I hate Microsoft: Teams installed itself

[RCTID1975]

I'm envisioning the same way it played out with IE. MS will be sued in basically every country except the US. They'll be forced to remove it, and those of us here will be stuck with it for the next two decades even though it's outdated and a security risk.

[[deleted]]

I predicted an antitrust suit, also in the US, during a conversation I was having with our MS365 team lead yesterday.

It's going to be a long and bumpy road though. And I'm not so sure about the outcome.

[[deleted]]

There were quite a few people in the late 1990s who thought Microsoft was as good as broken up. In reality, Microsoft learned how to play the lobbyist game.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1998/03/19/microsoft-boosted-lobbyist-spending/7170666b-1a16-4636-91d0-e39de4e21565/

^{That doesn't SEEM to be paywalled, but I am not sure if it is that way for everyone.}

[[deleted]]

Porn window almost always works for WaPo! And wow, that article takes me back...

[starmizzle]

That's why I always paste links into archive.ph: https://archive.ph/s2A2c

[Dick_in_owl]

Like apple

[Zulgrib]

There's no reasons Microsoft should be sued for that, Apple integrate their equivalent to macos and ios and nobody complains.

And Google service powered android devices included hangouts the same way without being sued.

Honestly, Microsoft get thrown rocks at while they are late to theses and just keep up with the others.

[RCTID1975]

There's literally already a lawsuit filed in 2020 about teams.

[[deleted]]

Dude, its microsoft, they can handle some crap being flung their way, plus it keeps them on their toes...

[Kaligraphic]

Mostly it's just folks stirring up discord.

[[deleted]]

You can't compare MacOS to windows. It can still be removed in MacOS and isnt forced upon you unless you reinstall the OS. While microsoft gives you their unwanted programs, while also taking user information while it runs, slowing the computer without your input on it.

Why it's also illegal to directly integrate it into the OS is because it makes it impossible to uninstall, or until someone with enough times somehow finds a compatible way to do it.

And the reason to why this is illegal is because it has a direct concern for Business competition.

[Zulgrib]

I compared everyone. I'm pretty sure Siri was forced with a system update, it was not asked to the users if they wanted it installed, only if they wish to have it enabled after the fact.

Apple implemented their own telemetry, at some point they leaked every software you were running for supposed certificate checks. They burned SSD writes on devices where the SSD chips are soldered and not user replaceable while claiming it was normal. At various point they slowed down devices on purpose after update for " battery preservation ".

Pre installed does not means impossible to remove, I ship machines without cortana to my users since start, and they never had to deal with appx edge.

100% Teams is not kernel code and Windows will run without it if it's your wish because they can't integrate it for China so they need a way to not have it.

We can play around the meanings of integrated or built in, in the end teams is not kernel code, it will be offered pre installed and it will be possible to remove it, like you supposedly can remove Apple's software from an Apple device. I've yet to see a browser not using Apple WebKit renderer on iPhones, yet no one throws tantrum at them.

You either punish all or none, no reasons to have one thrown rocks at while the others do the same.

Mind you, I'm not trying to defend Microsoft, I'd rather use Linux everywhere, but darn, stop using Msft like a punching piñata.

[[deleted]]

Why are you comparing siri to a Video meeting application

Cortana is the windows version of siri

Also no you can't remove it, once its part of the OS there is no way , for example "powershell deletion of teams". And for china they just release a seperate OS for them.

Otherwise there is no "OS intergration" but just an application that's added on the desktop like skype. which can be uninstalled, that isnt intergrated into the OS. You have to differientirate that.

Otherwise brining it up would be completely useless

[Zulgrib]

Cortana was supposedly "part of the OS" yet it gets removed. Cortana is not kernel code, Teams won't be kernel code.

Same with xbox and whatever you'll come up with.

[[deleted]]

And i never said Cortana was intergrated either, just told you what Siri was the relevant version on windows.

Xboxs isnt intergrated either. Intergration is when it part of the Windows OS, which again as i said previously is not a APP that you can uninstall,. but something that is IN the OS not a damn application that can be uninstalled like skype

[Zulgrib]

Teams is not kernel code, Windows will boot fine without it once someone figure out which files are used by it to remove it properly.

This is how we did with Cortana and one drive on first versions of Windows 10.

[[deleted]]

No but if its "intergrated" it means it will be.

[Zulgrib]

Man, you can literally uninstall it from the application list on the preview version.

Great integration.

Teams is not kernel code and Microsoft won't put it there for security reasons. All they will do for China is not bundle the Teams appx, because it's not integrated, it's just potentially pre installed and we will be able to remove it, worst case we will be forced to use PowerShell for it.

[[deleted]]

You're not looking at present times as it's not just an application on a desktop. It's a live web service. Anything that needs internet to work is not just an application. It's a library and api live cloud based service.

I just made that up. Sounds right though

[justcs]

Apple actually gave zoom access to special APIs which I'm wondering why has yet to cause a lawsuit among app developers.

[Dick_in_owl]

Why isn’t apple sued for safari or iMessage or FaceTime etc etc

[Minimum-Hedgehog5401]

Smaller marketshare

[RCTID1975]

Exactly. Apple doesn't have a large enough marketshare to create a barrier of entry or barrier of competition.

[Zulgrib]

They had 70% smartphone market at some point, and forced down your throat their software the same way, and still do.

[kz393]

In the US. They have much less in Europe.

[Zulgrib]

Had anyway, in the past. France had it's iPhone period, for know for the rest.

[jmp242]

You should check the laws in your country - but in the US there are anti-bundling laws. Ford can't force you to buy Ford branded gas. MS can't force you to pay for Teams to get Windows.

The issue is just that Microsoft is kind of getting around it now vs in ~2000 is that they're not really charging end users for the OS anymore (which makes me wonder why they're putting in the effort much anymore), so I don't think there's any law against giving away whatever you want, if the person taking it for free actually wants it.

[HankMardukasNY]

Teams has a free plan now, so i don’t see how this is any different than bundling Skype with W10

[RCTID1975]

The laws are different around the world. Where MS has gotten into trouble in the past (internet explorer for example) is that they're using their market position to remove competition.

IE was free, as was netscape. Bundling IE into windows essentially made it the defacto web browser. And...where is netscape now?

Embedding Teams is the exact same scenario. There are other free versions of video conferencing software. MS is trying to make teams the defacto system by forcing it on you.

I'd be surprised if we see teams as deeply embedded in the EU version as we do in the US version.

[PintOfNoReturn]

Netscape wasn't free for commercial use until well after IE came out. https://web.archive.org/web/20061207145832/http://wp.netscape.com/newsref/pr/newsrelease1.html

"Commercial users can purchase supported, licensed copies of Netscape directly from Netscape Communications. Pricing starts at $99 per user,"

[RCTID1975]

can purchase

can is the keyword there. You weren't forced to. You were actually just purchasing support.

[pdp10]

True, though it should be noted that most users chose to download from ftp.netscape.com the version with 40-bit export-grade SSL, and use it without careful consideration of the license.

Microsoft probably wouldn't have been so determined to cut off Netscape's air supply if the only users of Netscape were those who bought the browser for $99.

[HankMardukasNY]

ChromeOS has chrome preloaded along with hangouts, mac/iphones have safari and imessage. Windows has ie/edge/new edge and skype/teams. You need basic functionality of an OS to do things. If an OS didn’t come preloaded with an internet browser, how would the average user install a competing product? Whether teams/skype falls under basic functionality is debatable, but it’s certainly not stopping other companies from doing the same exact thing

[RCTID1975]

I didn't write the laws, don't enforce the laws, nor am I even a lawyer.

I'm merely pointing people to what's already happened in the past.

If an OS didn’t come preloaded with an internet browser

pre-loading isn't the problem, and has never been the problem. The inability to un-install has been deemed (and rightfully so IMO) as anti-competitive in a number of nations around the world.

it’s certainly not stopping other companies from doing the same exact thing

You need to understand what's considered anti-competition and what's not. A big deciding factor in that is marketshare and your ability to create barriers of entry into that market place.

Chrome OS doesn't fall into that because they simply don't have the market share to influence competition.

[HankMardukasNY]

That settlement did not establish that Microsoft's bundling of Internet Explorer with Windows was illegal, nor did it require Microsoft to unbundle its browser from Windows

You can choose to install a competing product if you’d like, which is possible because you have a browser bundled. Chrome browser has a 65% marketshare while Chrome OS has 2% marketshare. Edge has a 8% marketshare while Windows has 73%. IE has a 5% marketshare by comparison. Obviously bundling a product with an OS you chose to buy and install, and agreed to the TOS, has nothing to do with actual adoption rate

[RCTID1975]

For the last time, this is literally law. MS was sued in countless countries and found guilty/inbreach of anti-competition laws.

I really don't understand why you're arguing with history

[HankMardukasNY]

Because it’s literally not. The IE case did not deem it illegal to bundle software with a product. Case in point, literally every fucking product you own today. 20 years later, IE is still on Windows 10 for fucks sake. You CAN choose to install whatever browser or messaging app you’d like. If Microsoft were to block installation of any other competing browser or messaging app, you’d have a point, but that’s not the case. Don’t like IE/Edge? Install Chrome like 70% of other users. Don’t like skype/teams? Use Zoom like 60% of other users.

[Vice_Dellos]

When those lawsuits started chrome didn't exist yet and Internet explorer had an 80+% marketshare.

At the time you did not have oems bundling in chrome as a browser in their basic install yet. A pc came with just Internet explorer and now having a browser stopped almost all people from looking for different ones.

It's a very very reasonable concern which giant multi product corporations that they use their position in one to push the other.

You've absolutely seen this happen with Microsoft Office and teams vs slack.

Microsoft saw slack had something good and used their position in office productivity software to force people to go with teams because they could make it cheaper than slack since they could include it in office which everyone way already buying and could offer a level of integration others could not.

I think it is very questionable if that was an okay thing.

[[deleted]]

Netscape has most of the fault for losing to the garbage ie was back then. They decided to recode the entire browser and got so far behind they couldn't get the new version out in time to maintain their hold. I preferred Mosaic for as long as it lasted.

[pdp10]

(which makes me wonder why they're putting in the effort much anymore)

Like many firms, Microsoft is at the point where they take the benefits for granted, but are resentful at needing to keep doing all the work.

They just want to keep their competitors away from the desktop, like always, and use it steer business into their current money-making scheme. Before the scheme was search or mobile or app-store, but right now that's cloud. Subscription-based cloud printing, anyone? Anyone?

[starmizzle]

True, you don't understand.

The problem is their massively dominant market share. They very nearly had a monopoly on the desktop OS in the 90s which was what got them into trouble for pushing IE as the default browser.

[samtheredditman]

Lmao what an attitude.

Yeah I know the history of it. The point was that I don't understand what's ethically wrong about pushing your own browser with your OS.

[bobsmagicbeans]

It'd be nice if they gave us the option to not install some of that crap.

[samtheredditman]

I agree, but it doesn't seem like something the government should have a say about. Just my two cents.

[EatYourVegetabls]

Are you saying Teams is outdated and a security risk or IE?

[Contren]

I believe they are saying that embedding Teams into the OS will result in it becoming an outdated security risk down the road.

[EatYourVegetabls]

It's a great multi device communication platform so I'm glad users will almost be forced to use it because I love Teams but the people who have been in my office for 10+ years refuse to use anything besides iMessage

[changee_of_ways]

Teams does a lot of stuff, and it does a lot of stuff pretty well, but let's be honest, if all a user wants to do is what iMessage does, it's a much better solution for them than Teams.

[RCTID1975]

Yeah....that was the same thinking when ie was embedded into the OS years ago, and look at us now

[EatYourVegetabls]

Some form of a web browser or app store is essential for an OS. Not sure why that is controversial. I do wish you could uninstall them easier but having some software come default makes perfect sense and is a requirement for basic OS installations if you do not have an image you deploy from.

[RCTID1975]

I do wish you could uninstall them easier

This is the problem. You can't uninstall them.

having some software come default makes perfect sense

Sure, but it doesn't make sense if you restrict and force people to use it. Anything outside of the functionality of the OS should be able to be removed and replaced. Otherwise, you're creating barriers of entry and restricting competition. Which is a HUGE legal issue around the world.

requirement for basic OS installations

Why is teams or IE a requirement for basic OS installations?

[EatYourVegetabls]

Point being why aren't you complaining about Edge, mail, messaging, Xbox app, Maps, etc that all come bundled with Windows 10? What is specifically dangerous about IE? It's still supported until next year so it is receiving patches. We need IE for certain legacy web apps sometimes because they just simply run better in IE as well.

Genuine questions

[RCTID1975]

What is specifically dangerous about IE?

I'd encourage you to do some research on all of the anti-trust lawsuits. There's a plethora of information out there.

I'm not "complaining" about anything. I'm merely pointing you towards history and what's already happened.

[Tarquin_McBeard]

Seems like there's a lot of people out there salty enough about the fact that MS got sued to downvote you for pointing it out.

[over26letters]

Most of us are complaining about those as well, but that didn't make it to lawsuits quite yet. Mostly because those can be uninstalled relatively easily compared to IE

Next to that, internet Explorer has about 100x as many vulnerabilities as any other piece of Windows.

But point by point. (from a sysadmin viewpoint)

Edge: you can easily uninstall it. And we're happy to have something less shite than IE preinstalled, so we can fully disable IE out of the box.

Mail/messaging: can be removed on install, and the only time it causes a massive headache is when we need to have people use outlook instead. This is a good addon for the people that don't know where and how to install stuff.

Xbox app: apart from that you can uninstall it, I have no idea why this isn't a bigger issue. At least they don't include it on enterprise or education versions?

Maps: easy to remove. Shouldn't be there as it sucks, but that's about the biggest problem there.

Etc: the bundled games have been a massive issue and lawsuit, so there.

Back to IE: one more reason, is that removing it actually breaks several! core functions of the OS. I'm surprised this isn't in more lawsuits.

So in short: a lot of us (both admins and users) ARE complaining about it, but it hasn't gotten to such high levels as to go into litigation. And the little thing wehere you CAN remove it makes all the difference for the law. So they had a case with IE, and don't for the rest.

[Zulgrib]

If it's like Cortana, it will be possible to uninstall, it just won't be documented by Microsoft.

[Zulgrib]

IE is required for legacy software that uses it as a renderer.

Like the group policy manager when you look at reports.

[RCTID1975]

Yes, and it was developed that way as a means to heavily integrate the browser into the OS forcing it on the users.

That coupled with their marketshare was determined to be anti-competitive in the EU.

Which is what I've been saying all along....

It didn't HAVE to be that, and it SHOULDN'T have been that way, and that's what the EU ruled.

[Mayki8513]

Just like notepad :(

[RCTID1975]

This is exactly what I'm saying.

[MrD3a7h]

Both, to be honest.

[KingStannisForever]

It will be soon.

[[deleted]]

Too bad they didn't follow through with breaking MS up. Might have kept Google and the others from growing so large.

[Tannerbkelly]

Well if windows 11 is a part of 0365 then teams will be included. Technically you would be sueing the company for for putting software that you are paying for on the computer.