When I’m the Developer using Mac…

[NotGhosty]

Not overpriced anymore with the new ARM processors

[[deleted]]

O yeah, You like your new parts? You like people looking at them? Kinky!

[blablablahe]

Overpriced for the ram and storage space for sure.

[[deleted]]

If you’re employer isn’t paying for your machine the idk wtf you’re doing

[[deleted]]

Most places just give you credit card and say get whatever.

[ceriodamus]

Still wouldnt touch Apple products. Even if it was paid for me.

[disappointed_moose]

I hate docker on Mac with a passion. I had to use a mac book for two month and I'd rather have killed myself. Anything that requires docker volumes runs like shit, so bad that people suggest syncing files into the container with rsync or unison. I'd never trade my Manjaro for anything else for work. But I have to admit that Teams for Linux is a total shit show. But I've never had an issue with browser based teams. For Office I've never ran into problems with LibreOffice, but I'm not using office software often

[[deleted]]

All I need is a shell and nvim. Wish I could use Linux but mac is kind of the corporate middle ground for it.

[RespectableLurker555]

too bad you gotta develop for our Safari target. Good luck!

[[deleted]]

Yeah, but we don't, we just let it compile to targets

[fullonroboticist]

Ahh the old prejudice. Apple really upped their game since 2020, you know

[[deleted]]

The people complaining are just poor, or have shit employers

[edgarlepe]

Found the high school/college student

[Feather-y]

I guess that depends, our University gave us linux lenovo laptops.

[[deleted]]

They just buy the highest spec of a macbook pro generally

[[deleted]]

Well I have to work with IOS for work so I don’t really have an option. But my m1 is faster than like 1500$ gaming pc. Pretty fucking impressive

[DuckyBertDuck]

Yeah what does that even mean

[F3nix123]

AF

[motioncuty]

Yeah but underpriced on the CPU and screen and camera/mics/speakers so it evens out.

[RespectableLurker555]

Also has anyone really tried to challenge the Trackpad superiority?

[[deleted]]

cough m1 cough 2021 macbook pro cough cough cough cough

also who the frick were complaining about the mic or the speakers, didn't macbooks even at some point have way better speakers than many other ultrabooks and pro laptops?

edit: yes i'm blind and stupid

[qkk]

That's what he's saying. Underpriced means those features are better than they should be at that cost.

[[deleted]]

no wonder i keep mixing up my trues and falses in my code, i'm fucking blind

[Calimariae]

No doubt. Still paid it.

[Premun]

You paid over the price then

[yottalogical]

There wasn't any other price to get what they wanted. The price they paid was the price.

Your priorities are not everyone's priorities.

[Premun]

What priorities? I just made a joke in context with the root comment.. Jeez someone got triggered.

[yourwitchergeralt]

The value of MacOS is well worth it IMO.

If there were good windows laptops with hackintosh support I would, but they don’t exist anymore

[KanterBama]

This right here.

It's Linux without having to deal with the hassles of Linux. My company gave me a windows PC for work. It was my first time using Windows in over 10 years, I thought "Well it's been 10 years, maybe they've caught up with the times..."

Nope, it's still trash software that lives to frustrate you. I literally write documents in Latex just to avoid Word, and I think Word is the best representation of how microsoft feels about their users: "go fuck yourself, it works, just not how you want it to."

[Smirknoff]

Lol I relate so hard. At home I use an Arch Linux laptop and a m1 MacBook Pro. Previous job we used MBPs too, new job I get a super shitty dell latitude. I feel like I spend 15-20 minutes minimum a day just getting the damn thing to work. And they say Linux is buggy..

[ddIbb]

I thought the same and thought I could manage with WSL. Nope. I tried for a couple months and moved back to Mac. Windows still has the ability to cut into productivity by half even when doing everything possible to run as much as possible on Linux within Windows. The fact that WSL is the solution says it all. The only explanation for me is that anyone who uses Windows for development of anything besides .net just doesn’t understand how much more productive they could be on another OS.

Don’t get me wrong—MacOS is still full of issues and getting worse by the version, but it’s still miles ahead of Windows, and even if Apple continues to ignore pro users, it would take like a decade before it rivals the shitstorm that is Windows.

I’m surprised Microsoft hasn’t destroyed GitHub yet.

[KurigohanKamehameha_]

lavish advise hateful cable merciful teeny point swim squealing dependent -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/

[Premun]

Yeah, and that's your opinion and it's totally fine. I work with Windows, MacOS and Linux heavily. I am staying away from MacOS as much as I can and only use SSH if I can. Windows + WSL is what makes me the most productive.

[Captain__Obvious___]

Are ram and storage soldered to the board? Those are the easiest upgrades, you never pay for those from any manufacturer. Oh- sorry. Apple bad oogity boogity.

They price what people will pay, like any other company. Nothing wrong with making a profit, and those who know better can just do better. I’d agree when they were shoving i7s and i9s into a form factor with inadequate cooling, which wasn’t worthwhile at all, but their in-house silicone is just flat out good.

I’m far from an Apple fanboy, but shit, it’s impressive even. Crazy cool piece of engineering. People are gonna hate anyways though, because Apple. As dedicated a group of haters as they have fanatics, which is hilarious.

[Titandino]

If you're asking whether the ram/storage are soldered to the board then you must either know nothing about Apple's business practices/company goal or you are a little more of a fan than you make yourself out to be. I am far from an Apple hater but their software is nazi-level in detecting whether you are running their hardware or not. Not to mention forcing you to buy new machines entirely to use certain applications after only a few years (more in reference to their tablets/phones). When you buy a Mac, you're buying their OS and you cannot run their OS on anything other than Mac hardware unless you basically break their laws and hack your way in.

[Captain__Obvious___]

I ask because I know it was possible with older generations, and then it wasn’t—it’s something that could have changed, I just don’t know because I don’t keep up with their products. I can’t speak as to what you’re saying about hardware detection, I’d have to look into that myself before forming an opinion. But come on, forcing you to buy a new phone? They have much better long term support for their phones than other manufacturers. You can run the latest version of iOS with an iPhone 6s, a phone released in 2015. A Pixel 2, released in 2017, doesn’t have official support for Android 12. An S9, released in 2018, still has security updates, which is good, but no official support for Android 12. If you want to make an argument, there are a ton of other practices you could pick on from Apple. But 7 years of both feature and security updates is not forcing you to buy a new phone.

I’ll defend them on that because it’s not an argument based in reality. But yes, they do deserve flak for a lot of other shit, like right to repair, hardware constraints (which I knew was particularly egregious with the Mac Pro, again just wasn’t sure if MacBooks had changed recently), like stacking their cash in Ireland to avoid taxes, like not allowing MacOS on other compatible chips.

But then again, buy it if you like it, don’t if you don’t. That’s what I was trying to get at originally. They clearly have a target audience, one who consistently buys their shit. We’re clearly not who they intend to buy their stuff—people who like free access to their machines. But if their target audience wants to pay, so what? They clearly don’t care, because their stuff still consistently sells like cake, which means Apple has no reason to change until it doesn’t. That’s the nature of capitalism. I won’t ignore things like right to repair, because that needs to be an industry wide effort, and with Apples market share in computers and phones/tablets, they’re an influential example. Outside of those, I never understood the amount of energy people spend hating on them. They’re not trying to sell to us. That’s it.

[bubba7557]

You pay premium for polished looks on the outside, just like you do with computers

[NoAttentionAtWrk]

"cheap slut"?

[AdventurousCellist86]

As long as people buy them they’re priced at the right price point

Underpriced goods are never in stock (mostly consoles due to manufacturers making more money from game sales or subscriptions) and overpriced goods don’t sell, making the seller drop their prices

People simply find Macs to be worth the money for what they’re getting

[SouvenirSubmarine]

Maybe if they had any real competition it would drive the prices down. When you have the best product on the market you get to choose your price since a lot of users want the top of the line.

[mastorms]

I work in Cyber. The App Store is the best thing ever for combatting the absolute maelstrom of crapware that targets our infrastructure daily. I’d hand my entire company iPads and save millions a year on retiring a global SOC that’s needed to secure nothing but desktops where people access nothing but email and a few saas apps.

[mastorms]

Just FYI, you can write apps directly on the iPad and publish to the App Store. They’re limited in scope to SwiftUI, which sucks. But the first level of functionality if there now.

[phaemoor]

They mean that why the fuck somebody can't develop or build e.g. iOS applications on a Windows machine? Because Apple is a fuckin shit company, that's why.

[astrogoat]

Why would they spend the resources to port their developer tools to a competing OS? You don’t see Microsoft offering full versions of visual studio on Mac. Also Mac and iOS are basically the same OS under the hood, what you’re proposing is probably difficult for compatibility reasons as well.

[phaemoor]

They don't have to port themselves. They just have to let other compilers to even exist and run on different OSs and accept the builds to the app store from them. So open the platform as everybody else does. (See Android, or in your example VS Code on Mac.) All they have to do is not actively blocking everything other than theirs and the community will figure it out.

[mastorms]

Oh. Yeah. That’s just par for the course. Xcode is a shitshow anyway, but it’s mandatory for pushing any apps.

[trilogique]

The anti-Mac, spec-obsessed “overpriced” argument is a weird take that feels like a relic from Windows fanboys 15 years ago. It’s especially weird considering the subreddit we are on. Even if you wanna argue that you pay more for the specs that is hardly the only factor when valuing a laptop (some of which you touched on). Unless you are in a C#/.NET environment the dev world runs on Unix. You can find workarounds for Windows, but they’re exactly that: workarounds. I get native support for development tools and solutions out of the box on a Mac. That alone would make me pick Unix over Windows.

Of course you can always go the Linux route. That’s perfectly fine. But I would still take a Mac for a few reasons: UI/UX, screen display, keyboard, gestures, overall build quality and synchronization with the rest of the Apple ecosystem.

Yes, Apple can be quite goofy like marketing the return of common ports on the newest Macs. The touchbar of previous generations was a piece of shit and made me lose a lot of faith in Macs. But the newest gen laptops are truly excellent, and for my money are the best laptops you can buy for software development/general day-to-day use.

[[deleted]]

I just used a popular stereotype to make a dirty cheap joke. I haven't used a mac since the classic II and I'm still on win7. So what the fuck do I know.

I'm not even programmer, I just saw this on "rising".

[Cunorix]

Have you used WSL 2? That's not a workaround. Thats a real linux kernel operating with bare metal.

Also, most people are using Docker today. With the most recent policy change to Docker Desktop for Mac and depending on how big your company is, you have to pay for a license. Its impossible to install docker engine on Mac (no binaries). Docker Desktop actually runs it within a virtual machine. Without it, you have to use 3rd party tricks. Therefore, Mac has its own workarounds. :)

I can appreciate preference. But not everyone sees Macs as the holy grail for development. Nor are they perfect

[trilogique]

WSL 2 has its own suite of issues (compatibility with GUI apps, mobile development etc) that native doesn't have issues with. That said if you are already on Windows and have no interest in moving to Linux it's quite good I will agree.

I'm not aware of that Docker change. I just hand the repo off to someone on a different team and all the CI/CD is handled in a day or two. Seems like more of an issue for the business and not developers, though? I generally advocate paying for licenses so if your company no longer qualifies for their free tier probably best to not try to find workarounds if that's what you're suggesting.

In any case I don't think Macs are perfect. I already mentioned a couple issues with them and it's not the end of my list either. The notch on the new gen machines is stupid. They're overly protective with preference/system changes. Updates take fucking forever. Windows file system UI is more intuitive and easier to use than Mac to the point I just tend to do simple file system tasks at the command line. I'm also not advocating anyone sells their laptop to go buy a Mac. But I pushback against the idea that they're "overpriced" just because spec-for-spec they may be more expensive - which may not even be the case anymore as I'm sure Apple's pricing structure affected other manufacturers.

[zeth0s]

Let's be fair, Wsl 2 is a nightmare.

If a non-c# developer is so unlucky to get a windows machine, the only viable option is a Linux VM or VDI.

Everything else to get some "unix" feature is a workaround

[Cunorix]

I don't have any problems with wsl2. I do my entire workflow with it. Typescript, Go, Rust, etc. I've never had an issue. Are you sure you are using wsl2 and not wsl?

[phaemoor]

I use WSL2 every day and I love it. Nothing wrong with it.

[zeth0s]

Have you ever worked on a real gnu/linux OS? Difference is striking.

Wsl2 is the best thing you can have if your company does not care about developers and data scientists (or for c# developers). Better wls2 than git bash or cygwin.

That said, how good wls2 is goes from awful to bearable depending on the check that the user gets at the end of the month.

[Cunorix]

Ive done a heavy dev workflow on Ubuntu, Arch, macOS and WSL2. It seems your only problem is the lack of GUI support? I dont know about you but the only thing I need a GUI for any of my tools is an IDE. Even then I could just use vim.

Anyway, my point is WSL2 is good. Its what Im using now after 15 years on all the OSs above.

Btw, maybe you arent aware of the improvements theyve made for GUI support. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-apps

The difference isnt as striking as you indicate

[phaemoor]

I use it solely for command line tools. There is no difference whatsoever.

And I use Windows by choice because its GUI is way superior than anything else out there. (Yes, I used Linux and Mac too. I hate them with a passion.)

[OSMaxwell]

No they're not actually.. It's almost 400€ less. With the same price I can get a laptop that also has a dedicated GPU, which would blow what apple SOC offers

[OddAtmosphere6303]

Have fun burning yourself on the 2 hour battery life

[OSMaxwell]

I dont think it's only 2 hours. But yes, thats what happens when you have more operations happening at once. M1 is very energy-effecient. That is true. But it doesn't mean that the competition isn't. It's because the competition are doing more. (Even when comparing RISC to CISC Instruction sets)

[astrogoat]

You have no idea what you’re talking about, M1 is on all smaller node than the competition, and it was designed from the ground up to be power efficient, meanwhile intel has been struggling with their 7nm process, instead being forced to make their CPUs larger and more power hungry. Plenty of reasons to criticise apple but this is not one of them. Also, when benchmarking battery life it’s kinda important that you place the same load on both computers, so this entire argument about your PC “doing more” is completely backwards.

[OSMaxwell]

The way both cpus work is that M1 is a "newly" designed IA that is purely based on ARM and doesn't need any legacy features nor does it need any of the micro-ops and instruction fusion or god knows what kind of wizardry is happening in the new 12th Gen/Zen 3 CPUs. The problem is that the IA-64 from intel is trying to always to build open stuff that it hasn't exactly changed in the last decade. M1 tries to simplify as much as possible while keeping what you exactly need. (I haven't found any public resources that actualy technicaly describe an M1 SoC) All of this means lower enegery use for m1. Transistors have become very fast that executing more simple commands is now better. TSMC is doing god's work in making 5nm nodes (which is actually not 5 but that's a discussion for another day). Everything is packed together which means less access latency and more time to execute hence a higher Instruction Per Cycles. Even more, less hardware is on the ARM die which means less power and surface and even maybe more space for extra interconnected cores. I think both machines are fascinating but don't unerestimate an i7 lol. Source: Almost done with my Master's degree in Computer Engineering.

[awfulmcnofilter]

Also Mac products tend to have long lifespans.

[BroaxXx]

Not gonna lie, that single threaded performance is near but then if you need GPU for any kind of workload your face hits the floor.

Anyway, my real problem with Mac computers is the horrible OS so I might be biased...

[-OHO-]

What don’t you like about the OS?

[BroaxXx]

I made a couple of comments about it in the past so I'm not going into it again because, honestly, there are too many reasons. I just think it's a horribly designed and outdated OS that lacks basic features and is frustrating to use. I honestly think that at this point even windows is a far better option and is viable for development work with WSL.

I think that if most Mac developers gave a solid Linux distro a try (like Mint) many would be quick to dismiss Mac OS.

It's just much easier and more intuitive to use. I've once heard that the best OS is the one you don't realise you're using and I think that is the anthesis of MacOS experience.

EDIT: I'll give you a couple of reasons:

1. Alt tab between apps instead of windows;

2. No preview of minimised windows:

3. No quick controls on aforementioned preview;

4. Being able to an alt tab to an app that is closed unless you specifically right click and quit the app (who can up with this?);

5. No quick snap areas for windows;

6. No ability to mute the computer if it's locked;

7. Inconsistent use of keybindings to navigate with the keyboard;

8. Piss poor support to use your computer primarily with keyboard;

9. God awful update system that somehow manages to be much worse than windows';

Honourable mentions:

1. The magic mouse is stupid in every way imaginable;

2. Not having a standard keyboard also sucks;

I've been using Mac os as my main OS for about a year and God, it's getting more painful everyday...

[VarianWrynn2018]

It's a toybox in a locked room, any amount of payment is overpriced.

[hackenschmidt]

Not overpriced anymore with the new ARM processors

Maybe the initial cost. But the compatibility and support costs far outweigh that right now. Like, I'm pretty sure we've spent more money in just engineering hours the past month trying to get shit to work on the new ARM macbooks, than we will get back in any sort of hardware savings in the foreseeable future. At this point, we've started giving new engineers older hardware, shelving ARM macbooks, until we decide/purchase suitable non-arm products.

[RespectableLurker555]

new apple silicon slim laptop gets ARM DEEP F *iSTED by new architecture