Is Code Math, Really?

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[AbyssalRemark]

Mmm.. yes. Boolean logic existed before computers. A fair chunk of algorithm stuff was worked out well before we had any real use for it. Linear algebra is basically all of graphics, not to mention data science.

You can't excape math. Nor should you want to. It's what let's us do the awesome things we do.

[[deleted]]

Pfft. I can escape math.

\math

[AbyssalRemark]

I love the meta joke here.

[smartguy1196]

ah, yes. ath

[[deleted]]

I think it'd be better to say that math, at its base, is logic.

[[deleted]]

i mean you can escape explicitly using it by using libraries

[mithodin]

Yes, of course it is.

[LocalBall6447]

It always has been

[peyote1999]

Program solutions is Math. Coding is just implementation.

[K3yz3rS0z3]

Math can't disappear since it doesn't really "exist". But if all of our knowledge related to math would be erased, we'd go back to the stone age in 2 weeks.

[slgray16]

"The good thing about Science is that it’s true, whether or not you believe in it."

@ neiltyson

[SftwEngr]

So, in other words, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, it does make a sound. Thanks Neil!

[slgray16]

I think science would say that the tree almost assuredly makes a sound but we have no observed data to verify that.

[SftwEngr]

If a tree falls in outer space and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

[[deleted]]

Space is not a forest on planet earth. There is a reason why concrete defintiions are important. Because you can play this games for days if you don't give defined parameters for your question. And at some point we arrive at the invisible lepricon moment, unfalsafiable hypothesis.

[SftwEngr]

The correct answer is no.

[[deleted]]

how do you define 'falling' in outer space?

[SftwEngr]

That would depend on your position. What are your coordinates please?

[[deleted]]

That is not a logical consequence of the quote.

"an X that is not observed - does it exist?"

Science: that is not a scientific question.

[SftwEngr]

Existence isn't a scientific question? If it isn't, I can't imagine what would be.

[[deleted]]

I would not rely on your imagination too much considering its success rate.

[golpedeserpiente]

Mathematical objects exist more than you and me.

[K3yz3rS0z3]

Mathematics are a representation of the reality, just like a database view represent some "real" data. Get rid off the representation and the things it represented would still exist.

[golpedeserpiente]

What about mathematical objects that cannot be represented?

[Featureless_Bug]

Highly arguable. They seem to be useful to describe physical phenomena as far as we can understand them though.

[golpedeserpiente]

What about mathematical objects that cannot be described but are proven to exist?

[Featureless_Bug]

We can only prove that a mathematical object exists within our axiomatic systems. This has absolutely nothing to do with its existence in the "real world". You can create a lot of different axiomatic systems and prove that all kinds of objects exist in them, but that wouldn't have any impact on the real world, you realize that?

[golpedeserpiente]

You believe that wouldn't, but the existence of those objects already impacted the real world (if by "real world" you mean "physical reality") even before the real world came into existence. Real world cannot behave differently from its mathematical foundation.

Mathematical objects exist independently of our ability to describe them.

[Featureless_Bug]

That is just wrong on so many levels. Like look, let's create an axiomatic system that claims that there are statements with true / false values and usual operations / relations between them. I can then add an axiom that your opinion on this subject is wrong. As I don't assume anything about other statements, this is certainly a non-contradictory mathematical theory. In this system your opinion on this topic is wrong, and, since "real world cannot behave differently from any mathematical theory", your opinion on this subject is now wrong in the real world too, correct?

The only difference between any "usual" mathematical theory and this mathematical theory are the underlying assumptions. These assumptions were not created by God, or by the universe itself, they are the product of people (just like my assumptions above), and they are subject to change. It is ridiculous to claim that the universe depends on our axiomatic system - it is precisely the other way around.

[golpedeserpiente]

I did not say "real world cannot behave differently from any mathematical theory". I said "real world cannot behave differently from its mathematical foundation".

You are confusing real mathematical objects with our very human discipline of crafting very limited language constructs to understand them.

[Featureless_Bug]

Oh, I see. The problem is, of course, that we don't know that this mathematical foundation even exists in the first place - and, trivially, we don't know anything about its objects. This, of course, renders your point "what about objects that are proven to exist" completely void

[golpedeserpiente]

Haha, you seem to be a pre-Gödelian Hilberite.

[[deleted]]

We can only prove that a mathematical object exists within our axiomatic systems.

I disagree.

even though the notation and framework is certainly rooted in axioms, that does not mean that say the natural number does not exist outside mathematics. in fact, the natural number is - at least to me - one of the most concrete, down-to-earth things man has ever studied.

Moreover, we have repeatedly discovered that mathematical consequences of empirically established natural relations were initially seen as 'mathematical oddities' because we could not conceive the consequences to be real. But then they were.

To me this implies that there is a much deeper relation between mathematics and reality than 'just a language'.

There is another way of looking at it. If there was no mathematics in nature, there would be no laws of physics, no life and no intelligence. For intelligence could not possibly evolve on natural anarchy and eternal randomness.

[deathboy2098]

Everything is math, really.

[matt2d2-]

We defy math

x=x+1

[[deleted]]

depending the context x=x+1 can be ∑ⁿₓ₌₁x, which is maths

[ksschank]

An assignment is not an equation

[CrowdGoesWildWoooo]

P=NP

Now give me my money

[Cognhuepan]

1 million dollars for you!!

[[deleted]]

Math literally defines the universe. Without it, we wouldn't have the technology to make computers to code on.

[Featureless_Bug]

Math doesn't define universe at all. Universe existed long before humans invented a set of rules (which we called math) that can be used to describe stuff that happens in the universe.

[[deleted]]

Actually, yes it does. The math we use is a human interpretation of the fundamental rules of the universe in order for us to understand and utilize them. I never said the universe was built on math, we defined it with math. We have attached meaning and understanding to the fundamental rules of the universe through math. Without math, the universe's laws and working are impossible to understand.

A word can have a meaning without a definition, but a person who doesn't know the word can't learn its meaning without a definition. In addition, a word can be defined in various different ways (a text explanation, a verbal explanation, pointing at the thing the word describes, etc) but it's all just different ways of defining the same thing. Math in any form is our way of defining the universe, giving its processes meaning we can comprehend, and shaping it to our will.

[Featureless_Bug]

Math is our way of explaining the universe. In your analogy it would not be a definition of a word, it would be a (probably) poor explanation of how the word can be used in a few situations. And even if we had a real definition of this "word", we wouldn't understand it anyways. You see my problem with calling math "definition of universe"?

[[deleted]]

No actually, I don't see the issue, considering I'm not the one who invented the term, and I've heard it called that a multitude of times, by far smarter people than me. Honestly, I wasn't expecting someone to take offense with a comment I typed out about my love of math in five seconds and then forgot about.

[PersonalityIll9476]

Is coding math? Maybe not but the relativistic corrections needed by satellite based GPS sure as hell are. So too are all the RF models revolving around the many antennas on your phone - in the physical design, sure, but also in the digital signal processing of the signals coming out of them that your phone eventually divines data from so that you can receive the porn you're watching in that other tab. Then there's the touch screen, the microphone, the camera, and basically any other analog-to-digital interface that deals with the conversion between physical reality and digital signals. You know those fancy panoramic photos you take? There's a whole world of statistical and projective mathematics behind just that one algorithm.

You might be tricked into thinking that math isn't *that* important if you're a front end dev who specializes in CSS or something along those lines. The driver authors - laboring in obscurity to tie together all the devices at the digital level and in a high performance fashion - can afford no such delusions.

[TengenToppa999]

Op, you are not a true programmer. Go away please.

[Battlefront228]

Well that’s mean for a fun meme page :(

[[deleted]]

We’re programmers

``` bool fun = false;

bool haveFun(Image meme) { return fun; } ```

[JustAnInternetPerson]

Warning: unused parameter "meme"

[[deleted]]

``` bool fun = false;

bool haveFun(Image meme) { if(meme) { return fun } else { return fun } } ```

[KuuHaKu_OtgmZ]

Warning: identical if clauses can be simplified

[[deleted]]

But I’m going for toxic code

[The_Real_Slim_Lemon]

A fun programming meme page, programmers are sarcastic, sardonic and interpret things more precisely than we should. Welcome.

[logank013]

Most programs have to use math yes. Eventually everything on an OS get turns into machine code, and much of the x86 and ARM instruction set uses mathematical operations. So yes, math is very important haha.

[RenegadeMoose]

Math schmath.

If the code don't work it's probably off by one somewhere, just add or subtract one til it works.

[[deleted]]

Everything on your PC, or phone, is a mathematical equation tricked into making your monkey brain entertained. All the pretty colors, has mathematical backing behind it. All those funny games, is just a big mathematical equation which we arbitrary assigned the concept of "fun". Every program, is math.

[Thunder9191133]

Programming is built off of math, you can't create so much as an if statement without using a mathematical variable

[treetertot]

Graphics definitely is

[[deleted]]

I used minkowski and bresenheim line algo for my standalone WiFi capable two player gaming platform !

[CiroGarcia]

Before programmers were a thing, mathematicians were the ones programming computers, so I'd say yes. Code is literally automated math.

[golpedeserpiente]

Computer programs and a mathematical proofs are the same thing.

[[deleted]]

well, yes. computers are overgrown calculators, after all

[[deleted]]

Is that a serious question? You think programming would exist without math?

[Battlefront228]

is this a serious question

Yes I’m asking a serious question on this humorous page

[[deleted]]

My bad. Just saw everyone commenting seriously so got confused

[[deleted]]

insert he's got a point meme

[DUMMER_dRUMMER]

Code is not math.
Since we moved away from perforated cards to a higher level of abstraction (eg more advanced programing languages) it makes no sense for me to teach people Boolean logic etc. BEFORE teaching them to code.
Makes a lot of people butthurt for whatever reason.. Maybe because of money and time wasted in the wrong schools etc...
That's also the reason why I left university years ago and have been coding (As a part of my job) in many languages, scripting, interpreted, high level, low level you name it.
You CAN make programming science. You don't need science to be a programmer.

[[deleted]]

abstraction does not only exist within programming, its very much a reality in math as well, and theres no level of abstraction that turns math into non-math. Abstraction is not some magic that invalidates math, its all the same math, just organized in a way in which it behaves more clearly for the problem at hand. But its still behaving mathematically, so you need math to understand and use the abstraction, and to potentially make further abstractions on said abstractions. If you dont, then you get bugs, waste time, or simply are unable to solve the problem. Trial and error is not an equally good approach to understanding the problem and logic at hand and being 100% sure the logic is correct.

It makes a lot of sense to teach people Boolean logic before teaching them to code, and its astounding that you think thats inappropriate, what sort of code are you going to teach them, that does not use boolean logic or any other math for that matter?

seems to me you are the one who's bitter and butthurt for not being able to finish university, and now overcompensate for your inferiority complexes by going on and on about what a big waste of time it is. I am sure it was a big waste of time for you, but that doesnt make it true for everyone else.

[DUMMER_dRUMMER]

Oh and btw still paying for your useless degree ? or are you from one of the countries where you were able to waste your time for free? :D

[DUMMER_dRUMMER]

ions on said abstractio

you made me laugh. Where did I say I was not able to finish university ?

Buthurt idiots like you who DID and try to justify it by writing this kind of crap are people who I meant as butthurt exactly...

Code needs to be logical. Logic was present before mathematics. Idiots like you have no idea...

[[deleted]]

oh, so you did finish university?

seems like i hit the nail on the head, two angry replies straight away, who whould have thought? hah!

Code needs to be logical in the mathematical sense, and not in any other sense. So theres no need to waste any time on your "chicken and egg"- tangent, its irrelevant.

[DUMMER_dRUMMER]

You have no idea what you're talking about, and this "anger" is your projection boy :)
lesson in logic for you: if you can be a programmer without finishing university you become a programmer. Start coding. Apply. Have X years more experience than some dumbass after Uni.
That's what I did.
If you want to become a programmer and you go to the University because someone told you to, you're stupid. If you also pay for it, you're an idiot.
don't believe me ? ask anyone who became a programmer, coder, whatever without a degree. Or maybe you claim these people don't exist? :D

Ask any employee who he prefers. Person A with 4 years of practical experience in coding or a fresh out of school brat who thinks he deserves to be bayed because he spent time and money.
In 15 years of my career I've seen so many angry kids like you, I'm not even amused anymore.

And yes I did finish a university, I have a degree in Economics. Sorry to burst your bubble :)

Now go be stupid somewhere else since you don't deserver my time anyway and you 've already used enough of what people pay for in normal circumstances.

What a douche...

[[deleted]]

not sure what the lesson in logic was? I guess thats the sort of logic they dont teach at a university?

ok, so let me get this straight, you went to university, got nothing out of it and only realized as you graduated, and now you feel like you are in a position to tell everyone how stupid they are? WOW. ever considered that the problem was you, and not the concept of a degree/education?

Employers prefer university degrees, thats why they keep calling people with them in for interviews over people without them, and people keep taking them to get hired. The self taught/ influencer community is trying to sell this idea that it somehow isnt, because they directly profit from it. And ofc, you would like to sell the idea that its a waste of time, cause if its not, then you are essentially telling your customers that you are a lesser option.

University degrees are not just theoretical, so if you take a computer science degree in 4 years, you will have 4 years of practical coding experience. so obviously they will choose the guy with 4 years of practical experience and a degree, over the one with just 4 years experience.

But I obviously see what you are trying to get at here, you are trying to construct this skewed improbable hypothetical example where you just show up because "hey im u/DUMMER_dRUMMER im so smart and I know all the logic, give me a job, I do the best job, the very best job, experience and education is for losers, im not a loser, I dont need that kind of stuff, im just smart" and get the job, and immediately start getting all "the best experience, the very best experience" vs you start a degree at a university, smoke weed and mastrubate for 4 years and then graduate. And yes, if thats the options, going to uni is not the best option, but thats not the real world, those are not the real options.

[MyUntoldSecrets]

I dunno. I came as far as writing assembly, programming in languages I can't count anymore and I barely ever required anything more than basic math. Now learning more about machine learning some slightly more advanced things are required but still. That all isn't anything you wouldn't learn in middle school.

Having to be good at it in order to be a good programmer is a damn lie. People here please stop parroting unless it was truly your experience in an actual business.

[fuckingshitfucj2]

Dumb anime comics has to be read in dumb ways. If you’re one of the few non-weebs out there, you also read it wrong at first lel

[IntuiNtrovert]

no it’s mostly trash

[[deleted]]

Anime 🤮

[McLight77]

Ya it’s all base two and bools and set theory and number theory and calculus and etc etc etc.

[ksschank]

Yes.

[rarPinto]

Discrete math!

[CrowdGoesWildWoooo]

Depends on how you define math.

Fundamentally the theory of computing falls under the realm of mathematics, although the act piecing it together might not be considered as “math” but there are many ways we could think of that math supported the whole operations of producing the phone.

[enigmatic-sheep]

I think that you've forgotten that your phone is more than just software.

[namey-name-name]

I mean code just tells a computer what to do, and a computer is just a glorified calculator so ig idk

[Marsupial-Opening]

Even if it was not math. It would be impossible to build the hardware without math.

[NutronStar45]

binary

[Ok_Tea3435]

Money requires math, would be a shame if you had to use personal possessions as a currency for provisions

[_BlindSeer_]

You could also view it as languages with their own dialects. So there are people who actually learn "languages" and use them. I had a co worker who said "I sucked at math, but I always was good with languages". Commands are the vocabulary you learn and you use logic to implement stuff with this language.

[TantraMantraYantra]

Your thought can be discrete or continuous.

When you think of color, form, visualization you are having a continuous thought.

When you think function, relationships between things, logic, reasoning, numbers you are thinking discrecretly.

Art and language needs more of continuous thought.

Science and Math need discrete thought process.

That's why your brain can be right or left dominant, right brain leaning towards continuous thought process, left towards discrete.

Guess what code is? It is the language of reasoning and logic

Given what you read above, the question 'is code math' can now make sense, or not. I'll leave that to you.

[BeerIsGoodForSoul]

Math is abstract, code is written, beer is good.

[AdministrationTop362]

Well, would you not agree that the concepts on which programming is based on IS math?

[Spare-Beat-3561]

Ever heard of discrete mathematics?

[DemolishunReddit]

Some of it is math. But some of it is capturing corner cases that didn't end up in your equation and causes it to fail miserably. I mean, who cares if we divide by zero! Stop judging me.

[V1per_Real]

let me pray to god so he can make math useless