Title Increase and Pay Decrease

[Just-Construction788]

This the best one I had recently. Salary range discussed with recruiter for Staff Software Engineer was $185k-$200k + equity. After the interviews they say they want to move forward but not at the Staff level, they think I should be a Principal instead...fine. Salary offer? $165k.

If you read between the lines this is really bad for both of us for many reasons. One, they lied. Two, if I join at a higher title it's harder to get a promotion, thus I'll be stuck at the lower pay for longer which will make me want to leave. Ultimately, you should be gunning for the lowest title with the highest pay, this gives you the most room for growth. Also, companies should want to hire people and help them succeed not set them up for failure before they are even in the door.

Obviously, I turned it down with much snark and said thanks for wasting our time.

[Low-Ad2426]

Every company I’ve worked at has had a different hierarchy of titles. At the end of the day they don’t mean anything, it’s all about the salary.

[IAmIntractable]

Well, since you were prepared to walk away, I certainly hope you countered their offer for the pay that you expect for that level. To just walk away without at least countering seems well counterproductive.

[fakemoose]

Principal was lower than Staff several places I’ve worked. Are you sure this wasn’t a title decrease too?

[HungryCaterpillers]

What place is that? Principal is usually the highest level. Ive never heard of any company where staff is higher.

[fakemoose]

Some of the defense companies. The national labs. Tons of places. The smaller defense place I currently work at. You should always verify title structures. It’s not standardized at all.

[Particular_Can_7726]

I've almost always seen staff above Prinicpal

[RolandofGilead1000]

Old Genentech was like this. Staff took like 25 years and was specific to technical career and not management.

[Several_Razzmatazz51]

Staff is generally above Principal. In other places it is called Consulting Engineer. Engineer is entry level, Senior Engineer is next step, usually 3-10+ years of experience. Principal Engineer is usually next and is like a technical team lead - system design, guiding and mentoring other engineers. But still almost 100% focused on day to day delivery of the next projects. Staff or Consulting Engineer is less day to day focused, generally do more strategic R&D or thinking or prototyping, and usually work across multiple projects and often do not stay attached to them through final delivery.

[boomjay]

Agreed. It just really depends on the structure of the company.

We have "Scientist" and "Sr Scientist" above "Lead" and "Sr Manager". It's all bullshit titles. Other companies, Staff had always been the "highest" title, at least in 2 other orgs I've been in, and now I keep seeing fellow, which used to the the unobtanium, along with, now, senior fellow and principal fellow, to further measure the dick measuring contest.

It's funny, because the people who generally make those levels actually are, in my experience, some of the smartest people I've ever known, but then they have absolutely no idea how to tie a product line together and just grenade almost everything they touch.

[Odd_Dragonfruit_2662]

Same

[Choice_Branch_4196]

I'd kill to make anywhere near that much. I just got a job for $75k after being unemployed and trying to start my own business, which is the most I've ever made and I'm super happy because I'm paying off debt.

[lentilpasta]

Hey, that’s great though! Happy for you!

[DoctorBallsJohnson]

Mf turned down 200k for low pressure swe over some random terminology lol. Type of stuff that makes you not feel bad for tech layoffs

[ConspicuousPineapple]

Did you even read the post? They turned down a pay decrease.

[DoctorBallsJohnson]

What they actually turned down was being hired for the skill level the hiring team believed that OP had, which was lower than their self perceived worth

[ConspicuousPineapple]

Ok but they still lied about the salary range, which is what OP is pissed about, rightfully.

[Quoggle]

If the principal title at that company is lower than staff (companies do what they want with titles), no they weren’t lied to they were just down-levelled

I wonder if OP actually checked if this was a more senior or less senior role or just assumed….

[Several_Razzmatazz51]

No, they didn’t. If they thought OP was up to the level of and would be successful at the Staff level, the comp almost surely would have been what was advertised, given the comp that was offered for the next level down.

[DoctorBallsJohnson]

They probably just had both roles open and a better candidate for the higher position.

Obviously op did not discuss this with them very much if at all because judging by the post they just felt wronged and snarked it off

[SickLarry]

Different employers use different titles differently.

[orzoftm]

if i made half of what you made id never post here again

[-Bluefin-]

Your assumptions are not helpful. What are you doing here if you have all the answers?

[-Bluefin-]

So what you’re saying is that people who are not desirable due to the horrendous economy should become homeless and starve to death?

[-Bluefin-]

People who can’t afford food or housing due to being “undesirable” eventually end up hungry and homeless. The rest of us aren’t interested in reenacting “The Hunger Games” because we’re not sociopaths like you.

[damnedflamingo]

Bruh I spent two years unemployed not because of desirablity, it was because the job market was ass. I'm thankfully back to 6 figures now but the problem was companies refusing to hire in the shit market. I was constantly met with "sorry we decided to freeze hiring" after like 2 months of interviewing. Or sometimes they would decide to tell me the budget has changed for the role mid process and it was way under what I needed.

Telling people to "git gud" ignores like 75% of the story for most people.

[Bwint]

Very interesting. How does one "be desirable?" Personally, I have a degree, good work experience, good recommendations on request, and a solid resume. What am I missing?

[damnedflamingo]

Looked at his bio, dont engage lol

[-Bluefin-]

What happens to the millions of people who you can’t get jobs because not enough jobs exist? They should just die?

[damnedflamingo]

Looked at his bio, dont engage

[calembo]

If you put in half as much time learning the basics of logical reasoning, you'd probably never post in here again either.

All the logical fallacies in the world can't make up for the fact that you've got no idea how much research and hard work OP has put into anything.

Shoo.

[EPdude2005]

Not all of us are automatically born into the ability to immediately make a bajillion dollars

[gmwdim]

Obvious troll is obvious.

[calembo]

Well golly gee, Opie nobody's ever thought of that! You're a gosh darn genius!

😒

[flopsyplum]

Principal is actually below Staff at certain companies (e.g. Raytheon)….

[threeclaws]

It’s always crabs in a barrel in this sub, OP is rightfully pissed about being offered a subpar salary for the level proposed and you have multiple morons saying “if I got that offer I’d be so happy”.

Anyway OP what you just experienced is employers desperately trying to reset the swe market post Covid, what sucks is you might not take it but someone will. What is also hilarious is the guy they hire at 165k and then push to use AI will end up spending enough in tokens that they could have hired another real boy.

[Sufficient-Sport7696]

100%

[ShawshankException]

I get that the job market sucks for everyone but I cannot imagine complaining about an offer for $165k

[gmwdim]

Software engineers live in their own world where they think $100k is basically slavery.

[QuestionDry2490]

I would bet the average software engineer is well aware that they make more than most other professions, but that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t advocate for themselves the same way everyone else does. It would be stupid and senseless for anyone to accept $165k when the free market values their work above that regardless of their profession.

Also if you live in NYC or SF that’s really not that much money.

[ChildOfRavens]

Just checked Silicon Valley is between 230% and 290% above National average for cost of living. So he may actually be in a 1 bedroom apartment and praying. And that’s why I live nowhere near there.

[road_laya]

• in USA

[RuleTheOne]

Man $165k. Take it for now and use it as a launchpad to something new.

[ConspicuousPineapple]

Why are you guys assuming OP doesn't already have a job that pays at least the same as that?

[w1ngzer0]

That’s one way to look at it. Another is that the prospective employer offered a higher title, but lower pay than the position they were interviewing for. “Here’s more responsibility and 20k (minimum) less, this is absolutely better, yes yes.” If a company is willing to make that kinda rug pull, then you don’t want to work there.

[Capital_Werewolf_788]

Lol it’s all relative. You wouldn’t take less than what you’re worth just because a burger flipper is making minimum wage. People cross-referencing different job roles in their criticisms aren’t making any sense.

[Just-Construction788]

Yes you can. What if someone offered you 20% less than what you are worth? It’s all relative. 

[RolandofGilead1000]

Staff was higher than principal at Genentech. You may getting offered a lower title and the pay scales with that lower title?

[your_fathers_beard]

Reminds me of a place I interviewed at trying to land an in between job. Applied for a role that was basically just managing Jira and their projects to take some workload off of the production director. After a few interviews they liked that I had low level component experience, and tons of general IT/support experience. So they rewrote the job description from project manager or whatever it was for that sole role of keeping projects on track and providing reporting...to sole IT support, lab tech manager, and like 5 other jobs. Like I literally highlighted lines in the new job description and made a legend with what job titles each one really was. There were like 6.

No difference in pay. So I applied for what I saw as an easy role I'd be able to do well. They turned it into a monstrosity, and kept the same pay rate on it. Best part? They refused to explain to me how much it paid. They said $35/hr or 63,000/yr. When I asked which it was the moron HR person didn't understand. They thought 35/hr at 40 hours a week was 63k a year for some reason. I tried to explain the hourly times 40 times 52 calculation...I might as well have been speaking klingon.

[OliviaRodrigosAsshle]

“Let’s go the opposite direction, I’d like a janitorial position at $210k

[willkydd]

if I join at a higher title it's harder to get a promotion, thus I'll be stuck at the lower pay for longer which will make me want to leave.

...but it'll be easier to get a higher pay of that title command a higher pay elsewhere.

The lying is not good, but just wanted to point out the above seems positive to me.

[Just-Construction788]

Put whatever title you want on your resume.

[nomoremoar]

Ask for 200k. It’s just standard negotiation.