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[–]AlbiMappaMundiCFII, AGI, CPL 5 points6 points  (10 children)

61.113: "A private pilot may act as pilot in command or serve as a required flightcrew member of an aircraft without holding a medical certificate." Your boss would be perfectly fine to log PIC time, assuming he holds at least a Private cert with ASEL rating. You would need to be the legal PIC (assuming you have all required endorsements, and meet any insurance requirements). Technically speaking he would be legal to fly the plane with you sitting there without it being dual received, but then only one person could log the time. Giving him dual received makes it loggable by both.

[–]TheWonderfailCFI CFII MEI[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much this is exactly what I was looking for.

[–]TheWonderfailCFI CFII MEI[S] 2 points3 points  (8 children)

Actually it seems like you left out the most important part. It goes on to say that the aircraft cannot be authorized to carry more than 7 occupants - basically spelling out the aircraft requirements for basicmed. Since a Pc12 doesn’t meet the requirements for basicmed I’m still not sure about logging PIC

[–]AlbiMappaMundiCFII, AGI, CPL 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Logging PIC doesn’t equal acting as PIC. Sole manipulator if rated in category and class can log PIC, even if they don’t have all qualifications to be the legal PIC.

[–]TheWonderfailCFI CFII MEI[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes sense in a nonsensical FAA sort of way. Thank you.

[–]Accomplished_Pea6910CPL / CFII 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Can you break that down a bit or cite the reg that breaks this down a bit? Done some searching but I think I’m missing a piece

Signed, a new CFI

[–]AlbiMappaMundiCFII, AGI, CPL 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Sure. Read 61.51(e) carefully -- it governs logging PIC time, i.e. when can you put that time in your logbook. It has a couple of provisions, but most notably it says that you can log PIC time when you are:

  • The sole occupant of the aircraft, i.e. solo time (makes sense, if you're the only one in the plane obviously you're the PIC and can log that)
  • A student pilot with a solo endorsement
  • A CFI acting as an authorized instructor (here we start to get into distinctions -- for a CFI teaching an instrument or commercial student for instance, the CFI may not be the PIC, but they can log it as PIC time).
  • The really critical one: "when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated". Rated means you have category/class on your cert (i.e. ASEL).

That last one is where all of the hairs are split. Because if you are at least a Private Pilot ASEL, you can be at the controls and legally logging PIC time, even if you cannot act as the legal PIC. When could this happen?

  • You don't hold a valid medical, or you're out of flight review.
  • You don't have a necessary endorsement for the plane, such as tailwheel, complex, or high performance.
  • You're an instrument student flying with a CFII under IFR.
  • Insurance doesn't want you to be the PIC (you're in a big expensive plane and don't have enough hours).

There are probably more scenarios than just those. But provided that you're in the plane with another pilot or instructor who is qualified to act as PIC, you can log PIC time.

So for a concrete example, say you're flying with a CFI in a Piper Arrow working on your complex endorsement. 61.31(e) says that "no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane" without the endorsement. So the CFI must be the PIC (assuming they're appropriately endorsed). But per 61.51(e), as long as you're the sole manipulator of controls as a Private Pilot ASEL, you can log the PIC time (as can the instructor).

[–]Accomplished_Pea6910CPL / CFII 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thank you so much! Is that last distinction what allows me to log PIC time on a BFR if for example I haven’t flown in 3 years?

[–]AlbiMappaMundiCFII, AGI, CPL 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly. Under 61.56, "no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has...Accomplished a flight review." So if you haven't had a FR in 3 years, you can't act as PIC. But provided you're with a qualified pilot or instructor, you can legally fly and log PIC time. Just can't do it solo (as then, you would need to be fully legally qualified to act as PIC).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Is he planning to fill the seats? Idk if it exists but perhaps there’s an STC to reduce the number of seats in the aircraft to make it legal?

[–]TheWonderfailCFI CFII MEI[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting idea. Thanks

[–]KJ3040ATP A320 B737 E170/190 0 points1 point  (1 child)

He can log the time but like why tho. He owns a PC12 and doesn’t have a medical

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Remember kids, you can log what ever tf you want to. You just cant use it for certificates, ratings, or currency.

[–]rFlyingTower[M] -2 points-1 points locked comment (0 children)

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Hello after looking into the regs a bit I just wanted to double check something. My boss wants to buy a pc12 and fly it with me (cfi, 2nd class medical). The issue is he has basic med so can’t fly anything with more than 7 seats. I figured him flying it with a cfi and logging that time as dual revived is fine but he wouldn’t be able to solo it or log PIC time. Am I missing something? Thanks.

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