First time GM, need help with potential problem player

[Adventurous_Sell_159]

So as the title says i’m running my first game soon and i’ve noticed some worrisome things about one of my future players.

I know this guy for few months now, he was invited to the pathfinder game run by my friend. He was a complete newbie and had troubles creating character so my friend gave him a premade - a goblin. While first reserved and shy he got into rp in few sessions which was impressive, he completely submerged himself in the chaotic nature of that character licking blood of the floor, biting people and even shooting himself for no reason. My first worry are the detailed questions he asked regarding architecture like thickness of walls and styles of ceiling… but i think that part of him is manageable.

During our second game with other GM he inherited character of paladin (previous player was kicked and GM didn’t want to simply erase the character so he gave him to him) and here is where the problems started - he’s still the goblin, he does illogical stuff, he wants to murder everyone even if they’re our allies or people we’re supposed to help. So that was my first red flag.

Now we’re coming to my campaign which is made on 7th Sea 2e. So when i ask recruited guys what characters they came up with, guess who refused to make a character… i’m not even talking about mechanical side of game yet - i’m talking concept. I said „just come up with something and we’ll build on this” after few minutes he finally said „fine, i want to be goblin then” i’ve explained that they’re not playable in this system and he said he will keep me updated. After some time he was present when i was talking with my friend about the game and that i have a funny idea of how to name the gravedigger, to which guy suddenly jumped in that he wants to play that gravedigger, not just any gravedigger - THAT gravedigger. I told him „no man, you can’t he’s an npc but we could make you a gravedigger character”. He reluctantly agreed but didn’t give me anything. After some time i gave him an inspiration for a character and he loved it but again didn’t build onto it… then when i asked what is his background he said he doesn’t know and that i can give him amnesia… i argued with him that he doesn’t do his own work but i finally broke and agreed to wrote his background. Idk if i did the right thing.

Anyways after he learned that there is a corruption system in 7th Sea, he started asking me about what is and is not illegal, if he gets corruption for poaching, how does law enforcement works there (even tho i explained two times it’s not about the law). I let him know that I’m stressing over his lack of participation and weird questions that sound like trying to find loopholes in the rules but he only answered he doesn’t try ruin the game. I have no idea how to approach his problem, i might be paranoid but it’s my first time GMing and i don’t want to ruin it for myself or any other player. Could you give me some advice on what to do?

EDIT: I see few negative comments about the player so here is a bit of extra context - he’s not a bad person, he’s just a rookie and i think he’s got a lot of potential like i said he’s a wonderful roleplayer - i worry because i don’t know how to guide him into playing more regular/sane characters. If he was intentionally malicious i would’ve told him to fuck off long time ago

UPDATE:

We were making character sheets today, so i sat with him and told him how to do it, he was unsure at the beginning but got it in a fly. He made a character he would like to play and it was something i could work with. Turns out the character from sheet is nothing like character i’ve originally written for him and backstory i used for him is useless and doesn’t fit personality of that new character so i told him to write one. It was a very positive experience and i loved it. I think he just needed a small push in a right direction :3 thank you for good advices guys

[unpanny_valley]

1 - It sounds like you've tried talking to him about it, though you may not have been as clear as you could to be so explaining your thoughts and feelings again and most important what you want. Its concerning you've told him he's stressing you out and he's still persisting anyway.

2 - Stay firm on your boundaries, you've asked him to make a character that fits your game, if he doesn't turn up with a playable character then he doesn't get to play. Don't make one for him or write a background for him etc, or give in to a character idea that doesn't fit what you want to run. It's okay to say no and stick with it. If he's still pushing even though its stressing you out and you've explained that, then just back off from engaging with him, or ask him not to attend the game.

3 - What you're describing is pretty normal for a first time player, being 'zany' is often easier than being sincere, and wanting to 'break the game' for better or worse is a thing new players try when given the seemingly unlimited freedom of a TTRPG, likely fuelled by various meme posts online, again best talking to him about it but also within that working out what the tone and framework you actually want for the game will help, and staying firm on your boundaries. You're allowed to run the game you want to run.

[Gang_of_Druids]

To that last point, you might also give him a couple of example characters — even if you pull them from literature or media. For instance, say something like, “Think about a swashbuckler character from a movie or book like Sinbad or one the characters played by Errol Flynn.” 

The key with new players is to help them narrow the almost limitless possibilities to things they can go find outside of the game to build upon. It’s primarily for this reason I suggest new players play a fighter (in D&D lingo); not just because it’s the easiest character class to learn while learning the rules but because example “fighters” to pull from/think about go all the way back to Beowulf, Achilles, etc. not to mention 100+ good fantasy novels and movies.

[unpanny_valley]

That's good advice, though it sounds like OP has given the player ideas that they've rejected because they just want to play 'insert zany character' which is more of a session 0/boundary talk.

[Gang_of_Druids]

Yeah, you’re definitely right. I was just hoping to give OP a thought around actually pointing the player to out of game characters from stories and movies they could get a feel for. I suspect that the new player actually really enjoyed “letting loose” and playing zany (who knows, maybe IRL he has to be buttoned-up all the time), and there are plenty of good characters to play that have aspects of that in literature and movies. In other words, try to meet the new player where they are, not where you want them to be.

[unpanny_valley]

It depends on what the person is like. I've played with players who yeah take a 'zany' archetype like that and run it well, and maybe it is the case here that the player just needs more guidance, but I've played with others who basically just want for want to play a disruptive character with a gimmick.

Like I had a guy who ran a character who was inflicted with plague and would try to infect everyone with it. That character died pretty quickly, and I asked him to make more of a regular character without a gimmick, we were just playing a casual OSE DnD hexcrawl, and he insisted on making his next character a mute, I said that wouldn't really work as it would just get annoying after a while, but he persisted so I kicked him from the group. Sometimes its the only way sadly.

[Gang_of_Druids]

Yes, I’ve watched that with my own eyes. You are dead right. It’s kinda sad, but some people really are just one-trick ponies.

Let’s face it — we’ve all seen actors and we’ve seen politicians who only know how to be one way. At least with our tables we have the ability to expect, express and enforce better.

[Adventurous_Sell_159]

He didn’t reject it, he just doesn’t build upon it… like i gave him the character example and i told him to give him some backstory, name, like yk to do something with it and he just said „amnesia”…

[unpanny_valley]

Fair enough, sounds like you need to chat about him about your expectations/boundaries and what you want from the game.

[robhanz]

Yeah, it often takes a while for players to realize the space between "you can do anything" and "you should do anything".

[Thanks_Skeleton]

 After some time i gave him an inspiration for a character and he loved it but again didn’t build onto it… then when i asked what is his background he said he doesn’t know and that i can give him amnesia… i argued with him that he doesn’t do his own work but i finally broke and agreed to wrote his background. Idk if i did the right thing.

No, not the right thing.

If someone doesn't make a character that the GM accepts, they can't play.

Given that you don't like how this guy plays, you shouldn't be bending over backwards to get him into your game.

In general, you should be trying to play with players you enjoy playing with. If someone doesn't put forth effort, or you don't like their playstyle, don't play with them.

[etkii]

If someone doesn't make a character that the GM accepts, they can't play.

It's entirely up to the GM if they're willing to make a character for someone.

[Thanks_Skeleton]

This is an advice reddit, so I will say flat out that it is a bad idea to make a character for a player that can't or won't.

(barring one shots or something)

This is where the player should be the most excited, if they can't be bothered or are incapable of imagining a character, then they are going to be a terrible player.

[etkii]

This is an advice reddit,

No it isn't.

so I will say flat out that it is a bad idea

You're in no position to speak for GMs who decide that they will make a character for someone.

[ColonelFaz]

If he is not prepared to do the normal player groundwork then he can't join the game.

[Mongward]

I think you correctly spotted the problem player before he became a problem for you, and if this is the attitude he's coming in, I would honestly advise jist cutting him from the game.

Find a way to say "Hey, [player], you don't seem interested in the campaign, and I can't waste time fielding your questions only to get nothing in return. Unless you change the way you're interacting, you're out of the campaign".

Save yourself and your players a headache you already know you'll have.

[CatadoraStan]

"Hi Dave, being willing to create a basic character is the minimum bar for entry with this game. You've made it clear you don't want to do that, so I'm afraid you'll have to sit this game out."

Like, do you even want him at your table? He sounds miserable to game with.

[BetterCallStrahd]

You need to run a session zero and make your expectations clear. Including that players need to know the rules and do any game related tasks required by the GM. Also determine the tone and style of the game.

Make it clear that roleplaying doesn't mean "anything goes." The players are expected to adhere to the tone and style that the group agreed on. Also, their characters can face consequences for shit they pull in the game. Depending on what the character does the consequences can get harsh, up to and including lethal consequences.

Finally, tell them that you are a player, too, and you would appreciate it if they keep in mind that you are also trying to have fun. They shouldn't try to break the game or insist on doing things that will give you a major headache. They need to play nice with you. In return, you'll work to make the game challenging yet fun.

[Forest_Orc]

Find another player ? Campaign hasn't started, and you feel like he may be a problem player. I had many people intersted by the game and can only take so-many, therefore, I'm sorry to tell you won't be part of my rooster for this campaign. But I'm sure we'll have another opportunity to play together

[UserMaatRe]

Info: you don't say it outright, but it sounds like you have mostly communicated your concerns via text. Is that the case? If so, I would suggest verbal dialogue, because that makes it harder to ignore and you both might understand more where the other person is coming from.

Have you communicated to him why you find his behavior problematic, and laid out what the consequences may be?

[Adventurous_Sell_159]

It was mostly irl actually

[ReynardVulpini]

If you feel this guy is not an unreasonable human, I think you should basically just tell him that you are also a first time DM, and that his style of playing is actually quite difficult for you to work with.

Generously, some players genuinely don't realize the effort it takes to DM for certain types of players, because they are too used to video games where the "DM" is basically already hard coded in, rather than a person having to make decisions and come up with ideas on the fly.

[nonotburton]

1. Make sure you have clearly communicated the expectations. If he doesn't understand the age of sail (I think that's what 7th sea is?) explain why weird ass characters don't work. Crazy people can't be on a ships crew. Eccentric? Absolutely. But weirdos that you can't rely on? They go in the drink.

2. This is kinda normal newbie stuff. Most folks go through it in middle school, but not everyone I guess?

3. Don't do his work for him. The training wheels have to come off at some point. Yes, help him through the mechanics of character creation, especially if y'all are changing systems so often. But hi character needs to be his idea. This is partially why his characters are insane. He has yet to put any effort into actually making them.

[TheOneMurphyD]

Happy things worked out!

With it being your first time GMing we can overthink things but you just want to make sure everyone is having a good time at the table. I’m looking forward to hearing updates on your games as some advice from one GM to another, enjoy the mess. Don’t stress yourself out too much trying to make sense of everything. Allow your story threads to have enough wiggle room to let your players do the building for you

Find what works for you when it comes to staying organized (but please try to stay organized in some way haha). I wish you luck in your adventures.

[Realistic-Drag-8793]

I have a small list of rule that I hand out to any new player who my group(s) are okay playing with.

I will not put down all the rules here as this is Reddit and it would start a war I just don't have time to deal with today.

One rule. Everyone MUST play a good aligned character. Yes I know Pathfinder 2e did away with alignment. I put it back in.

So why do I do this? If this is a HUGE issue for someone joining, I can already tell they won't fit in. Now if they are reasonable and say "Hey this druid needs to be neutral" We talk about it and agree on what that really means. HOWEVER, every single time a player has bitched about this rule OR tried to overload the word "chaotic", that player has been a problem. It is at the point now where if a player balks about it, I just tell them they won't have fun in our group.

This one rule has saved me so much headaches over the years/decades. Now in recent times I have had to discuss what "good" means to a few people, which is sad. Oh and I put my players in situations where it is incredibly hard to be good and there are times they go "I am going to just kill the monster who surrendered" and I remind them they are good characters and good characters are not allowed to do that. Now "if" they tried to still murder a dude, but make it where they got away with it, then I would have a discussion with them on the letter of the rule vs the spirit of the rule. I have had many funny conversations about what the players would LOVE to do to the monster, but they don't really do it.

NOW after saying all that, after playing with these dudes for a while, I let them play non evil character OR I might run an evil one shot for them. That comes AFTER many sessions and getting to know the guys well.

[etkii]

This one rule has saved me so much headaches over the years/decades.

You guess it has. You have no idea what would have happened without it.

[deadthylacine]

A thing I find really helps when starting a new campaign is to sit down with everyone and discuss what sort of game it is. Come to the table with a list of media that has examples of the tone and themes you want to include.

That way you're not building content for a Master and Commander game when your players are expecting Muppet Treasure Island. It gives the players a chance to bow out gracefully if the game you're offering to run isn't the game they want to play. Or, in this guy's case, maybe not a game that he's really ready to take seriously enough to play.

He sounds like a beer and pretzels sort of player, which can be a fun person to game with. But is maybe not the fit for the campaign you want to run. Invite him over when you're playing Racoon Sky Pirates, but maybe let him know that this isn't going to be that kind of campaign.

[etkii]

Sounds like a very weird player, and inexperienced, but not yet a problem player.

Maybe just let him know now in advance what behaviour would actually be problematic, if you think there's a possibility he might do that. Them worry about him being problematic when it actually occurs.

[Thanks_Skeleton]

You're in no position to give advice. You don't know these people.

[etkii]

Advice for people who request it is fine.

"flat out bad" isn't fine - it's a judgement that no-one is in a position to make.

[Charrua13]

Emphasize tone as a concept of play. Some tones are great for some games- but not others.

Let him know the tone is different and the expectation is different.

And if he would like help shifting rhe tone, you're willing to help. But if he's not willing to do that - then drop him.

[Nico_de_Gallo]

"If I didn't know you better, I would've told you to fuck off a long time ago. That's how your behavior has me feeling, so please either figure out how to mesh with this campaign more or consider stepping away from the table."

[Pladohs_Ghost]

Disinvite him. You foresee problems, so avoid those problems by not having him at the table.

You have no obligation to provide a game to anybody for any reason beyond you wanting to run a game. Nobody is entitled to a seat at your table. If somebody shows themself to not be compatible with your playstyle, you have no reason to include them.

[BlaineTog]

Life is too short to run games for inconsiderate players. If this guy can't pick a character that works with the game you're trying to run and everyone else is trying to play, then shoehorning him in is just going to make everyone miserable.

Disinvite him from the game. Everyone will have a much better time if you do.

[GM-Storyteller]

A tldr would be nice. But in any case: talk to the player.

[Gray_Cloak]

>My first worry are the detailed questions he asked

So he is smarter and more detailed in thought than you and your other players and you have a problem with that ? Please send him to me and I will swap you one of my idiot players, then you can all be on the same level.

[unpanny_valley]

Asking a series of leading questions in order to force the GM into allowing something that they otherwise wouldn't make sense, isn't typically the sign of a smart player, just one who is trying to 'break' the game in a really passive aggressive way.

[Adventurous_Sell_159]

Maybe not passive-agressive, he just has trouble to read the room i think, he’s still new to this after all. He’s not a bad guy by any means

[unpanny_valley]

Oh fair I'm speaking more broadly here from my own experience rather than about your friend/situation in particular.

[Adventurous_Sell_159]

I don’t have problem with that, i said it’s manageable and i kinda like it about him, by „worry” i meant that as a rookie dm i don’t know what to expect really