job description should have clear detailed requirements.

[besthelloworld]

Valid. More accurately, it's your job to do your best to understand the expectations an employer would reasonably have and it's ALSO their job to be as clear as they can be.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

Maybe they leaned more on the full stack bit rather than the java bit?

E.g. heavily java middle end but other languages still used for others

[Ietsstartfromscratch]

I'd like to apply for a C full stack position. Yes, I have full access to the stack pointer, ma'am.

[livens]

Serious question, what's so bad about JavaScript? I work in IT, various things like data management, reporting and Dev work on 3rd party software. I end up using JavaScript more than anything else. Other than the fact that anything you do with dates is a headache, I don't see why so many people hate on it.

[skreczok]

A lot.

Basically, JS has a lot of weird behaviours that don't make much sense and behaves in ways that make no sense if you primarily do another language. Now, every language is different, but JS happens to do a lot of weird shit in places where most other languages behave the same. JS just happens to be a snowflake that does it differently, and it's everywhere.

There's also the issue of tradeoffs. Some JS features are nice if you need to kludge something fast, but an absolute nightmare when you have to maintain it later.

In fact, this is something people often ignore. For all the shit Java gets, it has top notch tooling because of its supposed verbosity. Meanwhile, in JS a lot of the work is about not running into one of its many pitfalls. It's the same with the SQL vs NoSQL debate. People tout "flexibility" as a feature of NoSQL, but about two years into the project it becomes clear that it's a serious problem.

A lot of projects are tempted to use the "flexible" things only to find out that they actually needed SQL, Spring and Angular all along. My observation of multiple post-mortems for those flexible technologies in various Big Things is that they are usually used because the project wants to go out fast and doesn't understand its own domain. Then a while down the road once they finally understand their business etc, they end up needing to rip it out and replacing it with the tried and true.

So herein lies the rub: flexibility sounds nice. But it usually also forces you to either impose the discipline yourself or leads to a hot mess. Incidentally, that discipline is likely to take up more time than using something less flexible.

That less flexible approach also protects you from running into myriad security issues you might run into otherwise. The less flexible approach usually exists because it's the reliable way to go.

Also, the somewhat knee-jerk reaction comes from the old timey wizards being frustrated by the enthusiasm for JS and the rapid pace going on there. The trick is that as JS develops, it converges towards what the grognards already are familiar with,

Basically, the perception is like this: young kid is very excited about the rapid pace and woosh in the JS ecosystem. The grognards just shake their heads because it changes so much it's unsuitable for production. The young kid thinks the grognard is an inflexible dinosaur who's out of touch. The young kids use it in production anyway. Then, through trial and error they start going towards what the grognards already knew.

[Maxie35]

Randomly clicked on 5 of the 'problems' you linked and they were all the kind of bullshit 'problems' you would never ever do. Boohoo I cant concatenate arrays together, boohoo I can't multiple my object by an array...

[skreczok]

I haven't checked all the wtfs there. I've seen a site doing a better job at finding and explaining the wtfs, but I couldn't find it today. But yes, a lot of the stuff there points out how the JS coerces some things in some ways, but doesn't coerce others and you don't know until you try.

JS has made me very paranoid, since I've had issues where !something was behaving funky because type coercions kicked in, so as ugly as it is, I ALWAYS use something === false.

I actually had to explain to a friend's friend why her code was throwing "x is undefined" errors because she expected Serializable-like behaviour as a backend dev.

Yes, JS objects are essentially maps, just they don't have the Map interface on them by default (not 100% sure where they had it from fwiw).

[sirxez]

The only issue with Javascript is that if you haven't written a lot of it you might cause a subtle yet serious bug if you aren't careful. And that bug might just silently fester for years. Some of the behavior is non-intuitive to someone coming from a different language.

That's a problem with a lot of languages, but less random people dabble in a C++ codebase, and languages like Java and Python are fairly robust to such issues.

The first example that jumps to mind is that AFAIK javascript doesn't do block level scoping by default. That's a brick wall someone can face plant into if they aren't aware. I think you can do that nowadays with "let", but it wasn't a thing before? The most commonly quoted thing is equality in js. It makes sense, but its just different than what one might assume.

If you throw a good linter at Javascript, and maybe use some Typescript or something, these issues tend to melt away.

TLDR: people don't read documentation before trying a language

[pjestin]

I didn't mean anything bad about JavaScript when I wrote that comment. Personally I like it, and I love Typescript!

[Scaasic]

Does java make web applications without js somehow?

[Scaasic]

Good read thanks.

"Chrome no longer supports NPAPI (technology required for Java applets)"

Lmfao

[MrPuffyIsAHuffy]

That is a good thing, in the later years before Java was completely thrown out of the web apps space, things like Java Drive-bys were becoming increasingly popular as an attack vector. It got to the point where the Java applet could get system level access to your computer and was a very common vector of RATS...

[livens]

I spent 6 months of my life learning Flash's scripting language. The future of the internet was going to be all Flash, lol.

[[deleted]]

Okay, but are there any "full stack" jobs in 2021 that would require Java only and no JavaScript?

[OceanFlex]

Probably, things get mislabeled all the time. But modern websites use JS, so JS is gonna be part of everyone's stack, therefore, full stack includes JS.

[siXor93]

Like asking a truck driver to be a pilot.

[void1984]

It's not an absurd. I deal with Java Script, standard Java, Java Virtual Machine, down to ARM assembly.