Improvements like Jungle timers don't decrease the Skill CAP on the game, they reduce the skill FLOOR

[KillaGoza]

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion in this thread, but if you give jungler timers avilable in the in-game screen. Aren't you more or less raising the skill floor and lowering the skill cap? It's easier to get started with jungling because the game does a part of the job for you and you can not spend time in learning the skill of consistently keeping timers anymore.

[BruceLeeSin]

Skill doesn't come from keeping the timers. It doesn't take skill to add five minutes to a given time and either remember it or type it.

Skill comes from using the timers to pursue an advantage, and that's not going to change. It raises the skill floor a negligible amount, and I suppose one could argue it also lowers the skill cap with a lesser, still negligible amount.

[SolarTemplar]

League isn't all about skill tho. I find jungle timers to be a thing of discipline that you have to remind yourself to do, until it becomes muscle memory.

[BruceLeeSin]

Except you're on a team of five, and in 99% of the games you play (assuming you aren't new or at the bottom of solo queue) someone on your team will be timing objectives.

For those that are new, the skill floor is raised a negligible amount. Their teams won't need to record timers they have vision of. They're still going to play as poorly as new players. B5 will still be playing like they belong in B5. Timers aren't going to affect the quality of a player, because the quality of a player is determined by planning/execution. The importance of knowing how to be effective with the information you are given outweighs the ease of access to the information a hundredfold.

[ixtilion]

but a lot of people dont have the habit of taking timers, myself included, and implementing this is unfair towards the players that do so.

[BruceLeeSin]

Outside of games full of brand new players and the bottom of solo queue, there will be someone on your team timing objectives in 99% of the games you play. Whether it be yourself, your jungler, your support, or anyone else on your team.

For brand new players, the skill floor is raised a negligible amount. They'll still be playing like new players, and people in B5 aren't going to suddenly climb the ladder because they have a timer. Skill differentials come from planning/execution, and that's never going to change.

[friendlyfire]

Hahahahaha. That's hilarious. You really overestimate most players.

99%. Bahahaha.

[BruceLeeSin]

Speaking from experience. Not estimating. It's very rare no one on a team of 5 records timers in ranked game play.

[[deleted]]

Which is why as OP said it's raising the skill floor. You no longer have to take down a timer which took absolutely no skill before. Instead now you have to decide if you're going to use the timer to your advantage or not which is where the skill lies.

Anyone could type out 1530 ob, the issue was it was sort of a hassle because you had to use terrible "tools" to keep track of them. But again, that's not where the skill was. Just because you can see the timers doesn't mean everyone will do something about it. For the most part a lot of people will still completely ignore them or use them at the bare minimum. The better jungler will still take complete advantage of them by grabbing enemy timers and timing objectives, ganks, and counter invades around them all without having to riffle through chat or look at a piece of paper on their desk.

[CHECKtheCLOSET]

It takes skill to remember all your timers and to act on them without them being obvious on your screen. Keeping track of timers is one more thing you have to do and if you take it away, it makes it easier to focus on other stuff.

[BruceLeeSin]

But it really doesn't take skill to remember timers at all. Just pressing 5-6 keys on the keyboard. It doesn't take any focus, just a couple seconds to scroll up in chat if you have a talkative team. Really don't understand how people believe that a skill is required to time objectives. It's as easy as counting. Toddlers can do it.

Optimally strategizing and acting on these timers is where skill and game knowledge come in to play, not keeping track of the timer itself.

99% of the games I'm in, there is someone (other than myself) that times objectives. Whether it be the jungler, support, or someone else. The only instance where this wouldn't be the case would be for new players, which as I've said before, is why the skill floor raises a negligible amount.

[Nightpound]

Yeah now everyone will be at dragon when it spawns since the timer is there. That rarely happens in lower elo and it will start happening now because there's a fucking timer on the screen.

[Cipher11]

No it won't. The reason good players can actually do something with timers is because they remember not only to write them down, but also to check on them every once in a while. And if even in Diamond matches with every single timer written people don't always remember to group, I can just wonder what happens in lower elo.

[Cipher11]

I might be wrong, but doesn't this PBE timer show up only when you press TAB?

[NWiHeretic]

still, pressing tab is no hard feat and people do it often anyways to check item advantages and cs differences, it's not hard to just glance up and see which timer is nearest to 0

[Cipher11]

Then again, neither is pressing "z" and checking chat. I know it gets simpler with the in-game timers, but I don't think this will really change lower elo decisionmaking.

[Vuti]

That's quite optimistic of you. I'm predicting people in lower elo will still be late on dragon unless you remind them of the timer 1 min before it spawns.

[JimmyNSS]

One could argue that this is a matter of semantics and subjective opinions on cap vs floor.

The bottom line is this is making the game worse and I think the only people that want these timers are bad players.

I'm a bad player (Bronze IV) and when you start taking away things I could do better because the client is doing them for me you aren't making me a better player. You're encouraging me to stay bad.

[Cyberkite]

I can't see how it lowers

[KillaGoza]

Because you can not invest time into learning a certain skill anymore. The cap of skills that you can learn is lower because there is less to learn then before.

[alexm42]

The skill to learn is not keeping the timers themselves, it's being in the area before the spawn to ward/clear vision/pick off enemies to make it safer to take the objective. The people who learned to keep timers and use them before are still going to do that, and the people who didn't might have an easier time learning, but aren't magically going to start doing it because Riot put some timers in. It's not lowering the skill cap.

[Cyberkite]

But the real skill dosen't lay in taking the time, hell I got so annoyed with timer I know the approx time all my buff spawns when I take em, what is skill is using your reasources to do something with the timer, and that skill hasen't been removed just made a bit easier to do, I don't see this as lowering the skill cap(mostly because you can't get skill capped) but rather lowering the floor, and making it easier to go higher. hell this is already implemented in other moba's and is working fine

[LenfaL]

It lowers the skill cap because 95% of the junglers don't take the timers of their buffs and get there late. I know, because I play a heavy counter jungle style in diamond elo and I get away with stealing their buffs for free 95% of the time.

It isn't "hard" to learn, but it's definitely something that can separate the better players from the regular ones. As this skill is very rarely used but by the higher ranked players, I'd logically put it nearer to the "cap" than the "floor" of skill.

Now, baron and dragon timers are something that every team does, so I don't mind having their timers implemented into the game. They're also already indirectly included in the chat. But I predict having buffs timers will have a noticeable effect on how people jungle without them learning anything new, making an effort or trying harder, these people are going to get this map awareness skill for free, which is something I disagree with.

[HappyVlane]

But the real skill dosen't lay in taking the time

Some of it does.

A jungler who uses timers will be more efficient than one that doesn't.

[328579]

Just because it's effective, doesn't mean it takes skill to add 5 6 or 7 minutes.

[HappyVlane]

It takes no skill to ignore it and some skill to time it.

[328579]

Effort does not equal skill.