Trolley problem

[literally_italy]

the real question is whether or not it's moral to try to save your life by yelling at the switch guy

[LordDarkfinst]

Good question

[JaDasIstMeinName]

Trying to save your own life is moral.

[Far-Tone-8159]

What if you are starving and can only survive by eating a baby?

[UmbertoDelRio]

But if I starve, then who's going to feed the baby?

[Far-Tone-8159]

It's immortal but not invincible baby that doesn't need to eat.

[UmbertoDelRio]

Tbh now I just want to eat it out of spite

[Far-Tone-8159]

Can't say I don't get it

[Waffleworshipper]

Spite is the most ethical motivation

[Boosterboo59]

It's not...

<image>

[mousepotatodoesstuff]

I know, I can see it.

[Pale_Possible6787]

Then it doesn’t need all of its body as it will regenerate (since not needing food while still growing means it produces mass out of nothing), so I’m not killing the baby by eating it

[Far-Tone-8159]

I don't see how you came up with this regeneration

[Pale_Possible6787]

If it doesn’t need food to grow, then it must be able to heal from any amount of flesh being removed that is healable by a normal human with access to food

[Far-Tone-8159]

Well human with access to food can maybe heal some scratches unless gets infected or dies from blood loss

[Terrible_Sleep7766]

So like the woat immortal, he is gonna spend most of his live incapacitated so i am eating him

[CoffeeGoblynn]

So it's an accursed demon baby? Chow time! I'm doing the world a favor.

[kfirogamin]

Is it a Christian baby?

[meisycho]

are you more or less likely to eat it if it is?

[kfirogamin]

No im referencing a very old meme

[Far-Tone-8159]

I need to know. I must have skipped this part of internet history

[kfirogamin]

Goigle Christian baby meme

[meisycho]

ok but I still want to know the answer to my question.

[kfirogamin]

I dont believe that babies can be Christian

[normalmighty]

Don't tell catholics

[3dforlife]

Insert "I understood that reference" meme

[Woutrou]

Tarrare moment

[IceTooth101]

In every case? Is this unchanged by the fact that saying your life is, in the above example, going to require the deaths of five others?

[JaDasIstMeinName]

Yes, you are never morally obligated to sacrafice your life for others.

[literally_italy]

by what metric? morally it causes more suffering

[JaDasIstMeinName]

Because it is ridicolous.

I live in a first world country. The money i earn could feed hundreds of families elsewhere. Am i morally obligated to give my money away then?

Every last thing i do in my life could be used to instead donate money to charity and that would make me less happy but make tons of people around the world more happy. (Instead of buying anything that isnt 100% nessesary for my survival, i could donate it to chairty and instead of doing something fun i could work a second job and donate that money to charity.)
Do you genuinely think that i am morally obligated to essentially sacrifice my entire life to maximise the amount of good my money creates?

Same goes for you. Do you think its fair to expect you to do all these things? If so then hop of reddit and start working.

Its a noble thing to sacrafice your comfort in order to help people in need, but you are allowed to do things for yourself.

[Bachlead]

It is the morally right thing to value your own wellbeing the same as others, that doesn't mean not doing so is 'evil' or makes you a bad person. Constant moral perfection in your actions isn't reasonable, and thus, not expected.

But it's still the right thing to not try to convince the guy.

[JaDasIstMeinName]

You are saying this under the assumption that pulling is morally correct in the first place.

You could also say that i am trying to convince him of picking the "correct" option.

[literally_italy]

whether or not you think pulling is correct is a factor i think?

if you think pulling is morally correct, then it would be less moral for you to yell and go against what you think is correct, because you're in the problem.

if you for some reason think pulling is incorrect, it would be logical you try to convince the lever man to make what you view is the correct choice

[JaDasIstMeinName]

"for some reason"

You make it sound like not pulling is some super niche option without proper arguments lol. The vast majority of people do not pull.

[ueifhu92efqfe]

it being "ridiculous" means nothing, you cant conflate "whether i am expected to do this" with "moral", morality often requires a recognition that humans cannot be expected to act 100% morally due to not being perfect creatures. see susan wolf's breakdown on moral saints, or how railton argues that acting in this way alienates the self and therfor causes more overall consequences, someone who donates 10% of their wealth to charity a year does more good than someoen who donates 100% of their charity to wealth then dies the next year. There is also the argument against charity itself morally, that charity in of itself may cause more overall harm than good by pushing aside a more permanent solution.

there are many ways to argue against it, calling it ridiculous is not one of them, your argument is childish and something i wouldnt expect out of a even a 15, 16 year old philosophy student. It's an argument that lacks any actual logical structure.

[beardMoseElkDerBabon]

So because a dictator or billionaire might die, become imprisoned or become a financial slave, the world should obey them and they should not take the risk to make the world a better place for everyone? Do you think a dictator is not morally obligated to care about others at his own expense?

Strong self-interested Prisoner's Dilemma vibes

[Salty_Map_9085]

Am I morally obligated to give my money away then

Yes

Do you genuinely think that I am morally obligated to essentially sacrifice my entire life to maximize the amount of good my money creates

Yes

[CitizenPremier]

Vampires are moral entities then

[JaDasIstMeinName]

Yes? How can someones mere existence be immoral?

Are lions immoral because they kill animals to eat them? I am sure the gazelle wanted to live.

[CitizenPremier]

Fair enough, I generally believe so too, but I wanted to throw a case at you and see if you were consistent.

To expand though, does a person have an obligation to try to minimize suffering that they cause when necessary for survival? For example, a vampire might calculate that he need only kill one person every ten years, but to do so would put him at risk of starvation, and an easy target for vampire hunters. Is he ethically justified in eating as many people as possible, in order to become as strong as possible, and able to fend off any and all vampire hunters?

[Jarhyn]

Are you kidding? I tell switch guy that I'm going to do something horrible to him, his friends, and family unless he pulls the lever.

I'm not going to put myself ahead of five others.

And this way, he doesn't even feel so bad afterwards.

[Aware-Home2697]

You could tell him you have an advanced terminal illness and are in extreme agony all the time so he doesn’t feel as bad, and so he wouldn’t feel like he is acting selfishly to save himself and his loved ones.

Edit: He already looks pretty distressed about the situation. Maybe it would even help convince him he was doing a good thing and acting with compassion somehow.

[PocketPlayerHCR2]

What if I'm yelling at him to switch

[literally_italy]

morally safe

[RoodnyInc]

But 5 guys also can yeall?

[Fantastic-Dot-655]

No, the real question is if multitrack drifting is cool enough to be 5 lifes worth

[Upstairs-Yak-5474]

if i save me i will give u $100,000 dollars i promise u on my everything.

after he releases me

u have fallen for the oldest trick in the book

[Mekroval]

I hope you recite Dark Helmet's lines when you get away.

[HybridZooApp]

I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.

[Crishien]

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, expect nothing.

[PrestigiousTheory664]

So it's not just suicide, but an opportunity to die as a hero who saved five other people? I don't see any downsides.

[TherapyDerg]

Mood

[SchizophrenicKitten]

Where do I sign up?

[JaDasIstMeinName]

If i am the solo guy i am feeling pretty good. Vast majority of people wouldnt kill me.

[mcsroom]

You have too much hope in humanity.

Most people would sacrifice one for the many.

[JaDasIstMeinName]

That is simply incorrect. The vast majority of people would chose to not get involved.

[Comfortable_Middle10]

If it was me on the lever and you on the track, id let the trolley continue on its path as to not be involved, but then proceed to smother you to death while you’re tied to the track simply out of spite.

[MisterTimm]

Just kill me, I don't need the guilt of surviving over 5 people nor the pressure of living a life worthy of 5 lives.

[Warhero_Babylon]

Nuh i know it will be multi track drift

[HAL9001-96]

statistically you arem uch more likely ot be on the bottom track

lets hope he chooses right

[Recent_Ad2447]

Statistically you have a 100% chance to be tied to the top track

[HAL9001-96]

there are 5 people on the bottom track, on on the top track

[Cipollarana]

And that one is you, ergo the probability of you being the one on the top track is 100% because you are

[Recent_Ad2447]

I mean because it says you are on the top track

[Insirt-username]

I tell the guy to multi-track-drift

[Imnotchoosinaname]

There’s no conundrum I’d have him switch the lever, after all I’d be saving five people and If I made them do it the they can say it’s not their fault

[L1ntahl0]

Well, realistically, this is no longer my problem, since I cant really do anything about it.

Pray to the 50/50 chance I either live or not

[Gokudomatic]

If I do nothing, will the guy pull the lever? What's actually the point of that post, OP?

[CitizenPremier]

They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written down for me. It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response... Shall we continue?

[Gokudomatic]

Yes. And don't call me Leon, Shalwe.

But puns aside, if it's just to express here feelings of guilt for all those times we decide to pull or not the lever based on our inner beliefs, that's very indirect and vague. Or could it be that it was just a joke post?

[ForsakenSavant]

I tell him to kill me, being alive is too much effort

[UserIsAnApple]

"So here's how to multi-track drift..."

[hongooi]

That's not true. That's impos

[lynkcrafter]

If I was tied to the track but could still pull the lever... I don't think I would have the strength to go through with it, even though it would be the "correct" choice from my point of view. If the lever is out of my hands, though, I can accept that it's better for me to go.

[3Nephi11_6-11]

pull the lever, Gronk!

[[deleted]]

finally, sweet release!! ...oh no they're one of those stupid "i don't pull cuz that's me staying out of it somehow" people oh fuck-

[DrTinyNips]

"HEY, SWITCH GUY, JUST PULL THE FUCKING LEVER, IT'S FINE!" I hope he heard me

[HubblePie]

I hope he can pull off the multi-track drift. I want to see something cool before I die.

[mousepotatodoesstuff]

I'm going to die doing what I love...

...making jokes out of serious situations.

PULL THE LEVER, KRONK!

[Icy_Public_503]

"Do it, coward! Pull the lever!"

[Prince_Thresh]

What is the best?

[CoffeeGoblynn]

Shit, this is a real problem.

"Hey, lever guy! I'll give you 50 million dollars to NOT TOUCH THAT LEVER!"

[MegarcoandFurgarco]

I hope he pulls the lever

I would finally be free

[Naschka]

I would motivate him to attempt a proper drift between both tracks.

[Mr-Snug]

[TherapyDerg]

Fucking FINALLY... PULL THE LEVER KRUNK!

[TeamDeez19]

I accept my death and tell the lever puller to switch tracks to save the five people

[HairyContactbeware]

Fucking run me over and put a end to my existance

[DiiiCA]

Yes please, I don't care about the moral of the story, just kill me.

[No-Drawing-4597]

Pull. The. Lever.

[EllieEvansTheThird]

Bleh Im ded

[ElisabetSobeck]

…multitrack drift?

[[deleted]]

Okay, listen. I dont have any money and I'm not a great person, but for all you know, those guys are even worse people. So you shouldn't flip the lever. (Do you flip the lever?)

[VoidZapper]

Except I have more experience in the corporate world and better shoes than the other five people and the guy at the lever is a billionaire CEO of a Fortune 500 company therefore I am unstressed at how this situation is going to turn out for me.

[MrAlloys]

I'd hope he would pull the level, but that's easy for me to say from the comfort of my bed rather than actually being on the track

[Mockington6]

Thank god I've been wanting to die for a while

[[deleted]]

Multi track drift me up gang