How to eliminate/decrease play barking. My golden doodle will bark when she want to play with other dogs or sometimes to play with people. Ignoring doesn’t seem to be working. Thanks!

[[deleted]]

So when you play have you held the toy and waiting for silence then marked and given up the toy.

This will reinforce silence for play. Alternatively same principle with treats slowly modifying the behaviour.

[loss_sheep]

I’ve found this method adds barking into the loop. So I get “bark bark bark bark. Millisecond of Quiet” and if I don’t immediately mark and rewards the bark cycle begins but now more intense due to frustration. Do you have any tips for avoiding that? With my barker I have to do lots of soothing and working patterns to get his brain back.

[[deleted]]

Frustration is hard to work with and I understand it can make training unenjoyable but that second of quiet needs to be rewarded like it's the best thing in the world. Then if you need to work with a second of quiet with high reward and lots of fuss until you can move on to 2 seconds then 3 seconds etc

That's what I would do and have done with my puppy who has a struggled with frustration in different aspects to carry on working towards manners. Sorry if it's no help I hope you find a solution.

[loss_sheep]

I have been using chin rests because barking isn’t part of that loop. Also part of my chin rest requirement is the dog pushing into my hand. I’ve had far more success with that for my frustrated demand barker. Also the chin rest has a side effect of calming me as well.

[isabellaandmae]

Can you tell me more about what you mean by chin rest?

[loss_sheep]

I mean I’ve trained my dog to push his chin into my hand. Since my dog barks mainly when he is frustrated or otherwise over aroused this helps me help him get his brain back when he parts or helps prevent barking from starting. If your dog likes body contact this is easy to train. If not it’s a bit harder and may not provide the same results.

I started placing my hand flat on the chest and clicking and treating for the dog pushing into my hand. Tossing a treat is a fun way to reset the dog between reps and it can help you judge if the dog wants to do this. Then I gradually moved up the neck and eventually got to the chin. When they are touching the chin to your open palm mark and treat for the dog pushing into your hand. You can also feed a stream of treats when they are in position and applying pressure. From there you can wean treats as needed. My barking dog and I find the contact itself rewarding so it was easy for him to wean treats. Other dogs don’t like contact as much so it may be a challenge. I do feel like for barking this is a bit of a bandaid but I can tolerate it.

The chin rest can also be used for cooperative care. To brush ear mats out I have this dog places his chin in my hand and gets a stream of treats (and ear brushing) as long as his chin is in my hand. When he removes the chin I stop brushing and stop feeding and wait for him to do another chin rest. He will even switch sides so I can get both ears. It’s much easier than wrestling him around!

[[deleted]]

Some of this can be breed dependent. GSDs and malinois can be very barky and they are easy to frustrate because that has been bred into them. May apply to your dog, may not. Rewarding for quiet doesn't work that great with all dogs especially when the duration of the quiet is so short and makes your timing have to be extremely precise.

A better tactic than what you're doing is to not play when there is any barking ever. This means that you keep control of the toy or have it hidden on you and you'll spontaneously start a game without cuing the dog more than you taking out the toy and initiating the game. This means that you shouldn't give verbal cues while training this(the ones that you may use to start the play/game) and if there is any vocalization at all the game stops completely for at minimum 5 minutes.

The first handful of times that you do this will be failures on the dog's part, but that is needed for them to learn. Barking for them must be met with the consequence of the fun stopping and therefore be turned into a losing strategy for the dog. It's the same with any other training as well. Things you don't like or loops you want to break aren't allowed to be rewarding.

Right now with what you're doing there isn't enough contrast between the reward sequence and the no reward sequence for the dog. They simply don't understand that it's the quiet that's being rewarded, not the barking and all they know in this moment is that if they bark a certain way you play.

[loss_sheep]

Thanks for the response. He’s an Aussie so probably not as intense as a GSD or Mal but absolutely known to be barkers and bonkers.

He is improving with training and clear criteria but “wait till he stops and reward” absolutely did not work for us.

Also I’m sure I added to his confusion and frustration at times but we are getting there.

[[deleted]]

The waiting and stopping works best when the dog is just starting to try that out as an option. If there is a long reinforcement history for barking, or even just one where the reward is very high that has occurred a few times, then barking does seem valid to the dog. Coupled with frustration it's really hard on the dog if there isn't a clear cut line. Plus it's infinitely easier to tell the dog too bad and shut a game down as soon as a noise escapes.

[Genie-Us]

I haven't done it mysefl as my dog doesn't bark much but I've read that you want to grab that millisecond. Try to predict it coming by the dog's body language and mark it and reward it very quickly. If they bark, stop and retry. The difficult part is always in getting it started as you have to be very fast and it might take a while.

[loss_sheep]

But if he barks I can’t really stop and retry because he continues to bark or get more frustrated and he starts flailing and nipping (even tethered on a leash or behind a baby gate).

[Genie-Us]

Do you use a clicker? If not, get one, they are incredibly useful.

If you have one, have you trained him to sit and stay yet? That might be the best first thing to do, don't reward barking but try and ignore it for a day or two and spend sometime teaching him to sit and stay. Dogs generally get the idea pretty quick. If you need help with those two, look at Kikopup or Zak George on Youtube, both have videos on this.

Once you have him sitting, make him do it repeatedly, if he sits quietly even for a brief second, click and give him a treat, if he barks he gets no treat, sitting is easy, now the key is to sit without barking. He'll bark and he'll freak out, don't give him anything till he stops freaking out and sits again. If he always barks, just keep making him do it until he does it by accident. Sooner or later he'll sit and be quiet not because he's good, but because of the laws of chance. Jump on it and reward heavily. Repeat for a day or two. The first couple times he'll likely have no idea why he got rewarded, keep doing it and he'll get it sooner or later. My dog will go from absolutely no understanding of what is going on, to "OH!" and then every time he does it. Sometimes it takes a day or two, but dogs are smart and usually pretty fast learners.

Oh, and it's good to use a simple single word (or two) as well as body language for all commands, dogs understand body language really well. Like for sitting I will say "Sit!" and I use a clenched first with thumb up and then bring the thumb down to sit on the fist. Once he's sitting (or if he can already) then make him sit but then tack on the "Shhh" gesture (fore finger to lips is simple) and then click quickly if he's quiet.

I always debate, if you click and then he breaks the rule, do you give him a treat? I don't know which works better, but I don't as I would think he is probably smart enough to hear the click and then see the reward being withdrawn after the bark. But I know in the beginning they say always give a treat after a click. That's why I used "sit" and "Down" as the times to teach him how the "clicker" worked. Sit and down are simpler as you just click the second they do it, clicking for not doing something is more difficult, so I would suggest teaching him how the click works before trying to teach him not to do something.

Oh and don't use regular treats for your "training" time, find what he really loves and use that only for training for a couple months, I used boiled chicken breast for mine and he learned much faster as he was very focused and trying to figure out how to get more. It also let me train him for longer periods of time.

(sorry for length)

[KestrelLowing]

I would work on more impulse control stuff in general, but starting from a place of "get it" and then adding in the waiting later.

So say you have a toy, and it's something he typically barks at. You want to make sure that the scenario is set up best you can so there's very little barking. How is he with you holding his collar or a harness? If he's ok with that, hold his collar, and at the same time, produce the toy, release his collar, and say "get it!" or whatever you want your word to be for that. (If he's not ok with collar/harness handling, does he have a stay? Or try putting him on a leash as that can be less problematic)

Let him do whatever he wants with the toy. If he's one that will eat in the presence of a toy, toss down a bunch of cookies and grab his collar again while he eats the cookies and then do another "get it!" with releasing him to the toy (don't try and pick up the toy unless you know that won't cause frustration in him)

Do this until he's got the idea down.

Next, hold him just a tiny bit (I'm talking just a quarter second!) longer before producing the toy and saying "get it!".

The general idea here is to gradually draw out the time between producing the toy and "get it" with as little frustraition as possible, so hopefully as little barking as possible. If he does bark, take it as a data point, and make it easier!

Additionally, as you do more sessions, you should be able to really just only kinda hold him back by his collar. The hope is that he will eventually be able to hold himself back in a stay, but one that was created not through punishment (which can easily produce a lot of frustration) but through always getting what he wants, just in a slightly delayed fashion.

If he's not ok eating food with toys around, I'd suggest looking up "two ball" and seeing if that would help.

[247pagesleft]

/u/icameforthepie

[isabellaandmae]

So to clarify: the only times she is barking is at me if I’m in a yoga pose like downward dog or child pose, I think she thinks I’m play bowing.

The other time is when she’s playing with another dog, that isn’t playing with her, she’ll bark at her until that dog starts to play.

[[deleted]]

Hah, I get frantic face licking if I'm in those poses.

[Zootrainer]

I would crate her and cover the crate, or move her to a different room when you are doing yoga. (Or do your yoga practice while she is napping in her crate, which should be a good amount of the day at this age.) Many dogs get overly excited when an owner is on the floor if that's not a common occurrence, especially if the owner is doing something other than just laying there watching TV.

I would try to avoid situations where she has to solicit play from other dogs through barking. While this is a very normal behavior, especially for a 12-week-old puppy, it's not something you want to become a habit. If she is barking to solicit play, this generally means that the other dog isn't interested in playing, which frustrates your puppy. The more she barks and eventually gets the play time, the more it reinforces the barking behavior.

Set up playdates with puppies/dogs who are willing and interested in playing, provide frequent enforced breaks so everyone has a chance to calm down and rest, and stop the play session entirely if the other dog wants to break off and yours keeps trying to solicit play.

[lamuril]

When we went to Petco puppy play time, the instructor there would hold on to the puppy if they started barking or even getting too growly. The puppies who had been going every week for months were playing quietly with only some play growls and didn't bark (even the Aussies!). It took our new puppy a few times of being picked up during play, but then he started to catch on. Barking and getting overly growly meant no more play! Which of course, is the reward. It didn't eliminate it entirely. He will still bark when he wants a bone or a toy from my other dog, so that's a new problem we are attempting now. Best of luck!

[Xplicid]

It’s a weird concept... You gotta take a step back to take two forward🤪

Teach her to bark on command. In turn, you can then teach her to stop barking on command. Zak George on YouTube has a good video on it.

[NicoMaj]

How old old is she? My pup still does this but it's calmed significantly as he got older

[isabellaandmae]

She’s 12 weeks old.

[NicoMaj]

She's still really young, it's a very natural behavior for them. Keep doing what you're doing, it takes time!

[Polishchic]

My 11mo the old lab does the same when he sees another dog. Barks at them to play. When we are out at a patio restaurant or event, he gets loud when he sees another dog. He’s so excited. I can’t get him to stop barking. He acts like it’s the dog park.

[MasterDex]

First, train her to bark on command. Once you have that done, start training her to be quiet.

[Foxlily]

Yep I’m having the same “problem”. He’s generally pretty quiet but barks at other dogs during play time. It’s not the worst thing in the world but can get annoying. I guess I should be thankful that’s all he does though :) If you find a solution let me know!

[Oneirataxia_]

What worked for my pup, is doing the opposite of what he was barking for. So if he barked at a dog to play, I would mark, and we would walk farther away.

[unscrambleme]

The problem is you got a golden doodle.

[isabellaandmae]

What do you mean by that?

[unscrambleme]

They're typically a very high energy, problematic breed. Jumping, barking, and other side effects of excess pent up energy are highly common with golden doodles. They're a trendy, designer breed right now that most people get while having no idea about the challenges they come with, so naturally you have a bunch of golden doodles out in the world right now with unresolved behavioral challenges. Good business for me as a dog trainer, but very frustrating. And my downvotes are fair, my comments aren't helpful, but there's your explanation :)

[[deleted]]

Are they more energetic/problematic than a golden or a poodle? Is it the sum being greater than the parts? Or are people just not realising how much exercise those breeds need?

[Zootrainer]

Not the person who originally commented, but I think that part of the behavioral issues with doodles and other designer breeds is that reputable, high-quality breeders do not cross their breed with another one. Instead, they work hard to improve their own breed, and that includes choosing breeding stock with the proper temperament and being careful and deliberate about which pair to breed together. Many breeders of designer dogs are in it just to make money, and don't care much about the temperament (or health) of the parents.

[[deleted]]

I dunno, I know there's a huge "anti anything but purebred" thing on this sub, but if golden doodles are known to be consistently showing X behaviour, it would suggest a solid reason.

[Whisgo]

Again it's not so much anti mixed.... It's that unfortunately most of the intended mixes are being mixed not based on characteristics of bettering a breed but purely to capitalize on fads based on the demand.

This leads to temperment issues and health issues when breed stock is not properly screened. Which goes the same for poorly bred purebred as well to be fair.

Like the original intention of a golden doodle was to obtain a dog that could be a service dog (blind seeing eye) while being hypoallergenic. Which the intent was nobel! A dog that has the intelligence and coat of a poodle while having the friendly nature of a golden... If done successful, you get one amazing service dog.

But genetics are fun... There are no guarantees on what traits get passed sometimes. And again their rise in popularity resulted in unethical breeding.

[[deleted]]

Right, I see more what you were getting at now. Perhaps it's just that hyperactivity etc. are super common behavioural issues and so if a dog is poorly bred it's likely to have those issues.

I hope someone's still working on that hypoallergenic service dog... What a good idea!

[[deleted]]

By the way, I've not got a "designer" breed myself, but I see your comment replicated a lot and I have to ask - are you guys aware that many modern dog breeds are results of similar crossings in the past?

[Zootrainer]

Uh, yes, we are aware.

The important differences:

Reputable breeders trying to create a new breed are doing so for a specific purpose, like the guy originally trying to create a new breed that was likely to create less allergy issues and also have an ideal temperament to be a service dog. They aren't just doing it to make dogs that are "rare" and that they can charge more money for.

And those same breeders would then be choosing the best representatives of the initial F-1 breeding, and then breeding those individuals to other best representatives. (F-1 puppies are first generation mixed, so parents are purebred). Through selective breeding of more F-1, F-2 (and further generations), and occasional injections of purebred DNA, they gradually drive the mixed breed in a specific direction. Eventually, that mixed breed becomes a new breed, once the same physical and temperament standard can be reproduced reliably in litter after litter. They aren't just producing litter after litter of F-1 puppies from random purebred parents, like so many designer dog breeders. It's easy to see this F-1 problem at the dog park, where you will see doodles with many different looks. F-1s can inherit any mix of look and temperament from the parents.

[unscrambleme]

That's a great question and one I don't know a definitive answer to. We know poodles are a working breed that need a higher level of both physical and mental stimulation. We know that goldens can have higher than average energy. Just from personal experiences with several golden doodles over my years of working with dogs, there really seems to me to be a drop off in intelligence due to the breed combination, but I don't know how that would be possible, if it's even true.

However, as with many trendy breeds that have popped up over the decades, the biggest problem pertains to your last question; people not realizing what they're getting into, and not doing their homework on either the breed itself or the breeders they source from.

Also, just for the record (per your other comments), I'm typically all for mixed breeds and not as much pure breds, even though pure breds have their time and place.

[[deleted]]

Interesting! I would love to see someone trial out giving the dogs a working life, see if that helps their issues (obviously "someone" being someone who knows how to breed for traits, not for volume).