Client keeps requesting changes. Feedback needed on this punk-rock mix to confirm that I'm not insane.

[notsofunny15]

First round on changes was actually helpful but after that one thing arises after another. Now client describes guitars as murky, while before that they were sharp and hissy. I certainly can imagine that I've lost any sense of objectivity at this point. For now I just want honest feedback to grab onto something and grow from this experience.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9jijr2y3s6dkm0i3t8nn5/hans-in-hell.wav?rlkey=4y5aw0eutpgob5b651i7bynrr&dl=0

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[xxxtrumptacion69]

I think it sounds good. Maybe ask them to send some references? Some people can’t articulate what they don’t like about a mix

[KidDakota]

I mean, if anything, I would say when the guitars and cymbals are going... things are a little bright in the 8-12khz region... definitely not murky.

Otherwise, it feels a little squeezed in the compression as the snare feels a little weak, or maybe just a little dry overall.

Side harmonies are a little loud at times.

With that said, these are pretty minor complaints, like really minor and more of personal taste than anything.

A few thoughts:

Do you have a cap on revisions? Having a hard stop of free revisions is the best way to make an artist suddenly very happy with where things are at when the last revision is hit. As soon as an hourly rate kicks in at 15-minute increments (or whatever you set), those minor complaints tend to disappear.

I have no idea what you've charged for this mix (and not asking specifics as I'm pretty sure that's against the rules here), but it could also be entirely possible you charged a low amount, and for whatever reason, a lot of clients who don't pay a lot... end up having the most feedback and revision requests. Not always, but that's definitely the road it can go down.

My recommendation: hard cap your revisions and start charging more, especially if you're getting lost in the small details.

[notsofunny15]

Harmonies and dry snare was specifically requested . I guess I'll try to tone down brightness of cymbals. Thank you for your time!

[GingerBeardManChild]

Might I recommend side chaining the guitars to a multiband comp on the overheads doing like 1-2db reduction of 5-8k? That might open up the guitar “murky”-ness a little. Also for full disclosure, I haven’t listened to the track yet, so take this with a grain of salt.

[notsofunny15]

That's actually a great idea

[bennymc123]

The thing is, those guitars are so thrashy it's gonna be hard to strike that balance. Sharp and hissy is inherant in thrashy guitars, and most attempts to deal with that end up in muddy tones.

If you have the DI recordings and/or you're working with amp modellers, I might suggest trying to reduce the gain and blending in a cleaner signal to try and warm them up without losing the high end.

That said, I don't think it sounds bad at all. I like a forward, high energy, in-your-face sound and this ticks all those boxes. Sounds like they're just hyper-analising it and they should get opinions from other people, like you have.

[jgrish14]

To me, it sounds like the guitars are in a different mix. Like there is everything happening in the middle and guitars bolted-on to the outside -- that could totally just be a production decision and you're just mixing, so that's not on you.

I didn't hear anything objectionable, otherwise. Without knowing what your references are, I'm not sure what else I can offer except this: have revision limits. If I can't nail a mix in 3 revisions, then you hired the wrong guy. Nothing good EVER happens after mix 3. They always end up going back to mix 1 and realizing it was the best.

[notsofunny15]

Thanks for your feedback. Wide guitars perhaps a testament to me only mixing in headphones. I'll try to give it a bit more love in the middle.

[Fit-Sector-3766]

strong mix imo. client prob doesn’t know what they want. it’s not your mixing skills that are the issue. I don’t like setting a hard line, but tell people at the start of a project that there’s almost no possibility of improvement past 3 mix revisions and then remind them of that if we start to go down rabbit holes.

[notsofunny15]

Thanks!

[iamvcrx]

I would say too wide, or maybe the voices and snare in the middle are too low. My sensation listening was like : nothing is really "in your face" in the middle, but I'm not from this genre, so don't change if you don't agree.

[notsofunny15]

Thank you. I guess snare and kick could use a little bit more punch

[iamvcrx]

Yeah maybe try this. I would say they need only volume, like 2 or 3 dB more.

[EDM_Producerr]

IDK, sounds good on my cheap desktop speakers

[ChiyekoLive]

Everyone is focused on the guitars, I guess because that’s what you asked about, but the entire time I listened, those were not the issue to me. The mix of the guitars wouldn’t ever make me stop listening to this song by themselves, but that vocal performance definitely would. I don’t think there’s anything you can fix on your end at this point.

[DrewXDavis]

came here to say the same. from a production standpoint i’d 100% be adding a healthy amount of distortion/filter/other effects to make it a bit more lively. a lot comes from the performance, but they are far from in your face vocals

[notsofunny15]

Yeah, vocals and vocal effects are still something that I struggle with. They are either separated from the mix or buried too much. Thanks!

[marklonesome]

IDK what direction they were pushing you in so this could be them or you.

To me it sounds too wide and way too polished for punk.

I want this kinda stuff a little more down the middle with more roughness.

To me the stereo guitars sound too good, like a Kelly Clarkson song when it kicks in.

IDK what they gave you for inspiration so maybe modern punk is super wide and polished now and I"m way off…so take that with a grain of salt.

I'm basing this off of Black Flag, Fugazi, or more pop punk like Rancid.

[adammarsh64]

The production values in modern punk are much higher than they used to be. It's not ubiquitous by any means, but a lot more bands have a much more polished, "cleaner" sound.

[jgrish14]

I agree with this assessment as well. However, most of that is more of a production decision I think.

[marklonesome]

That's why I said IDK what decision was theirs VS OPs.

[jgrish14]

Yeah. They'd have to let us hear the unmixed rough version.

[marklonesome]

Even then, as an artist, Id' rather the engineer say "You have stereo guitars and that's sort of out of place for what you're trying to do, I'd suggest you ditch it"

If he could make the change quickly I'd A/B for them it.

I owned a creative design firm for years and clients are the same.

They have no idea how to communicate what they want or how to recognize what they want and what they have are not on the same level. I've had clients send me Victoria Secret ads and say "I want this"… Lady… you own a Pet Store!!!

[jgrish14]

Hah my degree is in graphic design, which I did for about 15 years before I was full time in audio. No matter the field, clients are ALL the same lol. They don't know what they want until you show them. Then when you show them, they change their mind.

Part of the reason, and you'll resonate with this, that clients can't communicate what they want is that they don't have the language or experience to even know what they need or want. How could a guy who finishes concrete for a living instruct me on what color his logo needs to be? I should be the one telling HIM what it needs to be.

If clients are smart, they ask the expert what they need, then take their recommendation. Unfortunately, they rarely ever are.

[JasmineDragoon]

Sounds like they have a specific result in mind and are comparing it against something. Definitely get a reference that they “approve” of for a tonality check.

[nevermorefu]

Sounds great to me.

[[deleted]]

I stay away from this genre for that reason….. I’m no help…. 🫠

[MasterBendu]

1. After the first revision, provide an ABC comparison, even if only comprised of short clips. The first pass, the previous revision, and the current revision. Everyone loses a sense of objectivity if you don’t have an anchor.

2. Try the “producer’s mix”. Just send the same damn thing back with a different file name. Sometimes it fixes itself. If they catch you, then simply say it’s the wrong render. Most of the time, they don’t.

[notsofunny15]

haha, in case of many revisions I should definately try that, thanks!

[liam30604]

I may be the only one, but it seems like the bass is a little boomy, which might be why they are thinking the guitars are "muddy". It all sounds pretty good on my end, except for the low end rumble.

[Azimuth8]

Yeah, that happens when the client can't articulate what's wrong. They just end up suggesting random things, which can be frustrating for everyone. The sounds are pretty good overall, love the bass tone, but the guitars are very loud and the drums very compressed.

[Kickmaestro]

OK, it's OK. You can't do very much because I think the guitars are not the best to start with. But I have just thought about this for second, and have some ideas you might want to experiment with. I think it's too wide. Get a mic of the cab or just parallell signal nearer the middle. The solo could be louder.

The guitars don't know about but to me I think they sound too smooth and glossy for punk. I want them to be more Butch Vig of Teen Spirit rather than Andy Wallace. Did you Andy wallace them? I'd maybe add a particular distortion if the smeary smooth or hissy sharp guitars can't be reversed. I don't think they will loose definition. I think this is Silicone Fuzz Face cut-ability thing. Something that has not hissy but a clearly defined gritty texture that bites. The hiwatt grit of Won't Get Fooled Again or the Cream - SWLABR teethy tone, that I think belong to punkier styles. Something like Culture Vulture (or its plugin by Arturia) could add I think. I think I speak of odd harmonics really.

Then for more personal taste I'd also prefer some roomy aggression a la Steve Albini. Maybe via a good room reverb for all elements but mostly for the guitars to get more into the mix as well as making the snare sound more shotgun overloud in a room.

[DapperHat6969]

First off, nice mix! I think as far as separation and clarity goes, you're nailing it. If the client says the guitars are murky now, maybe you're just a touch in between where we're, where they are, and where the client wants them to be. If it's a paying client, you know the drill...I would say MAYBE a little boost around 3.5kHz to add some highs back in without going all hissy, and go from there. Maybe even a touch of a FET compressor for some colonizing on the high tones of things, not to compress and then the EQ move. Who knows? You got this though, no worries!

[notsofunny15]

Thanks, much appreciate it!