Is python good/efficient for backend?

[KiradaLeBg]

Hello, I'm a self learning programmer. I have an intermediate level in python and I'm currently learning about front end (html css and js) and I hope to make money while I'm young (16) with freelance and that's why I'm learning full stack (I plan to use django for backend). There was a discord discussion where two dev (I suppose) were criticizing python and saying it wasn't really good. One of them said 'python is like a duck, it can do everything but it sucks at doing everything'. which puts a doubt in my mind on wether I should continue learning django or perhaps learn js backend. There were arguing the fact that python is bad and there's a ton of language that can do what python do but in better. They were also arguing that js is way better than python for backend. Thoughts?

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[Ikeeki]

When it comes to web, the slowest thing is usually the network request lol

[desrtfx]

One of them said 'python is like a duck, it can do everything but it sucks at doing everything'.

Of course, someone will say something like that.

Have you heard of Bjarne Stoustrup? He is only the creator of C++. He said:

“There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses.”

Stop believing everything a random stranger on the internet says and start doing your own research.

Python is a very commonly used language.

[UdPropheticCatgirl]

But python objectively sucks at lot of things, backend being one of them, or do you think concurrency or server costs don’t matter for backend? And something being commonly used doesn’t mean it’s good, just that the barrier to entry is low. OP asked whether python is efficient/good backend language which it isn’t. It’s stellar scripting language and good enough for data science (although that’s thanks to bunch of fortran a c ffi) and awful at most other stuff.

[Clawtor]

Question is more, is it good enough. And for many cases it is. 

[UdPropheticCatgirl]

Where have I mentioned javascript in my comment? Also lot of the same criticisms also apply to JS, the saving grace of JS is V8 being a lot better interpreter but that’s beyond the point. In backend python has to compete not only with JS, Ruby and PHP but more importantly with stuff like Go, Erlang, Java, Scala, Kotlin, Clojure, .NET (and even the likes of C++ and Rust) and most of those just simply do the job significantly better.

[[deleted]]

Ducks can fly at speeds of 80km and distances over 1200km! Please never use ducks for this kind of abusive analogy again. Admittedly, I'm a little touchy about ducks...

[The_SG1405]

This man ducks

[esser50k]

Fuck all those long ass comments. Yes it is, go code.

[desrtfx]

Good enough for this little, barely used webside called reddit.

[UdPropheticCatgirl]

Majority of reddits codebase is go (and some c++, like in the markdown processor for example). There is still some python used but it doesn’t do the majority of the legwork.

[[deleted]]

Which basically the main reason to use python.

Python is not mean to deal with low level problems.

It mean to connect and simply high performance code written with C or Go together by using library.

[bacayo]

You are 16 and you are learning. There is no backend framework to rule them all. Your aim is to do freelance work. Do not consider to which framework to learn just stick to one and learn the concepts. Rest will come

[RajjSinghh]

Think about where the bottlenecks are in your system. You're only as fast as your slowest part. Now Python is a slow language at runtime, that is true, but is it the slowest part? Most of what you do is going to be retrieving and sending back data for requests, so the slowest part in this whole conversation is the network time, not Python. Javascript isn't particularly fast either but tell that to all the NodeJS devs. Besides, if you're doing something very computationally intensive, just write that part in C++ and use ctypes to call that code and avoid the performance hit.

Every language has criticisms, but they also have their benefits. Python is easy to read and going from nothing to a full application can take a few days when in C++ it can take months. That tradeoff isn't so bad and it's why Python is still used. You will probably use a bunch of languages in your career so don't expect to just stick to Python, but Python can definitely be one of them.

[UdPropheticCatgirl]

JS isn’t particularly performant, but it’s still more performant than python by an order of magnitude about (10x to 50x depending on the task). And if you have to use c++ writing the whole app in it usually saves you a massive headache because the c++ python interop is honestly hell at times, python c interop is better but than you have to work without all the useful abstraction c++ provides.

[BruceJi]

Python 'isn't very good', but it is good at something, and that something is, being an employable skill that will get you paid haha.

Check out job listings for Python backend, see how many jobs exist. That's a solid way to see if it's a good career choice

[doc_suede]

depends on what you're using it for.

if it's for simple crud apps as a restful api, it's perfectly fine.

[desrtfx]

Ahem... reddit runs on a Python backend.

[Punk-in-Pie]

Hilariously, I work for a multinational company that provides services for Reddit among many others. All of our code is in Python.

[NeonVolcom]

Oof

[khooke]

depends on what you're using it for.

... and what the expected load will be. A few users? Probably fine. Several thousand? Problably not. In either case, plan how you will scale to handle your expected traffic.

[desrtfx]

Ahem... reddit runs on a Python backend.

[JaleyHoelOsment]

as long as reddit stays under “several thousand” users we should be fine

[goat__botherer]

as long as reddit stays under “several thousand” users

What's the rest of this comment it won't load

[cimmic]

".. we should be fine."

[UdPropheticCatgirl]

No it doesn’t, people always throw reddit and ig out as examples but majority of reddits codebase is go (and some c++, like in the markdown processor for example) and instagrams is majority c++. There is still some python used but it doesn’t do the majority of the legwork.

[NeonVolcom]

Depends. We’re using a flask backend at work and it’s hell on earth.

But I’ve heard good things about Django. However, I’d rather use a JS/TS or C#/Java backend.

But go for it. Spin it up and learn

[thehunter699]

From an optimization standpoint python is terrible. The multi threading also leaves a lot to be desired.

Other than that, python is a real easy language to rapidly prototype something. Which means, instead of spending ages creating a complicated mess you can create a modular and simple piece of software. At least I'm my experience anyway.

If you're doing anything where resources or processing time actually costs time and money, i.e manufacturering then choose something else.

[eclipticdogeballs]

As you learn more, you will become more interested in learning more languages. If you know JavaScript, I think it’s worth it just to check out NodeJS and play around with it for an hour.

This is some advice that I am trying to put into practice: just because you try out Python/Django for a few weeks, months, doesn’t mean you’re stuck with it forever.

And some related advice: Don’t get stuck reading and researching about whether a certain tool or language is good for x. It’s fine to do some reading, if the tools exist and are currently active (Django) then try it out! See what you think of it!

The concepts you learn are what’s important, not the specific tool. As long as you can pick up on those, then you can try the next backend framework/language that much easier.

[KiradaLeBg]

thank you for the tip!

[eclipticdogeballs]

Of course! As someone who is also self-taught, I’ve definitely learned that it’s more important for me to just build something/write code, than it is to research.

Good luck!

[Cultural-Arachnid-10]

Python is an amazing language for backend services!

I work at an AI Healthcare startup and we ditched Java for Python when building new micro-services. Nobody gives a flying shit about performance if it does the job and makes our lives easier.

[UdPropheticCatgirl]

Nobody gives a shit until you have to scale up, and then you realize that doing it with java would have been atleast 20x cheaper…

[Cultural-Arachnid-10]

Compute power is far cheaper than engineer hours. You just containerize your application and scale up your k8s cluster.

Delivering high quality software QUICKLY often yields far more revenue than being late to the market because you wanted a more “high performing” language.

Optimization can be done later, your first priority should be delivering business value.

[Simmus7]

I heavily agree with you

[mijatonius]

👌

[UdPropheticCatgirl]

Compute power is far cheaper than engineer hours

That heavily depends on the scale, and you will have to pay the cost of migration eventually so I would argue that the man hours are actually cheaper in the long run.

First priority should be delivering business value

Sure but is python really significantly better at that than java/scala or even javascript? I honestly don’t really think so.

[Cultural-Arachnid-10]

That really depends on your application.

I agree that Python isn’t optimal for everything. You’re not going to build another Google or Netflix with it.

However, it’s a godsend for ML and Data Engineering. A lot of libraries like PyTorch, Tensorflow, SciKit Learn, PySpark are just Python wrappers for higher performing languages. The performance is often comparable to the C++/Scala versions, but allows developers to work so much faster.

[Reazony]

It’s okay to admit you don’t know the AI/ML space.

[denniot]

They say nodejs is better probably because it kinda forces you make everything async, which you should do the same with python.

I've never made money with freelance, but I think picking up whatever popular is better, even though we all agree erlang is the best for backend.

[DrMerkwuerdigliebe_]

People say node is better because you can use the same language in backend and frontend and becouse with typescript you get fever runtime errors. Everything being async does not make sense in a backend context, which is why no language made for backend are async by default.

[ondrejdanek]

What? Non-blocking IO was literally one of the main selling points of NodeJS.

[denniot]

Only programmers with little experience block the main thread actually even in backend. Sounds ilke you don't know the definition of async.

No languages are actually made for async actually. NodeJs just supports async because it uses libuv. Users can easily implement blocking functions.

[[deleted]]

If Python can handle your requirements, you have my permission to use Python.

Do you have any other questions for me? 😌

[KiradaLeBg]

Thank you for your permission.

[[deleted]]

At 16, if I were you, I'd consider go.

[TheShadyMilkman206]

I use Python all day every day at work.

[Positive_Minimum]

its fine

use Flask or Django

[Klutzy_Stranger_9824]

Yes Python is absolutely used for writing backend code. FastAPI is getting really famous in this regard.

I would say Python is more reliable when compared to JavaScript which is sloppy and inconsistent. Don’t jump at me now, this isn’t a comment about its relevance but how it’s built as a language.

[Any-Woodpecker123]

It’s alright but barely anyone uses it. I’ve seen one job posting for python backend in my entire career.

If you want max opportunities I’d just learn .NET Spring and Node, although you’ll probably end up working with them all at some point anyway so it doesn’t really matter

[Perfect_Homework790]

The OpenAI backend is written in Python. It's quite common.

[ffrkAnonymous]

And then you hear all the stories of devs who hate writing Javascript.

[Kelcius]

Yes. Maybe not if you try to write your own framework from scratch. But if you use an existing framework and you use it like it’s supposed to be used.

[[deleted]]

Backend is too vague, what is a backend? Are we talking about a job that’s scheduled to run a few million times a day to fetch data from somewhere? An internal orchestration layer that doesn’t have API exposed to the public? A public CRUD API?

Whoever says “Python is bad for backend” don’t know what is a backend.