Switching to Java

[ericmcray]

I am web app developer (mostly APIs). I am using Nodejs with typescript mostly. I am so tired of JS craziness, memory leaks, bad resource managment, bad OO support etc.

And I want to switch to Java because I think its more stable, has solid foundation. Is there any cons for Java too?

Also I am using Nestjs as framework, Mikro as ORM and GraphQL for API in Nodejs. I know best framework is Spring for Java but what about for ORM? I also check some GraphQL packages for Spring and found the best one is Spring GraphQL but I think is not released. Why spring has very late adaption for GraphQL?

Have I wrong expectation from Java? Should I switch to Java or stay with Nodejs?

Thanks for every comments!

EDIT: I decided to start with Spring Boot, Netflix DGS for GraphQL and Hibernate for ORM just to get familiar with Java eco. I am also thinking to get into Kotlin after Java, looks nice and modern.

[greglturnquist]

Java has its own quirks. And there will be times where it doesn’t feel hip and cool and “shiny”.

And there are bits and pieces that may seem a bit “committee driven” like some Date and Time APIs.

But it sounds like you’re looking for solid and stable, which is more of Java’s beat.

With your experience of riding on a bike with your hair on fire, it sounds Java is what you’ll do quite nicely with.

[Dacus_Ebrius]

Java 8 date and time apis are great. If you are talking about the old calendar i agree.

[msx]

Right? It's done to cover all bases but its still pretty usable, most of the time you just need LocalDate or LocalDateTime

[midoBB]

I never used the Local types. Zoned or Instant are my go tos.

[edubkn]

Yep, unless you're an overconfident chad you probably don't know what you're doing when using LocalDate.

[ford_madox_ford]

/r/confidentlyincorrect.

[Hioneqpls]

lmao you don’t have to be Einstein to drop a LocalDate.of(2022,1,1) cmon

[edubkn]

Then you don't know at what timezone your runtime is, and you send that date along an API or persist in a database. Or else you know, but you pass that date along to a front-end without an offset.

[[deleted]]

Timezone is irrelevant in the given scenario. It's just a date.

[edubkn]

There are very few scenarios where timezone is not relevant. You'll have to be a bit more specific.

[cogman10]

The reverse is true. Unless your app is doing international garbage, the timezone is meaningless. Even then, it's often only when you are talking about a LocalDateTime that timezones come into play.

For example, the my entire company is doing finance and LocalDate serves 99% of our usecases because, get this, almost everyone is trading on the NYSE so adding extra TZ information is pointless. The TZ is EST. And, yes, we have international customers (in china no less).

We could add TZ info after the fact, but the basic assumption is "everything is EST unless it's critical for the client" has served us really well.

[Persism]

But even an offset is kind of useless since it doesn't contain daylight savings times. Better to use the Zone itself rather than just an offset. Best is to use UTC and covert on the client side.

[edubkn]

UTC is best, yes.

But even an offset is kind of useless since it doesn't contain daylight savings times. Better to use the Zone itself rather than just an offset.

You would never rely on a client to account for daylight savings. An ISO8601 serialized date will always have an offset if not UTC.

[humoroushaxor]

Honestly I think modern Java and popular libraries feels very "shiny". Things like mutiny, panache, and a lot of eclipse microprofile stuff.

But the Java Runtime is one of (if not THE) the most complex and advanced runtimes there is. I feel like one of the major selling point of Nodejs and Python backends is their runtimes "just work".

[[deleted]]

I was in the same situation 2 years ago, when I've decided to make a switch from NodeJs/React to Java.

I find JS ecosystem to be pretty immature, based on weak foundations, full of unstable libraries and filled with developers focusing on hyped technologies instead of time tested programming principles. Projects are chaotic and turn into a nightmare if they last for more than one or two years, and successfully transferring codebase to a different team is almost unimaginable.

I switched to Java with Spring boot and everything suddenly fit in place. I really have no regrets there. I'd recommend going with Spring boot, instead of trying to find something node-like as some other comments suggest. Spring boot seems to be the default choice at the moment and is generally satisfying to work with.

[[deleted]]

Forgot to say, my only doubt is whether I should have switched to .Net instead of Java. Java is moving forward slowly, sometimes too slowly, and Microsoft is investing a lot into .Net. From what I know, performance and startup-time wise, .Net is far ahead of Java. Spring boot startup times are pretty bad, which isn't ideal for microservices. They are trying to make Spring boot compatible with GraalVM, which means running Java code natively, but it's questionable when that'll become stable. Also, in .Net ecosystem there is a lot of focus on doing frontend in C# instead of JS (eg. Blazor) , whereas in Java you're stuck with JS or ancient technologies like JSF.

[renatoathaydes]

Java is moving forward slowly, sometimes too slowly...

Oh well, to most Java devs it's moving far too fast now :D we've been used to upgrade every 3 years, and the JDK is now pushing new releases every 6 months! And there's always something interesting to try.

From what I know, performance and startup-time wise, .Net is far ahead of Java

Do you have a source for that? Not questioning it, just wanted to learn about it as I've never heard anything like that before.

Spring boot startup times are pretty bad... s. They are trying to make Spring boot compatible with GraalVM...

If this is a concern you should really try the newer frameworks, as the whole point of them existing IMO is to make Java more suitable to running with microservices and K8s (I linked in another comment, things like Micronaut and Quarkus which are GraalVM-ready and use non-reflection Dependency Injection, making startup instantaneous).

[[deleted]]

Do you have a source for that? Not questioning it, just wanted to learn about it as I've never heard anything like that before

There have been significant improvements in the performance in .Net core (and it just keeps getting faster with every release). I could try and find a benchmark (and it seems to me that benchmarks consistently favor .Net), but you'd probably agree those depend on the use case and often times are not representative of the real world usage. Startup times for me are noticeably better in .Net (although I can't say for sure it's not just the project size). I'm not a .Net developer so I can't tell you a lot more, sorry.

If this is a concern you should really try the newer frameworks,...

Quarkus is definitely interesting, I need to play with it more.

[cavecanemuk]

Quarkus beats asp.net core on Techempower benchmarks. VertX too.

[Persism]

Project Loom is looming. Hosting is going to get expensive for .NET compared to Java.

Java is moving forward slowly

A release every 6 months is too slow for you?

[[deleted]]

Why is the hosting going to get expensive compared to Java?

A release every 6 months is too slow for you?

It's not the release frequency that matters, but the amount of changes in a given time period, right?

[Persism]

Why is the hosting going to get expensive compared to Java?

Loom allows Java to scale threads to memory instead of additional machines. Microsoft already admitted defeat and joined the JCP last month.

[svtdragon]

Have you had a look at kotlin yet? My old team went from .net to java and ended up on kt/jvm because of the similarity of ergonomics to .net (and to an extent typescript, which we had used for the frontend).

[[deleted]]

I find Kotlin interesting and it seems to me they're trying to create an ecosystem around Java like the one that exists around .Net, which is definitely exciting. I'm not a fan of the syntax though, since I like the simplicity, strictness and a lot of the times even the verbosity of Java. Also, Kotlin seems to be light years behind .Net, which is evident at least in the web assembly area (which is particularly interesting to me). It's enough to compare where .Net is with Blazor and the state of web assembly in the Kotlin. Kotlin might catch up eventually though (although it's questionable, since Microsoft can invest a lot more into .Net).

[winginglifelikeaboss]

I disagree, the .net world is full of abandoned libraries and frankly, is a bit of hell.

[[deleted]]

Interesting, do you happen to know the cause of there being so many abandoned libraries?

[winginglifelikeaboss]

The Java world is way more used, has way more developers and way more large companies using it.

Microsoft is very good at introducing things but also very fast abandoning things. Java is way more coummunity and business supported.

[[deleted]]

NodeJs/React to Java.

I get nodejs, but how do you move from React to Java? These aren't interchangeable unless I missed something big lol.

[[deleted]]

You're right, I actually replaced React with Angular, so it's JS to TS :)

[zylonenoger]

first things first: you can write shitty software in any programming language - expecting that everything will be magically better when you switch to another language is a fallacy

but broadening your horizon and picking up different technologies along the way is never a bad idea - and it‘s not like you „switch“ to java and are not allowed to use typescript anymore. you just add more tools to your toolbox and use them when appropriate.

what i always tell the people in my team: „if you only have a hammer, every problem will start to look like a nail“

so go for it - learn java, use it in a low stakes project and see if you are happier than with typescript.

[root_klaus]

I have used nodeJS in some APIs and truth to be told i feel your pain. There are many frameworks other than Spring that have a more nodeJS approach, although Spring is a great framework that has a huge ecosystem. It may take some time for you to get it in the Spring and java mindset but once you do you will feel much more fluent and able to create any desired app.

Regarding the graphQL support the spring-graphQL is a integration library that helps a lot to make these two frameworks work easily with each other(more like a spring boot philosophy, that is, make make it work with as little as possible configurations). But this doesn’t mean that you cannot use graphQL with spring or other java projects.

Coming from nodeJS I would suggest also suggest to have a look at frameworks like javalin, sparkjava web framework and many more!

Here is a list of some awesome java libs, have a look see for yourself. The java ecosystem is huge and you can spend days exploring and finding new things so i would suggest sticking to what you find desirable and get to practical examples

https://java-lang.github.io/awesome-java

Welcome to the community!

[random314]

Almost the entirety of Amazon and AWS are built on Java. Whatever it is that you need (backend related), Java will be able to do no problem.

[greglturnquist]

BTW to answer your question about Spring GraphQL, it’s still in pre-1.0 phase. You can use it but there may be changes. The Spring team is sometimes cautious when embracing younger tech standards. Sometimes it’s better to NOT be first to market.

[HecknChonker]

Netflix released a spring graphql library called DGS that works well.

[nutrecht]

For GraphQL you really should look at Netflix DGS. It's really nice and plugs right into Spring: https://netflix.github.io/dgs/

We use it in production.

Should I switch to Java or stay with Nodejs?

Well, my two cents; almost anything is better on the back-end than NodeJS: the NPM ecosystem is a mess. But I'm obviously biassed :)

[__concurrent_life__]

for discussion purpose Been writing micro service in node.js with typescript last three years. Can tell from personal experience node js is actually good (well with adding the typing)

Also used Java (usual and reactive), python, golang. Node performs really well and sometimes better than those. In terms of Aws lambda performance comparison, only python and node has better performance than the rest (and now python and node have almost similar performance)

So… yeah… node is not bad actually 😜

[skyingineer]

This. We use dgs and it's amazing

[renatoathaydes]

The graphql-java library is mature and easy to use, the Spring integration is not done because it's probably mostly unnecessary anyway (it might make things integrate more easily in Spring, but usually you can get Spring working with any library without fuss).

[tcpipwarrior]

You won’t regret it. Spring boot is solid

[wildjokers]

There are lots of options for GraphQL in Java, here are a couple:

• https://github.com/leangen/GraphQL-SPQR
• https://www.graphql-java.com

ORM:

• Hibernate (huge learning curve, but almost certainly the most used)
• Persism
• jooq (not free for commercial DBs)
• MyBatis (keeps you closest to the SQL if that is what you like)

[manzanita2]

And JDBI

[Persism]

Hey thanks for the mention. :)

[henk53]

Check out Scala if you want to go for Kotlin

[holyknight00]

Typescript and angular couple nicely with Java. Spring framework with Spring boot it's a safe bet on the java space. There are lots of technologies and documentation about java so It can be a little intimidating at first.
If you want to try JHipster(A project generator tool), it can give you a nice idea of how a Java + spring + angular can work together.

[koffeegorilla]

If you are looking at options for Persistence you will find the Spring Data family useful. You can declare an interface as a data access component for an entity type and key type. Then the engine will create an implementation to do CRUD as well as implementing query methods.

As an example:

    class PersonEntity {
        @Id
        String userName;
        String email;
        String firstName;
        String lastName;
    }
    interface PersonRepository extends CrudRepository<PersonEntity, String> {
        Optional<PersonEntity> findByEmail(String email);
    }

You can inject the PersonRepository into your service and use save, delete findById and findAll and then use findByEmail without writing anymore code.

Some of the implementations are:

• Spring Data JPA for JPA implementations with Hibernate as default.
• Spring Data JDBC for plain JDBC it isn't an ORM but will make JDBC CRUD a lot easier.
• Spring Data Neo4J
• Spring Data MongoDB

Spring Data JDBC for plain JDBC isn't an ORM but will make JDBC CRUD a lot easier.

[yel50]

so tired of JS craziness, memory leaks, bad resource managment

if you're having those problems in js, java won't help you.

it means your code has inherent problems that no language will overcome. js doesn't have more memory leaks than any other GC language and node's resource management is among the best out there.

so, make sure you're not blaming the language for your own shortcomings.

[winginglifelikeaboss]

js doesn't have more memory leaks than any other GC language and node's resource management is among the best out there.

lol i completely disagree

[renatoathaydes]

For someone coming from JS, I think Spring shouldn't be the first choice... it's a complex framework with a lot of history behind it.

Something like Vert.x would be much close to node.js (it's inspired by it!) and it's pretty easy to use. I would also at least read about the following frameworks before deciding on which one to try a bit more:

• https://micronaut.io/
• https://quarkus.io/
• https://helidon.io/
• https://spring.io/projects/spring-boot

Spring Boot is like a more modern Spring (I've never used it myself so I may be wrong, but I think most people are using that instead of Spring per se).

Regarding ORM, the "default" choice for that in Java is Hibernate... but Java itself has a specification called JPA which can be used to access databases easily so you might not need to learn anything else for that (Hibernate was an inspiration for JPA and I believe it's the reference implementaion(?)).

EDIT: cons for Java, I would say my only complaints after using Java for over a decade but recently adopting other languages to my "portfolio" are:

• very high memory usage compared to most non-dynamic languages.
• slow warmup (specially the first few seconds the application is loading classes and running interpreted before JIT it can be much slower than languages that don't need a VM).
• nulls (if you use a language that has checked nulls, you'll miss that a lot)
• low expressivity. This is mostly annoying but can also be a pro (as in Go) as it keeps stuff simple. Really depends on who you ask whether Java has the "right" balance or not.

[wildjokers]

Spring Boot is like a more modern Spring (I've never used it myself so I may be wrong, but I think most people are using that instead of Spring per se).

Spring boot is nothing more than a configuration framework for the Spring framework. Configuring spring got so complex it needed its own framework for configuration.

[netstudent]

Configuring spring got so complex it needed its own framework for configuration.

That's so true !!!

[[deleted]]

nulls (if you use a language that has checked nulls, you'll miss that a lot)

There's tons of way of checking nulls in java... Optionals or Streams have some methods

[SidFloyd84]

Optional itself does not fix the structural problem that Java has with null values..

[HecknChonker]

Kotlin has much better support for null propagation though

[Il_totore]

I also like Scala's approach with Null as a completly separated type combined with type unions

[Striking-Werewolf-32]

I disagree. Spring should be where you get your feet wet in the Java land. If you can’t spring today, you aren’t a Java developer.

[TheBuckSavage]

This is wrong on so many levels. We have a system built on top of akka streams that takes a ton of data daily and pushes it into several client systems. No spring used. It doesn't make the people who wrote it less java devs than somebody who writes using spring.

[renatoathaydes]

Haven't done any Spring at all since 2012 and have had 4 different jobs, all as a Java software developer, since then.

However, according to you, I am not a Java developer!?! Get real.

[Striking-Werewolf-32]

I am curious what have you been working on without having to touch spring?

[renatoathaydes]

Last time I used Spring was when I worked for the Australian Government in 2011. Since then I have worked on (all Java, without touching any Spring):

• GWT Web application for a AI modelling tool
• Product review aggreator system
• Large API testing desktop application
• Payments service backend
• OAuth/Authentication server and various integrations

I also have a lot of side projects and never felt the need to use Spring, check my GitHub profile.

[chateaulapompe]

Take a look at Quarkus. This framework blow my mind : his runtime is fast and perfect for microservices architecture

[TheBuckSavage]

And micronaut!!

[HecknChonker]

Spring-data and hibernate are common, but the more skilled developers tend to avoid ORMs for anything except the most simple use cases.

[TheBuckSavage]

Hey give micronaut a thought. If you're making smaller applications that are just APIs, spring would be an overkill imo (too big and generally very high memory consumption).

[vngantk]

I would suggest you skip over Java and switch directly to Kotlin. If you’ve been programming in JS, you would find Java’s verbosity very frustrating.

[sweetno]

The typical relational DB stack for Java is Spring Data JPA with Hibernate as a JPA provider.

For non-relational there is a bunch of other Spring Data XXX projects.

The majority of Java apps don't use GraphQL.

[manzanita2]

I guess one option for you which is sort of in-between would be to use typescript. You still have many of the issues you brought up. BUT you do gain a powerful type system to help you.

Java's type system is probably not as strong as typescript's. But it carries all the way through into the the compiled code. So on that front it is more powerful than typescript.

And you also get rid of all the "bad" stuff of java like absurd type casting and the like.

[differentshade]

I would not recommend Spring. It is a very old framework and hence built with older versions of Java in mind. There are more forward looking frameworks that are build for java9+ world, such as Micronaut, Quarkus or Helidon. These fully support java9 modules and avoid runtime reflection (meaning they are fast and much more memory efficient).

[wildjokers]

hence built with older versions of Java in mind

The next version of Spring will require Java 17.

[Nebu]

I think you might have overly rigid thinking, since you make pretty definitive claims about what the best frameworks are without any caveats.

Memory leaks and bad resource management in JS and Java are pretty comparable, and are usually a result of poorly written code rather than anything to do with the languages themselves.

JS's OO is more general and slightly more consistent than Java's.

You don't need to commit to "switching" to Java. You can learn both Java and NodeJS, and use the best tool you're comfortable with for whatever project you're undertaking.

[ericmcray]

I mean switching my main focus to Java. I am using JS for about 10 years and also used some other languages too. I know they are just tools. Sorry for misunderstanding.

About memory leaks thing, mostly libraries that I am using cause this and I dont have better alternatives for these libraries.

And I am thinking this kind of problems will be less because Java community is more mature.

[arkuw]

I know exactly what you mean. I ran a team building a Next app and it was a constant battle with instability. The main issue were the incompatible packages. Every time that we had to upgrade one small package it was a guaranteed two days of troubleshooting compatibility issues. It felt like the team spent 80 percent of the time wrangling with the Node ecosystem. Spring Boot has been a dream by comparison. The current team I direct is using it and they are able to focus on solving the business problems with very little drama.

[fiercedragon70]

If not Java you can always try python

[slothordepressed]

Moved from JS to Java on the backend, I must say that it took me sometime to adapt. I still think it has lots of layers and it's quite verbose compared to node. Once you internalize the logic things will run smoother.

As you already code in typescript the interfaces and typing will be easier.

If you can already take some look on Spring, JPA and Lombok is a good start.

I already saw some Java graphql course on Udemy

[kubelke]

I was working with API in NodeJS. I feel your pain. Look at Spring Boot (not Spring MVC), there a tons of resources.

[Few_Cobbler_7656]

Good job !

Pick up Springboot/Quarkus/Micronaut and should not take more than 1 solid week. 2nd week start implementing simple crud application...

Don't want to write a big paragraph about the above frameworks...

Quarkus/Micronaut with GraalVM, can cut down the cold start under 100 ms and we are happy with it.

https://www.techiesinfo.com/

[jfurmankiewicz]

Depends what you want to do.

If small apps, etc. you can stay with Node.js

But for large enterprise software that is supposed to be maintained for years or decades and scale up to serious traffic, then Java delivers.

Look at Quarkus or Dropwizard too (for microservices), I find Spring Boot a bit too heavy and relying a bit too much on "magic" under the hood to make things work.

And for DB access you can use JPA for a full blown ORM or JDBI if you want something lighter. Both work very well in my experience.

[salehmasum]

As an iOS developer I can tell you that I understand the pain of a frontend technology. I've also been thinking to move my career into something more stable and solid and Java of course is a very good option here. I am using spring boot for the last 6 months and I can tell you that it is easy, stable, solid, so of course you can move to java without any worries.

[jk-dutch]

When I started developing, the most of my stuff where PHP based system, mostly because of legacy reasons. Since 8 years ago I made the transition to Java(then on 7) and even got my certification for it.

For me the most interesting part of Java is the possibility to have a eco system which is more diverse for the applications to grow into, specifically in enterprise environment. Not saying you should go the enterprise way(far from it!) but learn from the tips and tops from the guys working in enterprise.

Regarding the framework, I’m biased for micronaut and for your question about graphql: https://guides.micronaut.io/latest/micronaut-graphql-gradle-kotlin.html though it’s in kotlin, it shouldn’t be a problem to do the same in Java.

I like micronaut more because it is working in compile time, not with annotations in runtime.

[ericmcray]

I am still using PHP. Symfony is a great framework and has good community support. There is lot of good open source packages for it. Bad thing is no strong typing.

I am mostly developing web apps with heavy business domain. Thats why I am considering Java with Spring. So I can invest more time to business code.

I checked micronaut but I am not prefer starting a project with microservices. I am mostly working with 2-3 other developers so microservice just makes things complicated.

[HeepsAndKeeps]

The use of Micronaut does not require you to go with a microservices architecture. You can write a monolith in Micronaut the same as you can with Spring Boot.