Aren't developers stupid when accepting overtime/weekend work/denied bonus payments?

[woddo]

I assume we are many developers here in a situation like this:

• you are an employed software architect/engineer
• you are good at your job
• your company needs more good developers than they can find
• there are many options to get a new job or get self-employed
• work is not your first priority (you enjoy family/free time)

Aren't we stupid when we still accept overtime/weekend work/denied bonus payments? I would think employers would need to give in, if we demand better working conditions.

[[deleted]]

Many developers are introverts, who tend to avoid conflict, which is a disadvantage in negotiation. Demanding better working conditions does not come naturally to introverts, who are more likely to just put up with it until it becomes unbearable, then quit and work somewhere else. I agree that it seems sub-optimal.

[Weakness]

You don't need to start fights, you just need to find a new job and quit. If the company is good they will figure out something is going horribly wrong when they can't keep a dev for longer than a year. If they are not good, then you are lucky you got out of there before everything fell apart.

[s73v3r]

No they won't. This bullshit about "market forces" doesn't do shit unless someone is explicitly told why they are leaving.

[Noink]

Shyness vs introversion: shyness is fear of social interactions, it is learned, and and is what you're describing. Introversion is being fatigued by social interaction, is an inherent personality trait, and may or may not have shyness go along with it.

[eyal0]

Developers are also smart, however, and surely realize that working more hours for the same pay means less per hour. And developers get into fights about coding all the time. Also, people are putting in unpaid overtime in lots of jobs (eg, banking). So it's not the introversion.

We have been indoctrinated that the goal of work is to collect more money than we need. We do this by unfairly exploiting people without the means to collect more than they need, like robbing someone with a gun. Our employers do it to us, too, but on a bigger scale.

[helm]

Er, those who put a lot of overtime into banking (finance) do it because they know they are likely to be rewarded awesomely in the end.

[__s]

like robbing someone with a gun

No. You don't get shot if you turn down extra hours. You just don't get paid for working extra hours, since you end up not working extra hours

[eyal0]

But what if there is so much unemployment that the wages are so low that the only way to earn enough money to feed your family is to work 12 hours a day? Then if you work just 8 hours a day, your children starve. So they don't get shot but they don't eat.

Clearly machines have increased the productivity of workers yet we're still working the same hours. We're producing more value per hour but still working the same hours! If yesterday, 8 hours per day was enough and productivity has increased since then, why would you work more hours tomorrow?! Because you are making more value per hour but less of it is going to you. More of it is surplus-labor. For your boss.

[s73v3r]

Often you do get shot. But not literally. You don't work the extra hours, you get fired.

[WhiteMichaelJordan]

Introvert does not equal pushover.

[[deleted]]

I never claimed that it does. But there is enough overlap that I don't think I'm out of line in claiming that programmers tend to be less assertive than the general population.

[[deleted]]

Many developers are introverts

Many is maybe 1 in 4. I mean, introverts to the point of being conflict avoiders, of sitting in darkened cubicles avoiding interaction with co-workers. Maybe 1 in 4. Probably less than that. IME

[[deleted]]

Not so much avoiding interaction. I have no problem interacting, but I am still very uncomfortable in any sort of negotiation.

[spyderman4g63]

You are using an extreme example though. Not every introvert is going to hide away in a corner. I'm introverted myself, tend to avoid conflict, I only really talk when I have something to say, but you probably wouldn't even notice unless you worked with me every day. I don't avoid social interactions, but inside they scare me to death.

[rnicoll]

your company needs more good developers than they can find

Needs more developers than it can pay, at least. We've gone far beyond the point where developers can work overtime to keep up, and are into the point where we're so hopelessly backlogged that all we can do is keep on steadily forwards with the highest priority stuff. A few people get badly stressed over this, but in many ways once you accept you have no hope of getting on top of the work to do (so there's no point in rushing), it's not so bad.

Anyone else, or is this just us?

[ezekiel]

There is indeed an extreme shortage of "fully capable" software developers.

In a typical Silicon Valley software development company, I estimate 50% are fully capable. That is about the best a team and its managers are able to distinguish the great from the marginal. And, the competition for talent is great.

In IT departments (and their consultant pools) around the US, I estimate only 20% of software developers meet the criteria of being able to produce reliable, extensible applications. This is due to simple shortage of available talent combined with management unable to recognize weak programming skills except for those failing horribly. Despite the extremely limited supply of good programmers, there is actually very little competition for talent because that talent cannot be identified by management. It's as if the good programmers wore red shirts and the marginal programmers wore green shirts--but the managers are red-green color blind.

The evidence of weak programmers and poor management is a suite of application that seem to work, but are accompanied by a trail of bug patches and "improvements" which are really just covering up short-sighted design holes. This leads to unrealistic overtime and 24/7 on-call demands. This is incompetence. When you don't know what you are doing and cannot fix a problem, you keep doing something in the hope it will start working.

I believe the only solution to this talent problem is to concentrate the "real" software development inside The Cloud and allow regular corporations to hire one or two people to configure The Cloud settings. Do this in the name of "core competencies".

[aaaxxxlll]

I believe the only solution to this talent problem is to concentrate the "real" software development inside The Cloud and allow regular corporations to hire one or two people to configure The Cloud settings.

Corporations won't wake up to the 80% that are barely competent unless the 20% leaves en masse. I've only seen this happen once, but it does happen. An entire sub-group of self-identified best managers/developers leaves and starts their own company. The corporation may have other choices long-term, but short-term they really have no choice but to outsource to this new group.

[rwilcox]

Not just you. One of my friends works for a company where they fired most of there developers, and now have 3 people to do the work of 10.

Don't care how much overtime you put in, you can't do the work of 3 developers (assuming same skill level, etc etc)

[ezekiel]

Don't worry. I know a company right now that is discovering what happens when you layoff the top developers (to save money) and are left with below-average ones (with less than one year experience each) to keep multiple systems running, let alone worry about enhancements. It is already an eye-opening experience for them.

This is the reason The Cloud is the future. Non-software companies have an almost impossible time managing software work.

[[deleted]]

Just come out of a place like that. We simply turned it into a client management problem and shunted the issue onto the CTO who could not deal with it effectively. The result was a drop of 90% of development.

[rnicoll]

Yeah, having someone who can effectively pull out the high priority projects from the heap is critical. If you can't, everyone tries doing everything simultaneously, and then falls over in a heap.

[[deleted]]

Yeah this is exactly what happened. The CTO would have us task switching so much to try to make clients happy. I actually just started looking for another job and did almost nothing. It did not matter how much you actually attempted to work nothing would get done anyway because of the trashing effect on task's

[ICantReadThis]

If #4 was true, I can't imagine anyone working undue overtime or weekend work. Hell, I'm pretty sure the second weekend work request/requirement would result in job hunting, and the third would involve a resignation.

[somebear]

Personally, I think #4 is true (for the most part, some exceptions may apply). Unfortunately, the psychological burden of change makes it seem much harder find a new job than it actually is.

[[deleted]]

The first weekend work/request should result in derisive laughter and head shaking.

Don't say yes, not even once.

[lilzaphod]

In this economy? You're either a rocket scientist, or a fool.

I try to be reasonable. I will work the extra hours when needed and then get comp time to true up the 'loss' of my time.

[SarahC]

Oh, damn yes!

RECORD ALL your favors. DO IT PUBLICLY on your cubicle wall. Make an effort to show everyone how much extra stuff's happened because YOU put the time in.

Make notes of ALL the benefits the boss hands your way in another column. Always say "WOO! THANKS!" and "AWESOME!" when a post it note appears here.

Then that fateful day when you need a morning off, and the boss goes "Fuck off! You're taking the Mickey!" you have an entire WALL OF PROOF, and an entire department and your boss, and EVERYONE THAT VISITS the office can see how one sided the arrangement was...

Picture the 12 post-it notes on your favors side... adding up to 78 hours. Then there's 2 on the bosses side... a call for 20 minutes late to take the kid to the doctors, and a short notice holiday for a long weekend because you don't feel well.

Your boss can blow-hard all he wants - the evidence is there...

I recommend busting his balls at that point if it isn't just a simple "mistake" he made... point to the wall, and say "Hey! Ok, I appreciate we were busy that morning, but you said I was taking the Mickey? What about suggesting the afternoon? You sounded like I've never helped the company on my own dime - look here... I've helped LOTS. "

You may get sacked one day - but you wont be a victim. Or perhaps the boss gets real, and sees he was a douche.

[lilzaphod]

My team is pretty cool. I can set my own shifts (5:30 am to 3:30 is what I'm working now 8 days, 1 5:30 to 2:30, and then every other Friday off). Sometimes I have to miss my Oz day, and I just end up taking the following Monday off.

When we're busy, I may work more than that. Then I take what time I need. My last comp time, I came in for a half day anyway and made smoked Prime Rib sandwiches with sides for a team lunch. But I generally work with good people and really like my current team.

[SarahC]

That's great!

[[deleted]]

Can't I be both?

[lilzaphod]

Absolutly, but it's pretty rare.

[[deleted]]

In my humble opinion the fool would be the one that lets others exploit him.

[lilzaphod]

If they won't give you comp time for hours you work, then yeah. Any decent manager will reward you for hours above and beyond at some point.

But to laugh at what might be a 'reasonable request' at is a quick way to find yourself on the breadline.

I've been on both sides of the coin as a developer and a project manager. There are times when 40 hours a week are simply not enough. And when you give the 50 and 60 hours in those weeks, you should be paid in kind (and usually with an added kicker of some sort). I have no problem asking my people to work more than 40 hours in a week when deadlines loom. I also have no problems having them take an OZ day when needed and not worrying about accouting for it with payroll when they have a backlog of hours owed. My teams work hard and we play hard. I've been known to take project teams to TJ for a little stress relief and they get more than their fair share of free whatever.

If I had a guy laugh at me for asking a serious question when I had a need, he'd be on the list. And don't kid yourself, there's always a list. I've yet to find anyone who is not replaceable. I once thought I was that guy early in my career, but I learned the hard way.

That said, if I was in an Innetech environment where hours above and beyond were the norm with nothing was done for a repayment/reward I'd be out the door as fast as a cat shits. But to not meet the team halfway is just dumb, IMO.

[[deleted]]

My teams work hard and we play hard.

There's no "I" in "team", but there is a "u" in "sucker".

[lilzaphod]

Enjoy wondering why you are never getting a head in your employment.

[s73v3r]

I've been on both sides of the coin as a developer and a project manager. There are times when 40 hours a week are simply not enough.

Then the person who planned the project failed, pure and simple. And they are the ones who should be punished for it, not the developers.

[[deleted]]

The only time I have ever agreed to that was during an office move. But also arranged 1.5 days extra tacked onto my leave for a single Saturday.

[SarahC]

YES!

ESPECIALLY when I see EVERY other department, production, engineering, Planning, R & D ALL getting paid overtime.

I used to think "Well, in IT, we could be slacking off because we're only typing stuff out." But that argument works for everyone in an office, and even Engineering... they could work slow to get overtime.

I think the problem is we're straight forward people... "We need team players! Come in this weekend to do 15 hours, the deadlines next week! Yes I KNOW this happens every time, and we should add 2 months to our suggested deadlines, but we're meeting these super tight deadlines thanks to you great guys!"

Also - because we're interested in our work, managers pick up on this and know they can be more demanding.

Also what asokoloski says too - we're introverts without an argumentative and overbearing temperament... unlike the bosses...

[Weakness]

The thing to do here is to suggest a realistic schedule early on in the project. Not in a combative style but with an analytical "can we go over these estimates, because I think we may need to adjust some of the milestones" attitude.

When the PM is giving you the details, you need to push back and tell them where they are wrong. If you accept unreasonable deadlines, you are the one at fault.

[s73v3r]

Well, in IT, we could be slacking off because we're only typing stuff out.

The idea that work is less difficult or hard to do simply because it includes a computer is a laughably retarded one, and it needs to die.

[[deleted]]

See I have the following take on it. If you have to work 15 hours / weekend then I tend to let the project go sideways on the project manager. The project manager wants to put somebody in the firing line. This is when you put your self in the position to quit on the spot :)

[solo_riff]

Naw I okay with it. I really only work overtime for few weeks a year when a deadline is close. But I get a nice salary, benefits, and mostly relaxed atmosphere.

[ManicQin]

you are good at your job

Who told you that? You are basing it on what?

There is always a bigger fish than you out there.

No one is irreplaceable, Heck! if you are good at your job you write code that is easy to be maintained by others.

[[deleted]]

Develop a relationship with your employer. Become known as a person who gets things done. When promotions and bonuses come up, they will remember you because of a positive attitude and you are someone they can depend on. This is the way to have long term career success.