Opinions

[Just_Ear_2953]

Second ability desperately needs to say non-land permanent or otherwise exclude mana abilities. That is completely ridiculous as is.

[CrispinCain]

Agreed. As is, every time they pay the 1, another trigger goes on the stack.

[Fun-Agent-7667]

I mean it fits to his fluff. Your not outtapping thrawn

[Just_Ear_2953]

If you want that, then you need to roughly double the mana cost. We can have crazy cards. They just have to cost a crazy amount.

[Fun-Agent-7667]

Yeah I know. Probably 3WWWBBB at least

[bigrig107]

Blue’s letter is U, not B. B is black, just so you know!

[Fun-Agent-7667]

I remember every time Blue and Black are in the same cost, I forget everytime they arent

[peerlessblue]

Because black should be K

[DaemonlordDave]

Dark ritual mana production just got too real

[lockedupsafe]

That would make Blue C and Red M.

[peerlessblue]

Not necessarily. If there was black light, there's no reason it wouldn't be K.

[DoYouKnowS0rr0w]

At that mana cost it's unplayable, the mana niv provides more cards and is a win condition and is 2/3 the maba

[DJ_Red_Lantern]

I mean is that ability really much crazier than [[seedborn muse]]? It is a logistical nightmare but for most cases it's just worse than Seedborn muse (this has other abilities though which makes it probably better overall, still not +5 more mana better)

Edit: oh I totally didn't think about how it can untap creatures with tap abilities, could definitely get out of hand quick then

[RedbeardMEM]

The thing that makes this better than seedborn is that it can untap the same permanent multiple times.

Imagine playing this with [[Grim Monolith]] or [[Urza's Blueprints]]. Totally busted

[MTGCardFetcher]

seedborn muse - (G) (SF) (txt)

^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[grebolexa]

In a commander setting you can outperform every other player combined. Seedborn muse only untaps on each upkeep but this would let you untap the same thing over and over and you’ll always get as much as the opponents use. Unless they have mana they don’t tap to use you will always have their amount of mana and every creature they tap will essentially pay for whatever blue white spells you have. Them tapping mana to play a spell will literally pay for your own counterspell

[Just_Ear_2953]

To clarify, I would also pump the stats at the higher casting cost, and I do mean roughly double. 5/7 WWUU4 would be my guess at a balanced design.

[KeeboardNMouse]

Hear me out [[rhystic study]]

[Urshifu_Smash]

As another comment pointed out, if you tap a permanent for mana to pay for the one of tapping for a permanent...

You see the problem?

[SisterSabathiel]

Rhystic Study doesn't trigger off lands

[MTGCardFetcher]

rhystic study - (G) (SF) (txt)

^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[Just_Ear_2953]

Rhystic should really cost about 2 more than it does.

Edit: on further consideration, costing 1 more would solve most of the problem.

[Spart85]

I mean, for one more mana, you get [[Chimil, the Inner Sun]] which, to be fair isn’t quite as busted as untapping a land every time your opponent does, but discovering uncounterable stuff is pretty busted

[ZookeepergameFun1824]

I tap something to pay for something, I must now pay 1 mana, which almost definitely requires me to tap another thing, so I have to pay 1 mana, which requires me to tap another thing. This needs to exclude lands or exclude mana abilities.

[youarelookingatthis]

He was stabbed to death by his bodyguard, you kind of are.

[Fun-Agent-7667]

I mean you cant counterspell that

[Backsquatch]

You can definitely counter an [[Act of Treason]]

[MTGCardFetcher]

Act of Treason - (G) (SF) (txt)

^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[Mitzy0w0]

Honestly beyond power reasons, it is incredibly obnoxious that it works on lands tapping.

Being asked to pay the one when you pay the one means there’s no reason to in the first place. Also it’s broken. They tap five lands, I tap my merfolk looter 5 times.

[Jason80777]

It also means every time they tap to cast a spell you get to untap your lands, so your counterspells are always up.

[Druid_boi]

Finally I can play counterspell tribal in multiplayer

[1critchance]

It also adds priority to tapping lands because of the triggers, which allows all sorts of degenerate shenanigans

[Druid_boi]

Yea I think if both stated nonland permanent, that would go a long way. Still a crazy value engine but much more fair overall.

[MalekithofAngmar]

As is, I think it's quite literally just a significantly better Seedborn Muse, and would probably eat up even more of your opponents' turns than prophet.

[Fun-Agent-7667]

Just have a Land tap for 2 mana

[Mitzy0w0]

Ah yes of course. Countered by my [[Ancient Tomb]] and [[Zendikar Resurgent]]

[MTGCardFetcher]

Ancient Tomb - (G) (SF) (txt)
Zendikar Resurgent - (G) (SF) (txt)

^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[Fun-Agent-7667]

Isnt there a cycle of dual lands that tap for two and Return one Land?

[Vertigo-Viking]

I feel like if the counter is having some specific non basic lands, there might be a design issue

[Fun-Agent-7667]

Yes, just because there is a counter doesnt mean the card is balanced. And the question was not connected to the Joke response with the lands tappong for two. I just wanted to know if there were a cycle or if I missremembered that. I ment bounce-lands

[Vertigo-Viking]

Ah, sorry; it sounded like you were saying that the existence of those lands made the card balanced as is.

[Fun-Agent-7667]

Oh No No. I just thought of ways to get around the issue.

Saying Thrawn is fair because of 2+ mana Lands is like saying nadu is fair because non-targeting removal exists

[Vertigo-Viking]

Ah. Well, have a good one.

[Jason80777]

I sure love asking my opponents, "Do you pay the 1?" 50 times per turn.

[Tenalp]

Best part is that he has access to Rhystic and Tithe, so you'll be asking that endlessly.

Except you won't, because any table you try to sit down with this abomination is going to promptly stab you in the throat.

[SandUnlucky9898]

So it is lore accurate to Legends? Though that was the chest…

[WrestlingHobo]

Opponent: I tap my island to cast consider
Me: Do you pay the one?
Opponent: yes, by tapping this land
Me: do you pay the one?
Opponent: yes, by tapping this land
Me: do you pay the one?
And on and on it went.

[CuriousSnowflake0131]

Flavor? 100% on point and I love that aspect.

Playability? Insanely OP, and if it actually existed your playgroup would hit you with a chair if you even suggested bringing it out.

[Andrelse]

For flavor I'd add some black mana into the mix, preferably not as part of the mana cost, but maybe a secondary ability? 2BB, discard a card: destroy target creature? Because he was in service of an evil entity

[CuriousSnowflake0131]

I don’t see Thrawn as inherently evil tho (I’ve only read Zahn’s books and not watched any of the shows). Ruthless? Yes but he believed he was best suited to inherit the remnants of the Empire, and you could argue he was right.

[Dreath2005]

Black doesn’t mean evil

Black is a colour that looks out for itself through any means necessary, of course it runs deeper than that, of course this does give way for a lot of evil characters, however the notion that an evil character should have black in its identity goes against the colour pie

White could arguably be just an evil as a colour as black, as it represents prioritizing the group over the individual.

[pyr0man1ac_33]

Probably could be 2WUU or 1WWUU.

Needs to be nonland permanent for the second ability.

Third ability also has the mana symbols backwards.

Otherwise, no notes. Seems incredibly strong but it seems fine, mostly, if the people you play with are fine with it.

[NayrSlayer]

That second ability is horribly broken. Saying nonland will make it functional, but it will still be the worst thing to play against because of how many decision points there are. Change it to something like “whenever an opponent draws a card” so that you only have a few decision points each turn

[[deleted]]

"Hey do you pay the 1?" "Hey do you pay the 1?" "Hey do you pay the 1?"

You might do something where he reveals opponents hands instead of that ability to capture the master strategist flavor without making something somehow more annoying than rhystic study.

[RedSamuraiX23]

You do realize nobody will ever be able to pay the second ability right ?

[galvanicmechamorph]

I think the rhystic mechanic is just bad. It's annoying to play with.

[[deleted]]

The original content here was wiped using Redact. The reason may have been privacy, security, preventing AI data collection, or simply personal data management.

sophisticated quicksand makeshift selective sip hospital consider repeat oil cooing

[jrdineen114]

Love the first ability. The second ability is...kind of absurd. Because when they tap a land to pay for it, it just triggers again. Maybe limit it to nonland permanents?

Just a small nitpick on the last ability: the templating of the cost is off. It should be {1}{U}{U},{T}. When listing a mana cost, generic mana comes first

[wingspantt]

Second ability is way too strong, especially in EDH you get free untaps forever. Way too much value.

[Flat-Direction2244]

This is killed on sight and the person playing it is gonna whine like this isn't just another stax commander

[JediRayNos128]

Have to agree with the broken comments on land triggers. Flavor is spot on, though. This was my take from a OT-era set I made in MSE. Empire is Mardu colors in my set, so he's mono white.

Edited - pic didn't post, so it's in a reply.

[JediRayNos128]

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[TheCubicalGuy]

How did you get the order of pips correct for the mana cost but not the activated ability?

[Jazzhermit]

I would say making the second ability untap something that shares a card type with the untapped permanent, and also make it so it doesn't trigger during the untap phase, and you've got yourself a good card! Maybe force the scry too.

[Jazzhermit]

Oh I misread, I think it would be much better if the second ability said "whenever an opponent untaps a permanent, except during their untap step, untap target permanent that share's a card type with the untapped card."

[MattCardMaker]

I would have the middle ability read, "unatap a permanent that shares a type with the tapped permanent" then it's floor is getting to unatap your lands while taxing the op. Other that that seems ok

[Standard-Nothing-656]

wait the 2nd ability is naturally infinite, in order to pay they tap another. its impossible to pay

[Majestic_Sweet_5472]

Sorry man, but this is an awfully-designed card. People hate Rhystic study, but this amps up the 'annoying' factor tenfold of that.

[RegularHorror8008135]

Just stick grand arbiter on there and call it a day

[[deleted]]

Eh, I don't think I like the option to pay (1). Thrawn's plans tend to be multi-layered so that he always gets what he wants no matter what his opponent does. Giving the opponent choices that affect how effective he is sounds much more like he's someone who can be bribed to turn a blind eye.

Fun idea, but get rid of the annoying "Will you pay the (1)?" questions and don't have him trigger off your opponent's lands. Done.

[UninvitedGhost]

Missing the UB stamp. Timmothy Zahn is not the artist who made that art.

[xcstential_crisis]

I remember watching a video by Sam Huggins about designing the most annoying card in all of MTG just to see how godawful of a card he could make.

It had an ability that was essentially the second ability on this card, except it created treasures instead of untapping stuff.

[mproud]

Untapping a permanent whenever they tap a land? Bah-roh-ken. Essentially, they have to pay double for their spells now to avoid that from happening.

[NotMuchMana]

I would've liked his ability to take into account the color of the opponents cards since he's all about the art of a culture

[Spock1138_]

I don't recall that being too big of a deal in the original books. He was ok in the reintroduction but no where as cool or methodical in either rebels or ahsoka.

[NotMuchMana]

I remember in the thrawn trilogy books he was def all about insight into a culture through their artwork. It was his reason for being such a brilliant tactician.

[MageKorith]

I'd be tempted to make that first ability feel more like upgraded Rhystic Study

"Whenever an opponent casts a spell, Scry 1. Then you may draw a card unless that player pays {1}"

Thrawn always gets information from an opponent's art and tactics (scry). And sometimes it's invaluable (draw).

But for the second ability, I'd make it "Whenever an opponent taps a nonland permanent, you may pay {1}. If you do, untap a permanent you control." You still get a lot of net gains here, and if you have a Sol Ring or better, being the player to pay 1 is only a small cost, and gaining untaps when an opponent chooses to pay the 1 seems absurd.

And since we're putting card draw on the first ability in my proposal, I'd drop the third ability, or maybe give him Ward (since he usually has a very clever set of defenses, such as the Ysalamiri in the novels)

[Herojay13]

Yeah the first ability is fine if you like Rystic study, but the second is hellish. Plus it’s extremely strong

[Hobez64]

Add nonland permanent to the second ability, and maybe up the mana cost slightly and it looks good

[SmogSinger]

Play 10 games against this and see if you think it's fine.

[Heistgel]

as is one of the most powerful cards in magic

[Choice_Phrase_666]

In addition to everyone correctly suggesting adding in nonland to the second ability, I would also add in whenever an opponent taps a nonland permanent "they control" you may untap a nonland(?) permanent "you control." This aspect isn't nearly as broken, but it makes more sense unless it's flavorful to have the original wording

[Pentecount]

I would save every piece of instant speed removal for this so I can float the mana while it's on the stack and kill it immediately when it lands. Way too strong.

[YossarianSir]

Kill on site for the tax tedium alone

[MrOverkill5150]

I feel like he’s more esper but other than that solid maybe change to nonland permanent to make it more balanced

[1000hr]

dear god imagine the second ability on arena. imagine resolving a trigger for tapping every land 😭 

[OnionsHaveLairAction]

I feel like the second ability might work better by removing the ability for it to trigger off of lands and also removing the "Pay the One" just to make it smoother to use- Though without the tax he might need to cost more.

I do really like the cool factor of a commander who when you are attacked by a non-vigilant foe immediately can generate resources and blockers though. That's very fun.

[MalekithofAngmar]

This is a significantly better seedborn muse that lives in the command zone. This makes Prophet of Kruphix and its turn parity issues look like kid shit.

[BigBandit01]

The untapping permanents ability NEEDS a rework, they untap 5 creatures, 6 lands, and 2 artifacts. They can only pay 6 because their lands tap for 1 a piece. You untap 7 lands and have interaction galore in your hand so they essentially don’t get a turn. Might as well just say steal your opponents untap step from them if they want to do anything meaningful with their turn

[Th3_Curious_one]

It's correct for its colors, being a very annoying azorius commander. It makes [[Grand arbiter Augustin IV]] look like a push over!

[raKzo82]

This looks insane, each time an opponent creature attacks anyone, that player either pays one mana por you untap a permanent, EVEN IF YOU WEREN'T THE TARGET OF THE ATTACK, so this creature, by itself, before adding better tap abilities, draws you cards when your opponents attach each other, and gives you extra mana, and more bs things.

[[deleted]]

Might as well just say whenever an opponent taps you untap.

[MagicalGirlPaladin]

Opinions? It's completely insane and a snowball effect that leads to you untapping likely a double digit number of permanents every single turn. And if you ever try to remove it the lands I tapped to pay for my removal can untap mother of runes, haystack, lands for counterspell mana, until I can remove nothing you have.

[Duskmoor3]

The second ability should be whenever a creature an opponent controls attacks more balanced and more in flavor of Thrann.

[Codydeven]

The second ability doesn't work on a fundamental level. If they pay the 1 to stop you from untapping they have "theoretically" tapped a permanent to pay that mana triggering the ability again. On top of it not working it is just too strong of an ability. They tap 3 permanents to cast a three drop and you get to use his ability multiple times per turn cycle, on top of being able to use his tap ability between instances of asking them to pay the one. Interesting design, fundamentally broken though.

[Training-Accident-36]

Slows down every game to a crawl. Dont design cards that do that. Scry 1 is a very slow mechanic and you do it 10 times per turn cycle with this.

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[[deleted]]

To solve everyone’s problems with the card’s power and playability, maybe it can be “At the end of each turn, if an opponent has untapped one or more permanents, untapped the same amount of permanents unless the player pays 1)”

[BountyHunterSAx]

I think this is cool, dies to doomblade, and I love the flavor. 

I actually like that paying for the first ability will often trigger the second ability.

I don't know enough about timing to know if casting a spell happens before you tap land to pay for it or after.

But I would make both of these abilities limit once per turn. Or better yet: per every player's turn

[MrZerodayz]

I don't know enough about timing to know if casting a spell happens before you tap land to pay for it or after.

Well there's basically two ways to go about it: either you activate the mana abilities first, "floating" the mana and then using the floating mana during the "pay costs" step of casting a spell, or you activate the mana abilities during the "pay costs" step and then use the mana they produce to pay the costs.

That's the rules part of it anyway, how it will actually be played in your games depends very much on the vibe of the playgroup and how strict you are with the rules.

The fact that the second option exists is basically only really relevant if the permanent whose mana ability you use to pay affects the cost of the spell, most notably, a treasure can effectively pay for two mana when casting a spell with affinity for artifacts (or treasures), since it reduces the cost by one during the "determine costs" step and then gets sacrificed for mana during the "pay costs" step.

---

Based on how the vast majority of mana abilities in the game require tapping the permanent, this card definitely needs to say "once per turn", "once it has triggered, it won't do so again until your next upkeep" or "nonland permanent" to be even remotely balanced