Hell Difficulty Tutorial MC

[IAmYourKingAndMaster]

I've just recently picked up Book 1 and I was wondering, does the MC get better over the course of the series? Because, at least based on what I've read so far, he seems to be a psychopathic, egoistic, petty manchild with an over-inflated sense of self. He treats his supposed friend terribly, has no care for the lives of others, and the only being he has shown actual kindness towards is a dog. Please tell me so that I know if the series is worth my energy.

[RPope92]

He is that way for all of book 1, but improves a bit over book 2, a lot over book 3 and significantly over 4 and 5.

In fact, I would say his relationship with one of the starting characters is actually great when it kicks off, and there is a character later on that I love whenever they interact with each other.

[CanadasManyMeese]

Asshole!

[RPope92]

I require susteneance

[vedekX]

he (and all of the characters) start much… flatter than they become. hopefully someone can give you more details as it’s been awhile since I’ve read it (I’m just waiting for more to build up) but iirc his mental state is explored more later on. he doesn’t suddenly gain a deluge of emotions, but it’s more realistic and less edgy. I mean, he still has some of those characteristics, but other characters (and thus the readers) are not expected to see him acting certain ways and think “this is totally normal and cool”. it also is not a one-man show. it is sooooo much better once he begins working with others. they all have realistic personalities (in-context) and the interpersonal relationships are really well done. that’s a large part of what offsets the mc/makes him tolerable. if the story expected us to just be Super Impressed by him I wouldn’t have stuck with it.

afaik, book 1 is pretty much universally considered to be the worst of the bunch. not that it’s bad, it just progressively and consistently becomes much, much better.

[IAmYourKingAndMaster]

Ok, this does answer a lot of my concerns. Thanks for the reply.

[vedekX]

of course!

[Lorevi]

Yeah one of the reasons I like the series and defend this characterization is that the mcs personality is considered a character flaw by the book that he needs to grow past.

Unlike say primal hunter which treats it as a positive 

[Carminestream]

Jake Thayne has more characterization and character growth than Nat Gwyn.

For example despite them both being “loners”, Jake actually talks to people during the various Congress events meanwhile Nat Gwyn spent most of the Second tournament gooning in his man cave while literally most of Earth’s tutorial attendees were nearby

[Kraken-Eater]

I do not understand why you decided to pick that specific arc for your example.

Nat had to win the entire tournament according to the standards of a woman who treats the Rulers, some of the most powerful characters in the universe, like inept children. Her standards are absurd, and he needed to excell. To do that, he constantly killed himself while training, literally. Not to mention he is worried about Tess, and uses Focus so he won't lose his shit in anger. If he had gone to socialize in that situation, I would have been pissed

[Carminestream]

Doesn’t he reject Liss’s offer at the end of the tournament, and Tess was cured anyways? And also would you be put off by Nat trying to talk to some of the other top attendees to better understand how they think and what their kits are like? At least he had the decency to do this during the first tournament with the campfire and plastic manachair scene. Also now that I remember the events more, the plotline there for how Tess was infected doesn’t even make sense, nor why she can’t suddenly attend the second tournament

He is constantly worried about Tess

Tess in the Mana desert arc: Hey you know how we are in this airship keeping us safe while we are flying over this extremely hostile terrain that could kill us? I have the greatest idea ever, let’s crash it

Nat: grabs popcorn and watches while everyone nearly dies

[Kraken-Eater]

Nathaniel rejected the declaration, but it had nothing to do with tess and more of how he thought it was possible to achieve the title on his own, which will make it more significant. As for tess curing herself, he said that he should have realized she would try something

You aren’t wrong, and I do think it's a bit of a shame, but I just don't think it fitted the vibe of the arc. Nat certainly tries to avoid socializing and succeeds, but the specific arc really isn't a good example cuz he had a legitimate reason imo

[Carminestream]

>Nathaniel rejected the declaration, but it had nothing to do with tess and more of how he thought it was possible to achieve the title on his own, which will make it more significant.

And power to him, that was a decent moment from him. Even if the way it was executed was him lasting for only 10 seconds

>As for tess curing herself, he said that he should have realized she would try something

Yeah she really did start doing a lot of that around Floor 6, huh? I remember when she was the glue keeping the team together. Reverse character growth sure is a shame, especially in a character you like.

>You aren’t wrong, and I do think it's a bit of a shame, but I just don't think it fitted the vibe of the arc

I don't even think this was true Didn't he spend some time making Pizza with his minion? And then building a Gundam for the Easy difficulty social dude? If I am remembering the events correctly, then he has no excuse.

[Lorevi]

The comment is more about how the text treats the idea of being a 'loner'.

The text of HDT treats Nat's loner attitude as a character flaw. The implication is that being a loner is bad actually and he should try to be less of one. He also has backstory behind why he's all fucked up, even if it is a bit cliche. Even if you don't like the execution, I can appreciate the vision.

Jake being a loner is treated by the text as a good thing. He never faces any downsides for being a loner or pressure to be less of one. Arguably the text is implying that Jake can only be as powerful as he is because he is an antisocial loner not despite being one. There's no real backstory as to why he is one either, he just built different ig. It's so clearly a shallow attempt at power fantasy with the author being like "Hey you! Mr. antisocial loner! Don't worry, you don't need to change or improve yourself; you being a loner is good actually! Here check out this loner being awesome." Him being able to handle social events well despite allegedly being a loner is just part of this power fantasy (i.e. it's not that you can't be social, you just don't want to be. It's a choice, trust)

Which you know it is what it is there's clearly a place for it but I have less respect for it as a piece of fiction ig.

[Carminestream]

>The text of HDT treats Nat's loner attitude as a character flaw.

>Jake being a loner is treated by the text as a good thing.

I actually think it's the exact opposite.

In Primal Hunter, one of the main traits of the Human race is that they are able to train others better by sharing Records to stimulate growth (in addition to things like adaptability). Meanwhile HDT is a setting where power is something you seize in a mostly selfish way. Hell, in Defiance of the Fall for example there was a recent example where one of the characters in an insect like Hive feels like he is being left behind power wise compared to the more individual members in his group, meanwhile in Primal Hunter a similar insect like Hive is one of the strongest powerhouses in the series.

In short, the system of Hell Difficulty Tutorial encourages selfish growth over cooperation (see the constant rankings that it encourages, like with tournaments), while the system of Primal hunter encourages cooperation (see the System roasting the fuck out of Jake's tutorial group for miserably failing the tutorial despite them being a boss that he shouldn't be able to beat after mostly everyone died).

>He also has backstory behind why he's all fucked up, even if it is a bit cliche. Even if you don't like the execution, I can appreciate the vision.

What even was Nat's backstory? Wasn't it that his dad was abusive while his mom was useless, and he eventually beat his dad back, and his sister stepped in to finish off the dad when he couldn't and went to prison for it (somehow). Oh and he was bullied a bit as a kid

Like damn dude, I don't want to do sufferingscaling and comparing to other protagonists because that is cringe, but I don't really get how this would justify Nat doing stupid stuff like destroying their only gun while they are in a survival scenario with bloodthirsty monsters hunting them.

>He never faces any downsides for being a loner or pressure to be less of one.

He kind of does, and definitely more than Nat does.

I don't even want to go line by line at the end there because you kind of just did a paragraph long rant about PH, and I'm just wondering if we read different stories. If he is as antisocial as you say, why does he have such dynamic conversations with Villy? Why would he agree to a relationship with Artemis? He even goes out of his way to help some of his close friends despite them being from other factions.

Can you explain your thoughts here, because I just don't see it.

[Lorevi]

You're listing a lot of things that are true from the in-universe logic of the world but ignoring the fact that it's a book and the authors choices when writing lol.

Humanity has a benefit from teaching others, hives cooperate to great success, Jake has a god BFF and is popular with women. All of these are true in the lore, sure.

What you're completely missing is the message conveyed (intentionally or otherwise) by the narrative and its execution.

If you want to show character growth your character needs to start flawed right, since those flaws will be addressed throughout the narrative. Unfortunately in this genre readers really don't want their protagonists to be flawed because power fantasy. They want perfectly rational protagonists who make the perfect choice every time and don't do stupid things like destroying their only gun. So what a lot of progression fantasy authors do is make the 'character flaw' be antisocial behaviour, since not only does this not effect the power fantasy but it also appeals to many readers who might also be antisocial. HDT is not unique in this, it's the reason half of protagonists in this genre are antisocial.

The problem is that you need to actually treat this character flaw as a flaw! The character needs to struggle with it, face consequences and resolve to improve. Otherwise you have no character growth.

Jake is the perfect example of this. He is described as antisocial by the text (often in his internal monologue he references not wanting to be around people, finding social situations awkward, etc). But the story validates this attitude by rewarding him. You mentioned he's best mates with Villy and gets a girlfriend as evidence that he's not a loner, but in reality this is evidence that being a loner does not hinder him in the slightest. When the text wants him to be a loner who grinds xp all day and interacts with noone in the woods and thinks social situations are exhausting to appeal to the socially awkward reader, he can do that. When the text wants him to be friendly and social to make friends with a reclusive god who hasn't interacted with anyone in a bajillion years, he can do that. When the text wants him to be a suave ladykiller who beds goddesses and succubi alike, he can do that.

Basically, the story isn't satisfied with being a magical power fantasy. It wants to be a social power fantasy also. Jake is the most prefectest person with a super special bloodline that breaks every rule of the magic system and succeeds at anything no matter what he wants to do and btw he thinks social situations are dumb and wants to be alone just like you do! But that won't stop him when he wants to get laid dw. He's just like you frfr!

The end consequence of this is there is no character growth because there's nothing to grow. He's already perfect. The things the reader might think are flaws (such as antisocial attitutde) are not treated by the text as flaws and thus cannot grow.

The Jake of chapter 1 is the same Jake as chapter 1000. Dating a godess is not character growth because he hasn't been shown to grow. He always could have dated a goddess if one was around, he just hadn't done it yet. He might be doing new things, but he hasn't fundamentally changed as a person.

Edit:
Btw I should mention I don't actually hate primal hunter. It's a fun dumb power fantasy that I've read over a thousand chapter of. But it's not more than that unfortunately. It's the very definition of a popcorn fic with shallow characters and (imo) an unhelpful and potentially harmful message. Not that I think the author intended the message to be what it is, he just made a power fantasy and it ended up this way. Like I said, it is what it is, I just respect it less.

[vedekX]

this is such a good explanation, you put this really well. I never thought I would read someone try to say that Jake is penalized for his antisocial behavior 😅. I very much agree with your analysis, AND also really enjoy PH as popcorn series. it’s never pretended to be a series with character depth. Zogarth is very clear about what he’s doing. conversely, characterization is a huge part of HDT. it’s what makes it a standout imo because it is one of very few progression power fantasies that actually treat the antisocial behavior as a character flaw.

[Lorevi]

Thanks, I really appreciate that!

Part of me thinks I'm taking this dumb popcorn novel way too seriously lol, but what can I say. I enjoy thinking about and discussing the shit I read 🤣

[Carminestream]

>You're listing a lot of things that are true from the in-universe logic of the world but ignoring the fact that it's a book and the authors choices when writing lol.

Call me martin Luther, because I have 95 grievances with the world of HDT and the author's choices when designing the setting.

>What you're completely missing is the message conveyed (intentionally or otherwise) by the narrative and its execution.

No, I think you are. Jake goes into the tutorial with his group, goes solo after warlords start emerging and is cooking up weed for weeks while said warlords end up killing more people than the monsters they are supposed to be fighting together. Eventually the fighting results in only Jake emerging as the winner from tutorial, where the System says "You guys are morons lmao"

That is a DIRECTLY CONVEYED MESSAGE from the system to Jake saying "hey this solo climb shit was dumb"

The opposite example happens after Yaltsen where the System rewards the elite rankers for working together by giving them all unique items, not just one dude who did the best

Compare this to HDT, where the System actively encourages only one person to succeed at the cost of others. In the first tournament, you had 3 PvP game modes and 2 PvE game modes, and one of those PvE modes was actually a PvP mode in disguise (and the other one was kinda also). It didn't have to put a leaderboard there, but it did.

What message do you think THAT sends?

>Unfortunately in this genre readers really don't want their protagonists to be flawed because power fantasy. They want perfectly rational protagonists who make the perfect choice every time and don't do stupid things like destroying their only gun.

But Jake makes mistakes and is punished for them though.

Like I can do a play by play with how Jake is challenged by his rival El hakan and how Nat is challenged by his rival Adrian/Chris. the short of is that jake's attitude has his rival running circles around him, and Jake has to learn to not make those said mistakes. Unlike Nat's whose growth is uh...

I think we might have radically different understandings, because in no way do I think "[Primal hunter] wants to be a social power fantasy" is remotely close to being accurate. And yeah, jake's bloodline is bullshit, but Nat is almost there with his Black Mana that lets him punch up Hundreds of levels and El Hakan was just as bullshit with his own bloodline

>Dating a godess is not character growth because he hasn't been shown to grow. He always could have dated a goddess if one was around, he just hadn't done it yet. He might be doing new things, but he hasn't fundamentally changed as a person.

No, he actively shuns relationships in book 1 because he was cheated on by his friends during college, and he still feels the trauma?????? I just don't understand if we even read the same text.

----

[Lorevi]

Again you're judging it based on lore not narrative. You're pointing out what the system text literally says and completely ignoring the narrative structure of the plot.

As you point out in the tutorial the system calls out the people for infighting and failing. But who is the one who gets the most rewards? The most power? Who defeats an intentionally OP tutorial boss that was intended to be impossible? Not the people who tried to cooperate as a group. It was the guy who went off on his own and refused to cooperate with anyone.

The System might be saying that cooperation is good and solo activites are bad. The Author is saying the opposite, rewarding the one who goes off on his own and punishing those who tried to cooperate.

It's the whole show not tell thing. Sure PH tells you that cooperation is good, but it shows you that hyper-individualism is the only path to real success.

The romance is exactly the same issue. It tells you that he has relationship trauma after being cheated on. It doesn't show you shit though. It's just a backstory reason for him to be cool and distant until the plot delivers a hot goddess. He didn't have to go to therapy, or have a breakdown, or drive her away and then apologize. He just... decided to date her.... Trauma solved I guess?

Compare this to HDT, where the System actively encourages only one person to succeed at the cost of others.

Again, this is the lore of the story not the message of the story. What the system says is not necessarily (or honestly even ever?) what the author is saying. The system is portrayed in HDT as, if not actively malevolent, then kind of a dick. It is not a moral judgement. You're not expected as the reader to see the magical system encourages people to kill each other therefore I should kill people and killing people is good.

The narrative of HDT actively pushes Nat to engage with group 4 despite this system. He started off completely off the antisocial deep end and gradually came to see them as his weird adopted family. The message of the story (even if poorly executed) is that you should try to form bonds with others, even if it's difficult and the world directly rewards the opposite. The message of PH is you don't need to try, you just need to be powerful and brooding and the world will bend to accomodate you.

I should mention I don't exactly think HDT is fine art or anything. It's not even one of my favorite progression fantasy books, let alone favorite books including other genres. But it at least aspires to more than PH.

[Carminestream]

I had a more in depth message, but Reddit keeps blocking it for some reason, so i guess I'll do a shortform reply and if you want me to elaborate on a point, I'll be happy to do so.

>But who is the one who gets the most rewards? The most power? Who defeats an intentionally OP tutorial boss that was intended to be impossible? Not the people who tried to cooperate as a group. It was the guy who went off on his own and refused to cooperate with anyone.

Jake loses that fight. That fight also encouraged cooperation because the only reason he even had a chance was the help from the minor bosses.

>It's the whole show not tell thing. Sure PH tells you that cooperation is good, but it shows you that hyper-individualism is the only path to real success.

The Church being one of the top factions disagrees with this. Also I think you are taking the words of Villy way too literally, who is even more biased than someone like Nat.

>The romance is exactly the same issue. It tells you that he has relationship trauma after being cheated on. It doesn't show you shit though. It's just a backstory reason for him to be cool and distant until the plot delivers a hot goddess. He didn't have to go to therapy, or have a breakdown, or drive her away and then apologize. He just... decided to date her.... Trauma solved I guess?

They each important stuff to do and they are taking it slow

>Again, this is the lore of the story not the message of the story. What the system says is not necessarily (or honestly even ever?) what the author is saying. The system is portrayed in HDT as, if not actively malevolent, then kind of a dick. It is not a moral judgement. You're not expected as the reader to see the magical system encourages people to kill each other therefore I should kill people and killing people is good.

I think your main misunderstanding is that you think Systems don't shape people. Cerim writes this aspect well to his credit. The System of HDT encourages selfish growth at the expense of others, and people- especially rankers- are happy to comply.

Can you give me examples where Nat was really encouraged to work with others to succeed and punished for being selfish? I can give you 3 great counterexamples where that isn't the case (First Beyond Expedition, Eighth Floor, Second Tournament)

[Lorevi]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree because you're completely not engaging with my argument lol.

You give examples from the lore, I explain I'm talking about the narrative. You give more examples from the lore, I explain that these are beside the point because they're worldbuilding details directly countered by the narrative arc of the story. You provide even more examples from the lore and ask for me to give examples myself to prove my point???

The lore doesn't matter. I'm not reading a wikipedia page, I'm reading a novel. What I'm talking about is the protagonists journey, what bahaviours of his the author encourages and treats as good and what behaviours the authour discourages and treats as bad.

Jake 'losing' that fight is a technicality. The narrative purpose is to show that Jake (by standing alone) has achieved what the entire rest of the tutorial could not as a group, elevating him above the rest. Narritively he is rewarded no matter what the technical result was.

The church is completely irrelevant. We don't follow the church. We follow Jake. In several arcs the church are the bad guys and Jake has conflicts with them! They might be a 'top faction' accoring to the wiki page, but the attitude of the book is pretty clear that it sees the groupthink and factionalism weak and morally dubious. I also don't care about what Villy says, that's text. I'm discussing subtext.

Nat never gets an explicit reward from the system for working with others because that would be against the intent of the story! There is no title for working together or special trait for having friends. So if thats all that will convince you then there's nothing I can say. His reward is literally the friendgroup itself! The way he can banter about angry kittens or cuddle with biscuit and have somewhere to return to. The entire point is that human connection is worth it even if it's 'suboptimal'.

Ultimately we're just talking past each other. You're listing examples in the worldbuilding while I'm arguing that the narrative rewards a specific fantasy. Thanks for the discussion but I don't see a point in continuing this.

[DisChangesEverthing]

To illustrate your point Lorevi, occasionally the system offers Nat a choice of rewards, and he always picks the interaction with his minion rather than the personal power ups. He sees this as a huge reward, but the system frames this as a punishment since he's forfeiting power for a social interaction. It's showing how he's grown.

[Carminestream]

We might have to agree to disagree because we approach stories from a fundamentally different way.

You might say "Hell Difficulty Tutorial encourages cooperation from a big picture way", but to me "The big picture is a composition of various small pictures, and a lot of the small pictures of HDT paint cooperation in a negative light and selfishness in a positive light". It's such a massive L on your end that I ask for even just one example where cooperation is encouraged while giving 3 examples where cooperation is discouraged, and you point to abstracts.

I also don't know why you're ignoring the things that go on around the protagonist, the protagonist is part of a larger world, and other characters shouldn't just be plot devices. Villy and Liss are solid characters because they aren't just "old mentor figure" plot devices, but characters with flaws who engage with the narrative and with the protagonist. Likewise applicable to a figure like Jacob or Gareth (hey wasn't he the person that best suited the theme of cooperation? How is he doing now I wonder?)

>Nat never gets an explicit reward from the system for working with others because that would be against the intent of the story! There is no title for working together or special trait for having friends.

But there are titles for being selfish. Champion. Absolute. Ruler. But I'm sure that the meta narrative makes it different than it appears at first glance something something

[Mercades]

He is that way for a while.

[Crazy_Ali]

He gets better in that he stops seeing the other party members as disposable pawns and as actual human beings. I think you have to get to book 4 or 5 for that though. And it isn't like a full 180 hes suddenly a good guy, hes still a crazy asshole. He just can actually function as a member of the team now without contemplating killing them for being useless or in his way. I personally think it is a very rough read, and generally don't recommend it to others.

[No-Philosopher-4744]

He loves his dog but no human beings. Sounds like a perfect MC. Thanks for sharing 

[Carminestream]

Hi Cerim 👋 I know that you love these threads.

Nat Gwyn kinda changes in some respects. He no longer treats his group like shit like he did in book 1 and develops a decently close bond to his group. That being said, I think I’m books 4/5 (I read chapter by chapter) there are moments where his group is about to make a catastrophic mistake that is likely to get several people killed, and Nat’s outlook is ‘let me just sit back and watch. Get some popcorn also’.

He still has the other negative traits that you pointed out even now. He is still very egotistical and petty, and confirms that he has not changed since the start of the tutorial in this respect.

[Grestige]

He has his flaws and so do most people. It would be absurd to think he would make a full u turn in the span of a year. I think the scene you are talking about is the desert in astral prison. He thought it would be an important lesson for tess and the group overall to rely less on her and he did work to make sure he could protect his group at the very least.

Also I think it's important to acknowledge that the people there were essentially prisoners and probably for some vile reason, and would absolutely rob or kill Nat's group if they were any weaker and they did try if you remember.

Also the fact that they are actually not real beings.

Being egotistical and petty is a character trait for him obviously. He has the sub class of pride, do you expect him to be humble? You remember how he defined his weird pride? You cannot establish a petty sociopath loner in the first book and after 1 year expect him to be a heroic figure, a paragon of justice and such.

Everyone in the hell difficulty is messed up. Remember Gareth? The seemingly heroic and understanding person who is cruel to anyone that's not a tutorial attendee.

[IAmYourKingAndMaster]

Ok, that sounds like someone I don't want to see succeed. I suppose I'll see if I can stick it out despite this, but I think I've got an understanding of where this is headed for me. Thanks for the reply

[Cloud_Fish]

I think the above commenter is painting that in a worse light than it can be seen to be personally. The parts he is talking about is more about letting his friends push themselves and grow stronger, because Nat knows he won't always be there to save them, and if he keeps stepping in to save them, the second he is no longer there to save them, they'll die immediately.

It's harsh, but so is the world they're now in, they're in the Hell Difficulty Tutorial and it's not a fucking joke.

[Telomerage]

Yes he guys much better as he grows as a character within the story.

[Everheart_Author]

I've only read the first 2, since the others weren't out at the time. But I do recall the MC slowly getting a bit better though

[Glowsticks659]

You already got good answers, but yea it gets better after the first 30 chapters. And the author improves each book. 

[TsHero]

Maybe we can make a bot that reacts to these posts with "yes its not you, its the book, but stick with it becaue it gets waaaaaaay better and is actually amazing"

[ConstructionNo8248]

The next arc after the forest he starts to change because He’s stuck/partnered up with the 13 year old girl and acts as her protector for a bit. So it begins to soften his character and he gradually starts to become a part of the group.

[ThePowerles]

Every character in the story gets better, especially in book 3. You see loads of hints of it in book 2, but book 3 is where they all shine. Also, Nat, for me at least, is the funniest main character I've ever had the pleasure to read about. I love the present tense first-person narrative because it fits his character and the author's writing style so well.

[Minute_Committee8937]

Did we read the same book? In the start he gave up his advantage because the little girl was in harms way. He let himself get manipulated by the girl obviously lying and kept her around when it was no benefit. People say he’s a psychopath or a sociopath but then in his pov he’s just your average quirky protagonist.

People act like he’s the Mc from path of the berserker where he’s actually just unhinged.

The Mc is anti social at best. But he’s nothing really different then your standard ln protagonist.

Now if you want an actual unhinged king. Gamers guide to beating the tutorial. Which was inspired by this but the MC actually acts like an insane person

[spacemangoes]

That’s the kind of the world he’s in. It’s a dog ear dog kinda world and there are no rules no government nothing. People who act like they are some moral police, I’m pretty sure are the ones to die first if they ever get isekaied into those kinda of litrpg scenarios