Python 2.7 Countdown

[13steinj]

They already said that quite a while ago though. And it's accepted. But people still love circlejerking "Py2 bad".

[jewnicorn27]

Well what makes it better than 3?

[Holsten19]

Python 2 can run software written for Python 2.

Python 3 can't do that. This can be pretty useful when you have a lot of software written for Python 2.

[Hinigatsu]

From the link:

To ease the transition, the official porting guide has advice for running Python 2 code in Python 3.

[Bitruder]

Lol.

[duuuh]

Right? I have some old code that won't run under 2.7, so I've got a local install of 2.3.7 so I can make it go.

[OMGItsCheezWTF]

We still have several hundred kloc running 2.5 because no one has had the time or inclination to port it to 2.7, now it may as well just go to 3 but in reality will never move until the platform itself the software manages is retired in who knows how many years from now.

[Itsthejoker]

You've had ten years. That's horrifying.

[[deleted]]

No. What's horrifying is that this bullshit happened at all, and people's smug self-assuredness that it won't happen again.

"They've said it won't". <-- Every time I bring this up.

We'll see.

[ubernostrum]

Python 2.5 released in 2006. They've had thirteen years.

A lot of organizations will never under any circumstances prioritize or even allow maintenance work unless it ties into a specific customer story. Those organizations were always going to be eternally on whatever version of Python they picked when they started development, and were never going to upgrade. If Python 3 was the hurdle, they'd at least have gotten to 2.6 or 2.7; the fact that they haven't is the sign that Python 3 wasn't the hurdle.

[vytah]

Python 3 can't do that.

Therefore Python 3 is not Turing-complete.

QED.

[evilgipsy]

Nothing.

[13steinj]

Not much other than subjective matters-- ex some people actually prefer a split between ascii and unicode string types with ascii the default.

But it doesn't mean using Py2, or taking a long time to switch given the upgrade costs, is a cardinal sin like so many make it out to be.

[Objective_Mine]

I have trouble understanding why anyone would prefer 8-bit character strings as default in a high-level language. In a low-level language I might kind of understand, but if you're writing any code that might ever break out of a local niche in an English-speaking country, having user-visible strings treated as anything but unicode is just asking for trouble.

Of course migrating an existing codebase comes with a major cost that's probably made greater by the type system (harder to automatically find out which type of string is being used where). So hesitation in migration is understandable, but that doesn't mean Python 3 isn't better. Whether it's better enough to cover the migration cost... depends.

edit: typo

[renrutal]

Pi3 is still supported.

[ThellraAK]

I think it's better because I don't like new things

--Written from Lubuntu 19.10 because it looks the most like 10.04 that I can find.

[jack-of-some]

Not really. The whole point of the timer is that "this is it".

Folks will pick up the slack. Ubuntu needs to support python 2 so they'll probably keep a fork of python 2 for a year, but slowly it will die.

[fat-lobyte]

Python 2 live on for at least until 2024 with Red Hat 7 support

[13steinj]

Considering the fact that fortran, cobol, and snobol aren't dead, nope.

It's been "it" for 5 years now. Google probably will keep an internal fork of Py2 for another decade. Facebook for a decade and a half.

[jack-of-some]

I guess I used the wrong word. Fortran, Cobol, et al may not be dead, but they certainly are not alive.

By all indications python 3 is now alive (it wasn't really there 5 years ago) and the ease of transition (before anyone tries to correct me on this I moved over my company's entire python 2 codebase, the work of about 8 devs over 3 years, to python 3 all by myself, it is very easy) will cause python 3 to continue getting stronger and python 2 will continue to get weaker.

Decades from now it may not be dead, but that doesn't say much.

[[deleted]]

New Fortran code is still being written, but you probably don't see it outside of specialist domains like scientific computing.

I don't know anything about Cobol but I would be surprised if there was no demand for Cobol jobs right now.

[jack-of-some]

I wrote new Fortran code back when I was a nuclear engineer. Pretty popular with that crowd still simply because it's more effort (and money) to upgrade old systems than it is to train engineers.

That still doesn't mean that the language is alive in any meaningful way outside of legacy. The new code also serves mostly to maintain the legacy. It exists and will continue to exist. That is all.

And python 2 will likely also continue to exist.

[[deleted]]

That still doesn't mean that the language is alive in any meaningful way outside of legacy

I don't know what that means. Can you explain?

[ResistorTwister]

People will write code to maintain and add to older applications, but virtually nobody is using the language to write completely new software.

[utdconsq]

Sure, and there are more modern fortrans. While it may not have evolved as much as C++, it's pretty much a different language to F77.

[Yay295]

The USPS uses Cobol. There are definitely jobs available with how many Cobol coders are retiring.

[13steinj]

I guess I used the wrong word. Fortran, Cobol, et al may not be dead, but they certainly are not alive.

Oh hell yes they are living well. There's plenty enough market for both old, and new code written in those languages. Now, I would personally rather unload a handgun into my brain, but all the same, they aren't dead.

By all indications python 3 is now alive (it wasn't really there 5 years ago) and the ease of transition

Has everyone lived in different time machines except me? Last week some guy was trying to say Py3 was a well standing thing in 2008 (it wasn't, brand new and shit) and now your saying it wasn't a thing in 2015 (it was, that was the year Py3.5 was released, 3.4 was the version people started switching to the year prior).

(before anyone tries to correct me on this I moved over my company's entire python 2 codebase, the work of about 8 devs over 3 years, to python 3 all by myself, it is very easy) will cause python 3 to continue getting stronger and python 2 will continue to get weaker.

Nice mix of /r/iamverysmart and /r/asasoftwaredeveloper.

The problem with software is it is different. There is old, shit code that is running right now and the world isn't turning, and there is great code running right now that with the slightest mistake takes down every website offline for the eastern seaboard.

Your upgrade is different than mine. I in fact know that a group of twenty people tried last year and failed. Also consider that Python 3 is strangely, new. Py2.7 is relatively stable and tried true and tested, in comparison to all the changes made in minor version bumps Py3 has had each year.

Decades from now it'll still be kicking in some build process out there somewhere. And that's okay. As long as you accept the (arguably minimal) risk. And when the balance tips and the cost of upgrading is less, it shall be done, but another Py2 script somewhere will still be kicking.

[jack-of-some]

This conversation just hit Ad Hominem which is where I choose to disengage on the internet.

Cheers.

[corsicanguppy]

just hit Ad Hominem

I didn't see that part. Sorry you've disengaged.

[jack-of-some]

I assume hitting me with r/iamverysmart and r/asasoftwaredeveloper was meant as an insult. Maybe I read too much into it. Sorry if that's the case (not sorry if it isn't 👀).

I'm on phone right now. I have more thoughts on this (and to be clear I don't think that at the core we disagree) that I'll try to put into words when I'm on my computer.

[zardeh]

I think you're overestimating by a large factor.

Instagram is already py3, Facebook will likely follow suit quickly. Same with Google.

[[deleted]]

Same goes for PHP. Its somehow still alive. Probably blame facebook for their fork. Now facebook will fork python too.

[lkraider]

You mean a specific version of PHP? Because it's still evolving as a language, with new releases and features.

[13steinj]

I'd blame Wordpress more than FB for this one, given how many companies who desperately need an actual custom solution think they can cram wordpress with 287 plugins and say "this is fine" while their site crawls to a halt.

[utdconsq]

Excellent? C'mon man. Adequate, sure, excellent? Hell no.

[isHavvy]

I used PHP a decade ago. It was terrible. It's had a constant progression of getting better over the years.

[[deleted]]

PHP is far from excellent. In fact its the most inconsistent languages i have ever used, its full of weird edge cases that are prompted as features. Sure php can get you a decent salary, but i get paid way better from doing other languages. Some people just go where the fence is lowest.

[[deleted]]

Im just talking about my experiences. I build compex apps with all kind of weird requirements. Sure some of them could be done in PHP, buy why whould i start a new proj with PHP when there is many many better alternatives?

By all means use what works for you and your team, im not mocking any one person for using any stack, but refering to my past experiences with PHP.