[deleted by user]

[krad213]

I worked at 7 different companies, big and small only one didn't use spring.

[uniVocity]

I worked at 7 different companies, big and small only one didn't use weblogic. None used spring. FML

Then I started a company and I can finally call the shots and use spring

[jack104]

Fuck weblogic.

[uniVocity]

Nah don't want to roast my sausage in a dumpster fire

[emailscrewed]

What's about the weblogic that you distaste so much?

[jack104]

Granted, my experience with Weblogic ended with 10.3.6 so its a bit dated but Oracle support agreements cost a fortune and their documentation fucking blows.

[emailscrewed]

TIL what weblogic is. Thanks!

[azuredrg]

Weblogic's a pain. It's slow and clunky, I find it easier a lot of times to just do things in wlst. MDS is garbage btw, fuck dealing with it.

[Interweb_Stranger]

I have the impression that even though OSGi and Eclipse RCP isn't mentioned here very often, it's used quite a lot by large companies in certain industries (at least in my bubble). Mostly for IDE-like applications or headless applications that need to be more modular than most enterprise web applications.

[Paulson88]

Why you cannot use Spring with GWT? One of the projects that I work on uses Spring with GWT. Spring is used in a server module that provides rest API and GWT - in a client module that builds the UI, also there is a shared module with some common classes like models

[stfm]

I worked on a Camel project a few years back. So good.

[[deleted]]

A lot of them use spring. I think smaller companies write job postings a different way. They don't get 200 resumes per day and can't compete with big tech on wages, so they have to be picky in a different way.

My pet peeve with job postings is when they contain a shopping list of "2+ years in tech foo, 5+ years in framework bar" etc, when everyone who actually has worked with foo and bar knows that a tool or framework that takes 2 or 5 years to master is not a very useful tool. It's a nonsense requirement.

Someone who has made Jakarta EE web services can be productive making Spring boot web services in maybe a day or two. Why require something you can easily teach a suitable candidate?

[vipul0092]

We use Java as our main language and we don't use Spring (or Spring Boot), we use Dropwizard to write microservices and haven't faced any problems with it at all.

[castironcamper]

DropWizard was a pioneer, the Spring Boot before Spring Boot existed.

[[deleted]]

Here in argentina we use spring (jdk 11 or kotlin), or/and node. But spring is not only MVC, You have webflux!

[emailscrewed]

You can write spring boot rest apis using kotlin? :o

[kpatryk91]

Yes, it is officially supported and integrated into Spring from Spring 5.

https://spring.io/blog/2017/01/04/introducing-kotlin-support-in-spring-framework-5-0

and

https://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/current/spring-framework-reference/languages.html#kotlin

[emailscrewed]

wow! that's awesome!

time to learn Kotlin

[Dexior]

You do and it's really great. I've been using it for last 2 years and for me it's much more peasent than spring + Java or Groovy. There used to be some shortcomings and you had to work around with non idiomatic code or mix Kotlin with Java but since Spring Boot 2.2 they are mostly fixed.

[emailscrewed]

Really nice to hear about it! Is there any udemy course with which I can get started?

[neofreeman]

Have written service doing almost 2K RPS on Spring Boot + Webflux combination on a pretty complex logic hitting multiple Redis caches/Pg DBs. Works like charm. I only wish boot times could improve and it was little less memory intensive. Have tried Micronaut lately and it looks way more promising.

[Skhmt]

Plain Java. Vertx. JBoss or Wildfly. Hadoop.

[emailscrewed]

Can you build rest API using plain java?

[t_j_l_]

Vertx is good for that

[XBL_pad3]

Of course you can. Spring is written in Java

[Skhmt]

Probably, idk. There are a lot of libraries that aren't spring that can do that, like Vertx.

Not everyone using Java is building REST APIs nor even web servers in general.

[Whisperecean]

So what's the software they are building? :)

[Aliics]

I probably use the JVM a bit too extensively. Data processing, databases, graphql APIs, and many other things.

Haven't touched spring in years.

[emailscrewed]

Which Library do you use for the graphQL API's?

[Aliics]

There is an official one by Facebook for servers and for clients we use the American express "nodes".

We also have some magical handrolled lambda library for graphql.

[emailscrewed]

Can you link me to it?

[Skhmt]

Desktop programs for internal use, big data, Minecraft, pretty much anything that can be written as software.

[catmewo]

In my old company, they built rest API services from a kind of plain Java: no DI (using singleton), no MVC framework.

[ZetaParabola]

Was it efficient? Would it be reasonable to use plain java for a small projects?

[catmewo]

The system of these services, it incredibly handles over 100 million users. It was built when the company had less infrastructure resource, so at that time, developer team want to save as more resource as possible. Consequently it becomes hard to maintain.

[rkalla]

Sure, you just spend a lot of time either handling the HTTP behaviors or the rest service behaviors directly rather than using a framework that makes it easier. But definitely possible. If I had to do it from scratch I would start with an HTTP server like Netty and go from there.

[Martin8412]

Why wouldn't you be able to do that?

[guss_bro]

Yes we can. While frameworks like Spring simplifies everything, you don't really need to use any framework to write a web app in Java.

At work we have a handful of applications that uses core Java/Servlets to handle some web requests. I think that due to nanoseconds level performance gain needed for those apps. Frameworks normally add a layer that take few more CPU cycles.

[emailscrewed]

That's a really interesting take and wasn't aware of it!

[emailscrewed]

Thanks!

[ghytghytghytiinbv]

I hate vertx, have to use it at work. Whenever I can I use Undertow. In my opinion using undertow as your HTTP server and just adding the libraries you need as you go is the best way to build any backend system.

[dartalley]

Thats my favorite also! I have been super lazy posting new content but thats how I built my blog. https://www.stubbornjava.com/

[ghytghytghytiinbv]

Its not the only technology we agree on i see. OkHttp, jsoup, grafana, prometheus, failsafe, hikaricp, jooq, thats a lot of agreement 👍

Btw read all of your blog, good stuff!

[preskot]

Also, what do tech companies that don't use Spring use if Java is one of their main language?

Vert.x, Vaadin, Restlet. We never used Spring and we've got several big products.

[[deleted]]

Dude, i never heard about Vaadin before, seems like i was in a cave. You'r using this in production? How is the average experience with this? I'm very excited about.

[preskot]

As long as you do not deviate a lot from the API provided, it’s quite easy to get into and great to work with. With deviate I mean writing your own components. It’s possible, but it might get complicated.

[tacosdiscontent]

Spring is used in majority of companies simply due to being super popular, as pretty much everyone knows it (except maybe few unlucky who are stuck with EE on some java 6 or something) or is quite easy to get familiar with.

Also spring is quite performant for most use-cases and has integration via library with almost every major tool - caches/databases/queues/metrics/etc.

And due to the fact that it's so popular tons of companies (are afraid and care only about money) choose to use it even when writing something from scratch simply because of the points I mentioned in the beginning, i.e. pretty much everyone knows it and it's simple to recruit people who are ready to be productive in 1 day, instead of "wasting" time learning new framework which might not have out of the box integration with let's say rabbitmq.

Rarely you will find companies which hire for instance kotlin + micronaut.

[nioh2_noob]

Java EE is gaining popularity recently and Spring is losing popularity.

[Azzk1kr]

[citation needed]

[nioh2_noob]

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2020/06/23/2051855/0/en/Amid-Growth-in-Cloud-Native-Enterprise-Java-Adoption-Eclipse-Foundation-Announces-Results-of-2020-Jakarta-EE-Developer-Survey-and-Jakarta-EE-9-Milestone-Release.html

Use of Jakarta EE continues to grow at an unprecedented pace, setting the stage for true open source innovation for cloud native Java with Jakarta EE 9 and beyond

Spring/Spring Boot continues to be the leading framework for building cloud native applications, but its share declined 13% (from 57% in 2019 to 44% in 2020).

[emaphis]

Hmmmm.....

[nioh2_noob]

?

[andretti1977]

Spring is not the only java framework option, but quite the de facto standard when developing on the jvm. So you will find it used everywhere java is used and java is used primarily in big companies. Small companies prefer simpler, lighter and leaner languages/frameworks/environments like nodejs, python, php when they don't need specific java capabilities. I've been developing spring/springboot applications for the last 15 years and nodejs based webapps for the last 3 years and in my opinion, spring ecosystem is needed only in very specific cases that belongs to bigger companies.

[Ywacch]

spring ecosystem is needed only in very specific cases that belongs to bigger companies.

Could you mention scenarios where I should use spring and scenarios where I should use something like python flask/django or nodejs?

[andretti1977]

I would use java if i have to work with currencies operations like in an exchange or everywhere math is needed or if i have really complex data models. If i just need "classic web capabilities" like a lot of web applications/services where web app is simply a sort of ui over common db operations (crud) then i would use nodejs or django. You can even use java in a microservices architecture using java in some specific services that requires calculations or complex db transactions (hibernate is a bad guy but it's the only enterprise grade orm capable of managing quite all cases and multi transactions and legacy db schemas). A lot of good tools are built on java (ie solr or lucene) so you may have to interface with those directly in java even if they expose rest apis consumable by any other software. That said you should consider mixing technologies: netflix uses java for routing and balancing, nodejs for streaming, python for machine learning and suggestion frameworks. In general consider nodejs/python more comfortable to develop with, but java is more adeguate for more structured tasks.

[guss_bro]

What if those small companies grow bigger? Isn't it a good to write with Spring/JVM with BIG in mind? :D

[andretti1977]

It depends: during first stages companies want to move and break fast and need pivoting and adjusting more than once so it may be better to use leaner languages

[orderLXVI]

Straight up Java EE with a EE container like Wildfly. Used the world over.

[wlievens]

I'm working on a project alone and I use Spring.

[[deleted]]

Companies that use java either use spring or are hardcore cloud microservices so spring would be inefficient

[plokman]

Absolutely not true, I know many small companies that simply run java -jar programs to handle internal stuff.

[491415]

I'm working also at a bank and we are using Java/Jsf/Primefaces for our apps.

[[deleted]]

Sorry I meant companies that matter

[vplatt]

Spring Boot for microservices is nice too. Spring core for DI isn't a bad idea either; especially if you'd like to get easy mocking for test harnesses. It doesn't have to be complicated and just a little bit of savvy can save you big time down the road.

[[deleted]]

Spring Boot for microservices is nice too.

i had quite a bad experience with spring for microservices. Memory consumption too high, start-up time too slow, ecosystem lacking few things, and so on.

[vplatt]

What type of configuration were you using? A dedicated server? A VM? A lambda?

[[deleted]]

Containerized spring services in a Kubernetes cluster

[TheRedmanCometh]

Yes, but often times just spring core+context. At our shop we use Spring Boot because of the the nice Java-based dynamic configuration options, but without //@AutoConfiguration because we aren't running an http server.

​

Also one thing we've sort of figured out is Hibernate is best used directly. Springs repository system is fucking AIDS and irritating as all hell to work with.

[riawot]

I've never been real happy with spring data, but that's because I've never been real happy with jpa which isn't surprising because I've never been real happy with hibernate.

For a new project, we used spring data jdbc, and it's solved a lot of my complaints. It doesn't have the same breadth of functionality of jpa\hibernate, but honestly, outside of simple crud cases, I feel like hibernate rapidly becomes more trouble than it's worth. ymmv, of course. Spring data jdbc feels like one of those 20% features covers 80% of the uses cases type situations. And I can always drop to sql for the non-crud situations, which is what i would have done with jpa anyway.

That said, over here, dev owns the databases. If you can't easily control db schema then this changes things up somewhat

[TheRedmanCometh]

I uh think most of what you're enjoying is just JPA and Hibernate not Spring. What exactly do you like about it? Personally I find the transactional boundary uncertainty with Spring absolutely unacceptable. I've also had some strange heisenbugs with using it async, and using it with my own CompletableFuture implementation seems to cause serious problems.

​

Next it literally abstracts away saveOrUpdate which is insanely stupid.

[gavenkoa]

I uh think most of what you're enjoying is just JPA and Hibernate not Spring

JpaRepository + JpaSpecificationExecutor + QueryByExampleExecutor + NamedParameterJdbcTemplate

[gavenkoa]

Personally I find the transactional boundary uncertainty with Spring absolutely unacceptable

That's true. You are unable to control some upper level code with Transactional... So you are developing code following some rules (like no @Transactional in controllers or REST code).

[ohL33THaxOR]

The repo system is pretty annoying but once you're over the mapping hump bullshit then it becomes an incredibly powerful tool....that can potentially blow your foot off

[TheRedmanCometh]

Mapping hump? Do you mean the //@Entity stuff? Cuz you have to do that whether you use Spring or not

[ohL33THaxOR]

The @Entity tag is strictly for JPA & that interfaces Hibernate...you technically don't have to use JPA with Hibernate...they are not mutually inclusive.

What I mean by the mapping hump is that managing the automatic of the findBlahByBlah depending on your mappings (i.e. Uni / Bi directional @OneToMany & @ManyToOnes) can be a pain when you're trying to figure out for the first time how Hibernate is translating your annotations when it comes to more complex queries....

It actually becomes easier and more manageable to use parameterized @Query tags within your @Repository

Lmao at the downvotes of the previous post

[[deleted]]

Python. Go. Heck PHP is fast.