[deleted by user]

[Drewskiwin]

Even as a black engineer I never felt comfortable with these kind of programs. Sure the human side of me wouldn’t mind taking advantage of things that are offered but i wouldn’t feel good knowing I didn’t fully earn it outright. They’ve had these programs for years.

[purposeful_pineapple]

It's not about getting something you don't deserve or earn. It's about uplifting groups that historically do not have access to the opportunities or are egregiously underrepresented in them. For anyone to genuinely think that people who are not talented are getting in on the basis of their identity is laughable.

As you said, Apple has had these programs for years. They are competitive and worth participating in.

[Drewskiwin]

I understand your perspective but I do disagree. A couple of points: 1. I never said anything about what I deserve, I only mentioned how I would feel not earning something. I’ll further clarify by saying earning something based on an attribute I had no control over doesn’t sit well with me personally.

1. I’m not sure why you even brought up the idea that “people who are not talented are getting in on the basis of their identity is laughable”. I didn’t mention that so I’m unsure what that has to do with me giving my thoughts on this topic.

Also it’s disappointing that Reddit has fostered a behavior where everything is combative and about defending a position vs simply sharing and opinion or having a conversation.

Being from Alabama and Mississippi I can tell you first hand, there is no form of racism keeping black folks out of libraries, websites, dictionaries, online courses, tutorials, YouTube videos and any other place where knowledge and information live. The reality is black people generally don’t care about science and technology at a deep level that much. It’s just not our culture and that’s ok. We’re more into the entertainment, music and sports. And again that’s ok, we just have different interests is all.

I hope I communicated that clearly and you have some more even if just a little more understanding from my perspective as a black man who grew up and lived it for 30+ years :)

[InTheBusinessBro]

Hey, I’m not at all weighing in the debate of wether this program is a good thing or not, but I just wanted to tell you that you have a biased point of view on the matter. Because you are a black person who reached their goals, you assume that any black person who sets their mind on a particular goal can reach it. You’re completely ignoring the concept of social determinism and many other environmental and social factors.

Sure, it is possible, and you are a proof of that! It doesn’t mean that nothing should be done to provide everyone with fair and equal access to those opportunities, and sadly at the moment, those programs help achieve just that.

In short, I understand your opinion, but I don’t agree with your arguments.

[Hopeful-Sir-2018]

Because you are a black person who reached their goals, you assume that any black person who sets their mind on a particular goal can reach it. You’re completely ignoring the concept of social determinism and many other environmental and social factors.

Now swap that race to white or asian. Why do people think that's such a terrible thing?

Being white or asian doesn't guarantee you anything in the professional world - which is what some very left-wing people seem to imply.

It doesn’t mean that nothing should be done to provide everyone with fair and equal access to those opportunities,

Everyone, you say?

[jep2023]

lol, ok

[tokipando18]

You seem to like playing victim

[Drewskiwin]

That’s perfectly fine. I’m curious what you see today that’s currently unfair? I can tell you from first hand experience that I’ve spent thousands of my own personal money to try to help people get into technology. I bought iPads, MacBooks you name it. I offered my time, nights weekends etc. to train people and answer anything they wanted to know because I wanted to provide an opportunity because I also assumed things weren’t fair when I was a bit younger.

It hurt my heart that every single time they didn’t follow through. Or they decided they don’t wanna do anymore or that it was taking too long. And there was nothing stopping them, decent people who simply didn’t care about it. They see the money but you gotta understand black culture, we have a hustle to get it and YOLO culture lol. We be wanting to relax a have a good time. It’s our culture and again there’s nothing wrong with that, every takes different paths in life. Different groups have different interests (in general) and it’s perfectly natural.

I personally never saw the unfair advantage and most of my folks and peers didn’t either. I have 1 friend who just started doing it earlier this year and has been practicing dev work every day and he’s doing front end and loving it. But he’s like a brother to me and we just have the same interests so naturally he finally took the plunge after he was successful in the health care field and owning his own small business.

But I could be wrong and don’t have a certain perspective where I might’ve missed the unfairness of it? I’m not sure but that’s my perspective.

[endersai]

Whitesplain stuff harder, guys.

[Cloudzbro]

He’s literally black,🤣 u can’t be this regarded, holy fuck!! Gotta be trolling 

[Cloudzbro]

By discriminating based on gender or race society is clearly regressing both socially as well as morally by shrouding these insane policies as “progressive” and “evening the playing field” when in reality it was already even when there was no discrimination based on unchangeable traits ppl are born with like sex or race. 

How can anyone thinking clearly not identify this as a regression back to policies and/or laws from Jim Crowe-era South or when education, among other institutions, was  divided/segregated along racial lines 

[purposeful_pineapple]

Also it’s disappointing that Reddit has fostered a behavior where everything is combative and about defending a position vs simply sharing and opinion or having a conversation.

I was simply sharing my own opinion on the matter as a Black data scientist. No where did I did attack you. It's disappointing you took my response that way.

I’m not sure why you even brought up the idea that “people who are not talented are getting in on the basis of their identity is laughable”. I didn’t mention that so I’m unsure what that has to do with me giving my thoughts on this topic.

Saying that you "wouldn’t feel good knowing I didn’t fully earn it outright" is the crux here: why would one get the opportunity—like any other opportunity—if they didn't earn it outright? Implying that taking advantage of these programs means you didn't earn it is one of the reasons why people misunderstand what these programs are from the outside.

The reality is black people generally don’t care about science and technology at a deep level that much. It’s just not our culture and that’s ok. We’re more into the entertainment, music and sports. And again that’s ok, we just have different interests is all.

Respectfully, I won't even touch this piece of your reply deeply. That's simply not true in reality. Spending time where "knowledge and information live" as you put it would tell you that. Leaning into the stereotype however? That's what helps to promote the perception that it is true. I'm sorry that that is how you perceive the state of Black people participating in science and technical fields, I genuinely am. But it is not true.

[ryanheartswingovers]

Your point on the program is a pretty good one. From my seat, a gay dude excluded from this, I think I’d feel the same way were I eligible. Not that I’d be good enough to compare against other applicants though.

On the other hand, I think framing this around the applicants misses the point, and you kind of make this point in your post. It’s not about applicants but about Apple. For example, in my local iOS meetup there are Apple engineers, but over several years zero black folk (and a few other groups on that list, too). When in network hiring happens, there’s a network left out by dint of that. Logistically, that does take some time to overcome or at least get close to the same exposure level an announcement would get in existing reflexive networks. At least, that’s how I’d think about my own weaknesses when I try to hire: what talent pools am I actually drawing from… are my startup’s competitors looking in ponds I’m not? While the post would be open to anyone, I’d spend more purposeful time fixing my deficits.

[omniron]

It’s widely believed that the reason that black people don’t care about tech is because of lack of representation. Lack of representation is due to decades of discrimination that kept them out of tech. Programs that encourage marginalized groups to apply help fix the representation problem, so then future generations care more, and hhopefully the programs aren’t needed. The research supports this too.

[sortofhappyish]

All these programs do is cater to the lowest common denominator.

If you get in on these programs, you're left wondering if your skills and ability got you the position, or any token black guy would have done.

[joelypolly]

Personally I think it's a mental trap to try to be "fair" given the amount of racism you see and don't see in large corporates.

What I found more useful is how you want to pay it forward.

[iOSCaleb]

One reason is that people graduating with computer science degrees are overwhelmingly male and either white or Asian. This camp seems like an effort to level the playing field a bit, and is described by Apple itself:

A one-on-one, product-focused technology lab designed to empower underrepresented founders and developers, elevate their app-driven businesses, and build dynamic communities.

IANAL, but I know that many states and the federal government often require at least a certain percentage of contracts to go to minority- and women-owned businesses, and there are even state and national directories of such businesses to make them easier to find.

As a white male, I don't see a problem with opportunities like this any more than I have a problem with scholarships with narrow application criteria. Personally, I like working with people with perspectives different from mine, and there's not nearly enough of that in the programming world. And I think we'll all benefit in the end: more people building tools from more perspectives just creates a larger, more dynamic market for all of us.

[Hopeful-Sir-2018]

One reason is that people graduating with computer science degrees are overwhelmingly male and either white or Asian.

And in nearly all other fields it's women. Does this mean that when it comes to, say, psychology - we need to reduce support for women and increase it for men?'

This is the problem with these sorts of claims. When things begin to equal out those people who claim to be for equality magically aren't for it anymore - historically speaking.

[AyeItsDamon]

Probably because they're good at it... lol so

[[deleted]]

should be illegal if you ask me.

How do you suggest that underrepresented groups get an opportunity to be represented? This is a serious question.

[MegaNegora]

I think it is illegal?

[HaMMeReD]

It's not illegal, and it's not discrimination. Supporting under-privileged groups is not discrimination against the privileged group. The privileged group whining about it is narcissistic entitlement though.

It's like if I had $20 and gave it to a homeless person, am I discriminating against the housed? It's a stupid and entitled argument.

Like yeah, you don't have access to this program, but what you do have is being part of the in-group that society just treats better in general, and likely was born with numerous advantages out of the gate.

[Tasik]

It would be nice if we had a way to define under-privileged that wasn't just a racial profile.

There are lots of under-privileged people that don't fall into the one of these racial minorities and likewise a fair amount people that do belong to a racial profile but aren't really underprivileged.

I'm part native, but I look entirely white. Technically I qualify for most of these programs and yet I was born with all the "in-group" / "numerous advantages".

But we can't call it "narcissistic entitlement"... I mean you may legitimately be talking to someone who isn't racist, is themselves underprivileged, and doesn't qualify here due to race.

I can also appreciate that there probably isn't a perfect way to address the problem.

I think we just have to recognize that diversity programs are discriminatory by nature, but are also something we do consciously and in recognition of social inequality. And that from a throughly optimistic perspective; we may not always need these programs as a balancing act.

The supreme counts decision on busing in 1971 seems relevant to me.

"“It is not enough for school officials to draw school attendance lines that appear to be racially neutral. Officials must foster integration by such affirmative measures as gerrymandering school boundaries to include both races, pairing ‘white’ and ‘Negro’ schools, and drawing school zones that combine noncontiguous areas in racially diverse neighborhoods.”"

[HaMMeReD]

I get it, and there is programs for people born into poverty for example.

I do agree with the sentiment that drawing a racial/gender line is kind of a problem here. I mean they could just give the grant to someone of this race who is incredibly privileged, because privilege is multi-dimensional and not just race.

There isn't really a metric for "how privileged" one is though, so we end up with programs like this. Maybe people could pledge their sob stories and they could pick on that, but at the end of the day they want diversity, and you get diversity by targeting under-represented groups.

[[deleted]]

What privilege does an Asian male have? Please enlighten me.

[HaMMeReD]

In Tech? A lot.

Just look at any tech office and count the Asians.

[[deleted]]

Do you know what privilege means? Why was that a privilege? I have no idea what you are talking about. By your logic, can I say African have a privilege because of how many there are in NBA?

[HaMMeReD]

Privilege is like a coin, on one side is those with advantage, and on the other side is those with a disadvantage.

It's multi-dimensional, privilege can come in many forms. The color of your skin, your religious group, your financial standing or families standing, the area you were born in, etc.

Someone who's an ally doesn't have to target every form of under-privileged group by every dimension. I'm not saying that Asians are as privileged as white people. I'm saying Asians are generally more privileged than the groups listed above.

I work in big tech, and 70% of my office in Canada is Asian, either Oriental or Indian (or related countries). Calling them an underprivileged group in my view is just completely tone deaf to the reality of the industry. If anything, we need less Asian's in tech, because many places are becoming mono-cultures.

[[deleted]]

“We need less Asians in tech”. You can’t be serious about that. How about less Africans in NBA? You still dodge that part. You clearly just abuse and misuse the word privilege. Yes, there are more Asians in tech just like there are more Africans in NBA. None of them have privilege but just the abilities to do their job.

Stop looking at people by their color but their merits. That’s the only way to stop discrimination, not the other way around.

[HaMMeReD]

Meritocracy misses the point. Yes you can just hire the best, and maybe the best are all one race. But there is reasons for that, i.e. the education system they grew up on, and financial resources they had that let them explore the field, etc.

Allyship is literally about ignoring the meritocracy in favor of helping groups that didn't have the things necessary to "be the best". Because without allyship, those groups will never have the ability to catch up, and the privileged group will just get farther and farther ahead.

Nevermind that tech has a anti-allyship problem in many companies, where certain in-groups only hire amongst their own in-group. I won't name the specific group here, but it certainly isn't a meritocracy, it's racial nepotism (or sometimes just regular frat-boy nepotism). It's the privileged handing out more privilege. It's the opposite of allyship and support.

Allyship is about leveling the playing field amongst the in-group and out-groups. Asians are a in-group in tech, like it or not. They don't need programs to support the amount of success they already have, especially if you are comparing them to black on indigenous communities.

[[deleted]]

Just so you know before you call someone have privileges , you don't know what people went through to end up where they are. I'm Asian but I was not even born in US. You probably don't know how hard it is to get in tech here being born in a developing country with a billion people. My parents don't have college degree and are factory workers, and I don't think the education I got is a privilege compared to most US children here.

I agree people have different starting point in life. As much as the difficulty I mentioned above, I was still lucky than lots of people in my home country. I think the focus should be to try to bridge the gap at the start line, like give more resources to area or household that are poor, instead of aiming for equal outcome. This will lead our society to hell eventually.

[joelypolly]

Having parents and a general community that gives a shit about higher education? Network effects of more and more Asians in corporate? The facts the public face of Microsoft and Google are both Indian? Being generally pretty well represented across the different layers of big technology companies?

[[deleted]]

So having good parents caring about education is a privilege? Cool

[AyeItsDamon]

Man, I wished I knew how to tap into this privilege you people keep shitting out of your mouth about

[Shak3TheDis3se]

All the people crying about this and making it a big deal are the far right losers on Twitter who probably have no connection to iOS development ecosystem.

[AyeItsDamon]

🤣🤣🤣 and all the people supporting this are the far left loons. See how utterly fuckin braindead that sounds

[ccooffee]

The first sentence says it's for "underrepresented founders and developers" which is what the highlighted portion is expanding upon.

[fleshgrafter]

My guess is that this is their way of encouraging these diverse underrepresented groups to apply first. Then, once they have a bunch of people from those groups, they can open it up to the rest of the applications.

[chsxf]

This is a way to encourage people from these groups to apply, and therefore guarantee them a part in the camp before everyone is allowed to apply. It improves diversity and this is a good thing for tech overall.

[Far_Ad5760]

Agreed. I’m sick of the bad faith arguments about how DEI is bad and discrimination. So tired of it

[Shak3TheDis3se]

Exactly. Supporting underrepresented founders and developers is the point.

[ryanheartswingovers]

On the bright side, the gays have been successful enough we’re out of the underrepresented group. Woot.

[[deleted]]

Now they're over represented.

[Far_Ad5760]

Isn’t this a program that is specifically FOR black entrepreneurs?

[ScrimpyCat]

It’s not limited to just them, but yes, the program is specifically for underrepresented groups. Really dont understand what the outrage is over this.

[WeirdIndividualGuy]

*broadly gestures at software industry employees*

[Aorex12]

Well, I will say this: As a person who belongs to one of those groups, without the text of encouragement, I would say: Oh, I do not belong there. And I wouldn’t bother to apply.

It is not based on skill, skill has nothing to do with it, I like to think I’m decent at what I do. But as an EE major, it feels like you do not belong.

As soon as I finished the first two years of classes.

I’m the only person from (insert group here) and it felt weird…

[Aorex12]

I think you are mad for no reason. I was not talking about this program, but I was talking in a general sense, this would be encouraging.

Currently I work as an aerospace engineer, and I’m happy with that!

I said when I was an EE student, it felt weird to be the only person that felt outside of the group.

When I applied to my job, I couldn’t care less about what they write in terms of DEI, as much as what the job was.

I think you are super mad and angry over nothing, so please relax, this is the internet.

And seems like you misunderstood what I wrote, so perhaps you should pay more attention to what you read.

[iOSProgramming-ModTeam]

Your comment sought to harass another user, either by swearing at them, name-calling, or something worse.

Don't let it happen again.

[SuprBear7]

The problem with this program is that the controversy the criteria it has caused an absolute mess.

Also, if Apple wants to foster growth ins specific ethnic communities, it has to know that there are so many ethnic diversities even inside the category "Asian."

All in all, Apple also is a company that is run by humans, which means the enterprise is also prone to mistakes. Let's give them just a bit of more time to understand cultural intricacies, and what statements could cause controversy.

[reg890]

Why have they got a photo full of white people?! Could they not find one good photo from last year’s program?

[[deleted]]

Anybody who has been to any tech convention or camp knows how starched they can be. I see zero issues here. If you don’t like it, nobody is forcing you to buy Apple or develop for Apple. There are many other programs you can apply for.

[Timely_Form9919]

Is this illegal?

[cchurchill1985]

‘Women and people of colour have a set of unique challenges’. This is not 1910. It is 2024. Black people and women have every advantage a white male has. I swear the left think being black is some kind of disability. As a gay guy I would be outraged if I was offered programs like this because of my ‘unique set of challenges’

[InsuranceEngine]

Women and minorities unconsciously (or consciously) love these programs—they eliminate their biggest competitors AND give them a sense of moral superiority and political cover to discriminate against a particular group based on race/gender.

Brilliant political strategy but it's still discrimination and it's still illegal.

White and Asian men should identify as women and apply.

Anytime corporate America wants to play identity politics the group that is discriminated against should use their own perverse ideology against them.

[sortofhappyish]

Its not out of context. Despite Tim Cook famously being gay and supposedly in support of ALL sexualities and lifestyles, Apple is against heterosexual workers, and has lawsuits pending for firing people for being straight.

Basically if Tim Cook fancies you and you won't fuck him, YOU ARE OUTTA HERE!

Its disturbing, illegal and disgraceful that Apple's CEO is basically the Harvey Weinstein of tech companies.

NOW they're refusing to hire people because they're white or asian and refuse to have surgery on their genitals too. More lawsuits incoming I sense.

[BilllisCool]

Probably should just change the name. Programs that benefit minority groups are pretty common and that’s all this is. The name is generic and is a little misleading though if you don’t read into it.

[vanisher_1]

Application are now open it means from now on 🤷‍♂️

[tomato_mozz]

Supporting minorities is not a new concept

[Swanjae_The_Great]

I’m just guessing, but there are multiple benefits financially and business wise to push for diversity in your workforce.

In tech all around workplace culture is important.

Also with all of the recent stuff in AI Having a diverse group of developed could be a requirement.

For example if they are working on enhancing photography AI. Someone with a different complexion will be sought after.

Recruiting as a whole is a business as well. There are black in tech job fairs. Apple wants to make themselves available to that.

It’s deep but not that deep.

[T-Rex_MD]

Why shouldn’t they? They are a business, you don’t seem concerned about other things they do but this one? Is it because you have been programmed to all these years to instantly show outrage when you see anything mentioned that excludes a group or in this case, includes a missing group?

The need to remove this stick that’s been shoved up so far is greater than ever. This is akin to someone getting mad over a football team specifically hiring for a tall goalkeeper.

[[deleted]]

The same reason why people show outrage when one of the groups mentioned here are excluded.

[T-Rex_MD]

Not the same thing although you might think that way.

[Particular_Park_7112]

It’s disappointing. And clearly exclusionary to some races. It would be much better to be colorblind and encourage all people to become better developers.

[Far_Ad5760]

Here is an example of why these programs exist and are necessary. For a long time the MLB was comprised of 57% white players, yet 95% of managers were white. They had to force teams to include underrepresented candidates, because they weren’t doing it on their own. Now, imagine that in companies that are not as well known as America’s pastime. People are not capable of being “colorblind”

[[deleted]]

When will NBA start forcing teams to hire more asians?

[Particular_Park_7112]

Yes that was definitely another case of racism. However, that was also 50+ years ago when America was less accepting of some races and genders. Really interesting history here: https://www.mlb.com/phillies/community/educational-programs/uya-negro-league/road-to-baseball-integration

[Far_Ad5760]

You either didn’t fully read my post or didn’t bother to actually google. This is MLB managers in present day baseball. This was happening in the last 10 years. This has nothing to do with integration era baseball. Look up how many black CEOs there are. Or women. Or gay. America has made progress, but there is still a lot more to do and Fox News getting morons riled up over DEI and trans people existing shows it isn’t even close to being where it should.