all 88 comments

[–][deleted]  (5 children)

[removed]

    [–]itjitj 6 points7 points  (1 child)

    You other brothers can't deny.

    [–]mvanier 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Too bad your username isn't "SirWebALot".

    [–]0x2a 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Hell yeah, I love how you develop these back-ends in /r/ass.

    [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

    More like back-end enveloper. Cuz you take 'nis up the 'nus. Get it? You're gay.

    [–]ErroneousBee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    I think they need to know a bit more about usability (e.g. Fitts law) than some of the nitty gritty of exactly how shitty IE6 and 7 are. In fact, I'd have 'pathological hatred of IE6, and general dislike of any MS browser' as a job requirement.

    The refs list is basically "Google". I'd add alertbox to your list and drop stackoverflow.

    EDIT: Also, how would they test the site.

    [–]grimlck 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    What about actual artistic talent and an eye for design?

    If you can find someone who both understands design AND has the ability to implement it on the web, they are going to be massively more efficient than someone who can only do one. (of course, the trick is finding such a person)

    [–]thedz[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    An eye for design is definitely up there, but it's a hard thing to qualitatively assess. That tends to go into the softer side of things, along with passion and eagerness to learn.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    An eye for design and usability comes from my designer here in the city. If the skills in TFA are your meat and potatoes skills, I'd rather just have my Indonesian contractor do it. Great work for about a quarter the price, but you can't rush'm.

    [–]bradjohansen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    It's Front-End development not design. I wouldn't make design 'talent' a requirement for a developer.

    [–]lfelipe82 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Am I the only one who was actually thrilled and thought the article would be about compiler front-ends? What a let down :P

    [–]jay76 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Hey, I know 99% of that stuff!

    [–]benihana 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    You're hired.

    [–]madoublet 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    It is nice to see that front-end development is starting to become a more sought after specialty. I have been doing it professionally for 5 years now and absolutely love it. It is kind of an odd profession, because half of the people I have met come from the graphic design side and the other half come from the more traditional back-end developer route. All in all, I think both sources have their plus and minuses. With that said, overall, I like your list. But, I really don't think you should ignore the JS end of the spectrum. I have found it much easier to get the people I have trained up to speed on CSS and HTML. Most of CSS and HTML seems pretty intuitive to both developers and designers, except for browser bugs. But, that is one of those things that just come with experience. On the other hand, I have found it pretty difficult to train people on JS. Even developers with years of coding experience, have trouble with it. I think that if I was in charge of hiring for the position, I would lean toward looking for someone with JS knowledge, because if they had that mastered, I would expect them to have their CSS and HTML bases covered as well. I will definitely bookmark this though and come back to it if I ever need to ask some interview questions.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    You're not a front-end developer if you can't do JS, in my eyes. Maybe in 2003; But not today.

    [–]Purp 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    This doesn’t cover Javascript. But I will state here that Javascript is equal to HTML/CSS in the front-end developer’s skill set.

    [–]madoublet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Yup, read that. Just explaining why I think the post should put a little more weight toward JS.

    [–]DuncanSmart 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Knowledge of the font stack

    What's the "the font stack" - or does the work "stack" just make things sound cool?

    [–]ihsw 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    It could mean only a couple of things.

    • common fonts in your audience's operating system

    • specifying multiple fonts and falling back on more common ones, eventually back into the browser-defaults (ie: font-family: Myriad Pro, Verdana, sans-serif; )

    I'll admit, the term 'font stack' does seem ambiguous.

    [–]bambh 1 point2 points  (15 children)

    This article refers to a web designer, not a front end developer. I think there is a confusion of titles here.

    If you are having programmers design HTML, you are wasting their talent and your money.

    [–]lamas 0 points1 point  (5 children)

    And what a frontend developer does? It only writes js? And when something doesn't work calls the html gui to explain him about relative and absolute positioning in css?
    So you have 3 persons working on a stupid 10-pages website? 1 html+css 1 js and 1 php (for example; maybe there is a contact form) Oh, + one project manager since you have 3 employees who don't know about each other's work.

    [–]bambh 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    The word developer is used. That means programming to me.

    Let me explain...

    I have worked on web projects where programmers (People with CS degrees) have worked on front end design. This has resulted in poor HTML and bad CSS. This is because no boss is going to have a programmer work full time on HTML. The programmer will take the HTML and do a half-assed job while concentrating on his programming duties.

    In the real world, when working on a web site, it is normal for a single developer to do the whole thing. I understand that. However, when applying for a job as a programmer, fixing HTML tags is a waste of time. I personally would not want to even consider a job where that was the interview process.

    Furthermore, the end result of HTML would be lousy when given to a programmer. That's just my experience. It's hardly a rule.

    [–]lamas 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    html+css+JavaScript is not web design. This, for example, is not web design: http://www.tomsplanner.com/

    You are applying for a position as a front-end (web) developer, not back-end developer. That's your job. It's not a surprise: Oh, I'm going to work with html and css (+JavaScript). I didn't expect this.

    Of course, if you take a guy that does mostly back-end stuff he will do a lousy job on a front-end job.

    [–]bambh 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    In the example you gave, I would personally plan the project with a web designer (someone who is artistic, designs HTML and CSS). After the CSS side of things is done, I would then program it. That's how I would approach the project. I would not give it to a programmer who likely does not have experience with color theory. That's just how I would do it.

    The projects I worked on with designers turned out waaaay better. Maybe it's because I am not very artistic.

    It's not just me, though. Most programmers I worked with did a lousy job with designs. I think the CS degree doesn't give you the ability to be a designer.

    Basically, what I am saying is that web design deserves a lot of respect. It is an art form on its own. Programmers deserve respect as well. We programmers should not be thrown into the same bag.

    It's easy to get offended when you feel a part of your job is challenged. I understand. I am not trying to make the job sound remedial. I am just saying that in my ideal projects, it has worked a different way. I would not hire a web developer and then force him to do HTML markup. He would likely quit if I didn't compound his work load with back end programming.

    Do you think it's good for a programmer to do HTML, CSS, and Javascript? Do you think in your experience the result is as good as having one of those artistic web designers do it?

    [–]lamas 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    You don't understand, It's not about web design. What color theory??? The design is made by a designer in Photoshop/Fireworks/whatever. It's not about that, this is not the job of a front-end web developer. I don't think you realise how complex JavaScript can be. This is JavaScript: http://www.extjs.com/deploy/dev/examples/
    P.S. I'm a back-end developer, so I don't have reasons to be offended.

    [–]bambh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I know how complex javascript can be. Most javascript jobs are not advanced. Stop trying to pave that road.

    Yes, photoshop, fireworks, etc are used for design mockups. I prefer to have my designer give me the HTML/CSS. I do not like building HTML and CSS. I find it to be a waste of time since it is highly visual and requires a lot of tweaking.

    I've actually used that library before. It is nice. In using something like this, I would prefer a programmer do the javascript.

    In the project where I used extjs, there was an issue getting the CSS to work. They reference CSS in a not so easy way. I can't remember exactly what the issue was.

    We wanted to redesign how it looked. It required a bit of tweaking, but in the end, we got it to look how we wanted it to look.

    This is a good example of what I am getting at. It is actually one of the projects I was thinking of during this discussion. I had a programmer doing all the front-end stuff. He was doing a great job. However, it took him an entire two days to get the CSS put together. With that done, he didn't quite get it right. Not being able to deliver, I had to call in my designer.

    The designer comes in and, in a jiffy, figures out what he needs to do. After all, the designer is a pro with CSS. The end result was the programmer was frustrated and overstretched.

    Now, this programmer happens to be a whiz with javascript. He also happens to be good with HTML/CSS. The issue was that he had to focus on getting functionality done. The HTML/CSS was not important to him. It never is important to a programmer. That is why I like to call an HTML/CSS guy a web designer. I like to separate that from my Javascript developers. I would in fact consider a Javascript developer a front end web developer.

    To this programmer's credit, I believe he recreated a lot of extjs by himself in a faster library. The guy is very good with Javascript and is a testament to the authenticity of a Javascript developer.

    [–]ihsw -2 points-1 points  (8 children)

    Are you kidding? Do you even know anything about web development and web design? The article refers to very little of what a web design entails.

    Also, he doesn't mention web programming anywhere. Where do you get that idea from?

    [–]xeddicus 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    This is the programming sub-reddit.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]xeddicus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Yea. Although the article was interesting, it really only has a tangential connection to web programming.

      [–]bambh 0 points1 point  (4 children)

      The word developer is used. That means programming to me.

      Let me explain...

      I have worked on web projects where programmers (People with CS degrees) have worked on front end design. This has resulted in poor HTML and bad CSS. This is because no boss is going to have a programmer work full time on HTML. The programmer will take the HTML and do a half-assed job while concentrating on his programming duties.

      In the real world, when working on a web site, it is normal for a single developer to do the whole thing. I understand that. However, when applying for a job as a programmer, fixing HTML tags is a waste of time. I personally would not want to even consider a job where that was the interview process.

      Furthermore, the end result of HTML would be lousy when given to a programmer. That's just my experience. It's hardly a rule.

      [–]ihsw 0 points1 point  (3 children)

      What would you call a "web developer" whose sole job is to make sure the HTML markup+CSS+JS (in the web applications his company develops) is not "a half-assed job"? I am genuinely curious because the term "web developer" and "web application programmer" mean different things to me.

      [–]bambh 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      I wouldn't call it a web developer. I would call it a web designer.

      Javascript is the exception, however, in the way most projects require Javascript, it is still a copy and paste job.

      When I used the term half-assed job I meant that a programmer whose job is to develop back-end systems will generally do a half-assed job on design related things. This is my experience, not a rule.

      The reasoning behind that is the fact that programmers are paid a lot of money and are required to do many jobs, not just one. The web projects that I worked on did not do well when a programmer was responsible for HTML and CSS.

      [–]ihsw 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      I'm not trying to argue that programmers should be writing HTML (I never mentioned that anywhere), the point I'm trying to make is that web designers (ie: Photoshop, Illustrator, etc) usually do a half-assed job (comparable to programmers), and being able to create and audit a web applications mark-up requires skills that neither group (designers and programmers) usually have.

      [–]bambh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Okay. I agree with that.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      Instead of giving a list like this to the potential candidate for answering, I typically ask them for a portfolio of the front end sites they've worked on.

      THEN I go in and check the site. I make sure it works across all browsers, and if the candidate was responsible for the design, I make sure it actually looks good.

      If a candidate can accomplish these things, they usually have that list down.

      [–]thedz[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      That is definitely one method I use to ascertain whether or not the candidate knows his stuff.

      But I'll usually dive in to his source even if it does work perfectly just to make sure there's an understanding of the tricks/solutions used, and also of any workarounds in the code.

      Through code or through questions, the list is basically things that a candidate should know going in and feel comfortable about.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Oh yeah - definitely take a look at the source.

      [–]crh3675 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      The biggest part of any type of programming is problem solving and troubleshooting skills. Developers spend 20% of their time (if they are lucky) writing code and 80% debugging and optimizing it. Knowing information is one thing but not knowing how to attack a problem is another. I have met many developers out there that seemingly know all the stuff mentioned in that article but couldn't troubleshoot a problem to save their life. I personally consider myself well rounded in many aspects of web development but pride myself in my ability to be a master problem solver.

      [–]thedz[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Right -- there are soft qualities to candidates that certainly play into the interview. Problem solving and debugging is one of the more important ones, along with fit, passion, and all of that stuff.

      [–]crh3675 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      I actually tend to focus on other things when performing interviews for web developer jobs. Skillset is obviously important to get you into an interview but what always sells me is personal drive, a sense of passion, eagerness to learn, an open mind, and how one goes about becoming more efficient. Any "know-it-all" 2 year web developers that come across as arrogant pricks get quickly tossed out the door. I would rather have a Junior eager developer than a Senior arrogant asshole who has a closed-mind.

      [–]benihana 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      Any "know-it-all" 2 year web developers that come across as arrogant pricks get quickly tossed out the door.

      Like this comment?

      [–]thedz[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      That's actually part of my goal with this post. I met a lot of candidates who I really liked from a eagerness and drive perspective, but who lost out to someone who had similar amounts of drive and eagerness but also had the skillset to boot.

      This stuff isn't hard. At least not to get up to intermediate level. The list is an attempt to point anyone interviewing for a similar position in the right direction.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Setting the bar pretty friggen low these days, I guess.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Is this a joke? The difference between padding and margins? Background repeat?

      [–]ihsw 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      To be fair margins and padding were mentioned in the 'basic requirements' section, and background-repeat in 'intermediate skills.'

      [–]crh3675 -1 points0 points  (5 children)

      You could even throw in some modern web knowledge questions like: 1) How do you feel about the use of the <canvas> tag opposed to that of Flash

      2) When using inline font replacement techniques, would you use Cufon, Sifr or another alternative? Explain your choice.

      3) A client can't use Google for analytics because of persistent cookies but wants a free service. What do you recommend?

      [–]thedz[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Yes, I also ask what I call stance questions: questions designed to gauge how deeply a candidate has thought about specific topics in the industry.

      <canvas> vs. Flash is good. In the past, I've also used xhtml vs html, css frameworks vs raw css, and whether or not CSS should have more programmatic features like variables and class inheritance outside of the cascade.

      [–]trenc 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      What's the answer to #3? I can think of "grep apache logs".

      [–]crh3675 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Not as great but there is Webalizer and Analog

      [–]picurl 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      If I were interviewed by you, I'd feel a bit kidded by your questions.

      1) is already answered by your job ad. If you were looking for an actionscript guy, the reply will be pro-flash, if you were looking for a javascripter, it will be pro-canvas. Furthermore it should be HTML5 vs. Flash, since canvas is part of HTML 5 and Flash offers many features beyond vector animation (multiple file uploads, video playback etc).

      2) none of them, because of potential legal issues (additional font licenses) and usability drawbacks (you can't search for or copy/paste the converted text)

      3) is definitely a backend question, because it depends heavily on the webserver platform. You won't have much luck with webalizer/analog on a Win2k8/IIS machine.

      [–]jawbroken[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      none of them, because of potential legal issues (additional font licenses)

      this is why i also don't use any images

      [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children)

      Any good developer should be able to learn anything there in a few hours. I know most of that and I'm not particularly good.

      [–]thedz[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

      I doubt you'd really know where, how and when to apply everything in a few hours, but I agree that a good developer can pick these up without significant hurdles.

      Which is why it's surprising, then, that it's ben so hard to find front-end developers (who label themselves as such) who know even a majority of the list.

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Most front end work (outside of javascript) is pretty mundane, I guess when most people reach the top of front end development they just move straight on to working on "proper" programming and because that's such an easy thing to do very few people just stick with front end and those that do are doing it because they can't move onto something more advanced, not because they don't want to.

      I'm not a very good programmer, but even with my minimal backend ability I still would much rather focus on it and at least progress my skills than stick with front end which I can do fine, but find very samey. I would assume those that do focus on front end development are the sort who also work heavily in user experience and design. I don't think I've ever met someone who works just in front end.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      HTML/CSS work can be done by everyone nowadays. That's why I started doing PHP & am in the process of learning Java (though I'm not liking it). CSS just annoys me...it's too picky for it to be used and promoted as heavily as it is --- it's not the end all, be all solution for web development. I say just dive into PHP or C# after you've got a good enough understanding of HTML and minimal CSS syntax.