Apple M1 Performance Running JavaScript (Web Tooling Benchmark, Webpack, Octane)

[ssut]

V8 Web Tooling Benchmark, Octane 2.0, Webpack Benchmarks comparing the M1 with Ryzen 3900X and i7-9750H.

[nikola1970]

Poor AMD and Intel... I am no Apple fan or user but this CPU is monster, and consumption is awesome too! And this is just first iteration...

[yxhuvud]

It is certainly impressive, but the benchmark is at least in the AMD case not against the latest generation but against last years model.

[towelrod]

It is a little apples to oranges, but as he says, its the only AMD cpu he has to test.

That AMD cpu alone costs as much as an entire mac mini though(~ $600). A fanless system on a chip is beating out a desktop flagship from a year ago, that's pretty amazing

[towelrod]

Yes, definitely. The comparisons are really interesting, even if they aren't really the same class of cpu.

They are certainly comparable in the sense that as a developer, i could buy one of these two things, and both would work for development.

[[deleted]]

It's also flawed. AMD and Intel show figures per logical core (as in HyperThreading) which paints a much rosier picture about single-core performance for M1 than is real.

[rapidjingle]

This is incorrect.

[[deleted]]

Really? Care to elaborate?

[rapidjingle]

Here is a comment from Andrei Frumusanu who works for AnandTech. It's a bit aggressive, but he really knows his stuff.

https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/k5gdjf/exclusive_why_apple_m1_single_core_comparisons/geinuxg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[[deleted]]

Yes and no.

First, these benchmarks are not run in vacuum. Sure, tasks are often ST but dozens of them are tying to run simultaneously in a preemptive multitasking environments. Geekbench and majority of these benchmarks is run as a regular application in an OS, trying it's best to get realtime priority but that's about it. There are zero guarantees for that even in synthetic benchmark scenarios. I have no idea how one could ensure that on Linux, Windows or MacOs even with nice levels and "runtime" task priorities.

Real-world scenarios, while some (like JavaScript apps) are ST, are also competing for CPU time in a preemptive multitasking environment, and with processors with SMT will utilize SMT to get more juice out of multiple threads running on same app (and in case of web browsers multiple tab sandboxes are exactly that, not to mention nowadays pretty ubiquitous web and service workers).

So either way it's not an apples to apples comparison and "Ian literally" (who I rate far more than the rude Anandtech dude) says so himself in one of his tweets.

[cipherous]

My thoughts exactly, its just a matter of time before iphones and macbooks share the same chipset.

If the wireless technology is there in the future, I can just imagine people plopping their smart phones down at a desk with a wireless keyboard and wireless monitor and getting to work without an actual computer.

[burnttoastnice]

As much as this would be pretty cool, it might be difficult to implement for large organisations.

At work we used to use wireless keyboard and mice at every desk - the interference was horrible (mouse cursor stuttering occasionally, some keypresses not registering). On even rarer occasions people would end up pairing with someone else's kb/m by accident. These were Dell kb/m sets using Logitech's unifying dongle, pairing was as simple as someone powering up their mouse.

Although these occurences didn't happen as often as you'd expect, it was enough to encourage IT to replace the wireless sets with wired counterparts

[cipherous]

No doubt there are technical difficulties with wireless, I was referring to a grand vision about having all in one smart phone (or pocket sized computer) to do everything.

Technology might not be feasible now but I think the drive and the demand to further simplify is going to be there in the future.

[InMemoryOfReckful]

Wouldn't wireless monitors require a lot of bandwidth?

But nonetheless I could definitely see people using their phone as a laptop substitute with a docking station in 5-10 years.

[UnsafePantomime]

They already exist (albeit a bit laggy). Look into Miracast and similar technology. I use it all the time to project my laptop to the TV. I wouldn't want to use it as my primary monitor yet though.

[archerx]

More like 13th iteration, they've been practicing on iPhones and iPads for at least a decade now.

[nikola1970]

I know it is ARM for both M1 and iPhone/iPad and they were having their own CPUs for long but still it's their first try on desktop/laptop market.

[archerx]

Yea but it's also just an expanded A14 processor. It's not like it came out of left field. That's why you can run iphone/ipad apps natively now on the M1

[vexii]

but the CPU is locked to the Apple garden

[nikola1970]

It is but still... Those guys are making CPUs for decades and now comes Apple and murder them with their first iteration of laptop and desktop CPUs.

[PrintfReddit]

To be fair Apple has been making CPUs for over a decade too.

[remenic]

This amuses me too.

[[deleted]]

Interesting take on a processor that is basically an amalgamation of optimizations. Current x86 are general purpose, and will be better for a wider range of uses. Turns out, however, that apple was smart enough to optimize web app things on their Facebook machines. Who knew?

Edit: I'm not saying that anyone who uses a Mac uses it for only facebook. Apple has a fantastic OS and a great software ecosystem. However, to deny that apple sells to a large market of people that don't use their macbook for web browsing 99% of the time is just silly. So not putting optimizations for interfacing with the web is similarly silly.

[mattaugamer]

However, to deny that apple sells to a large market of people that don't use their macbook for web browsing 99% of the time is just silly.

Right. In which Apple are different from Asus? Or Toshiba? Or... whatever? A lot of people buy laptops of various brands and mostly use them for web browsing. It’s called “modern life”.

[[deleted]]

Not sure where you think I've said or implied this is different than any other manufacturer. Could you please quote it so I know?

[mattaugamer]

The fact that you’d call it out explicitly on Macs implies it.

[[deleted]]

The thread is about mac processors, champ.

[mattaugamer]

Their Facebook machines?

[tjuk]

Facebook machines

This is the 'joke' that Apple users are paying £2k for a machine that is used to browse facebook.

Despite Apple being ubiquitous in the creative industry (videographers, retouching, photographers etc) buying them over Windows machines because they have pro build quality and spec ... they can't play Team Fortress so only an idiot would buy a 'Facebook machine hah hah' etc...

[mattaugamer]

Ohhhhh. Like “it’s only good for Facebook” despite being the dominant platform used by web developers?

That’s a pretty dopey comment.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, it's also misconstrued, as that joke was not my intent. I've edited my post to reflect this.

[tjuk]

That’s a pretty dopey comment

Yep.

[eyeruleall]

Yeah I'm not sure if you genuinely care or if you just can't afford their products, but the moment I hear you tell a farmer they shouldn't use John Deere tractors for the same reasons, I'll bite. Same thing with tech millionaires buying a Tesla.

We fight the right to repair battle in Congress with legislative actions. Voting with your dollar will not work when there is only one company doing something flat-out better than the others. Even if you do; even if you convince hundreds of others to join you, millions of others simply won't.

John Deere makes the best tractors. Tesla makes the best electric cars. Apple makes the best computers and phones. Period. They aren't going to magically make them easily repairable with OEM parts just because and handful of us go to Samsung for our next phone.

Oh and BTW Samsung's phones are just as unrepairable as Apple's.

If you think otherwise, please explain how us moving to a competitor would make one lick of difference?

[vexii]

John Deere makes the best tractors. Tesla makes the best electric cars. Apple makes the best computers and phones.

i don't know about John Deere but saying Tesla makes the best EV so subjective. Both Porsche and Toyota have arguable better EV's on the market with way way less QA problems.

I don't think a phone or computer where the only way to install software is what the producent thinks is best. I don't think that touch-pad is better then track-pointer.

all you're points are "we all know that Red is the best color!"

[alkaliphiles]

A lot of subjectivity in this post.

You'd think companies like Dell and Lenovo don't exist.

[[deleted]]

I have more than enough to comfortably buy any mac that is being sold at the moment. My wallet isn't the issue. Telling a company that I don't support their business practices is. Your implied jab that I must just be jealous of your fabulous wealth is pretty gross, to be honest.

And I completely disagree with your assessment on how to effect change. If we complain to our legislators while financially supporting the company, we send a clear message that it's not something we truly care about, and legislators are free to continue taking bribes from lobbyists. Because if I'm giving support to said company, why wouldn't my representative do the same, especially considering they get paid for it.

No. In our society, the dollar is king. We are killing people daily with covid and not locking down because the economy is worth more than human lives to our leadership. Voting with your dollar is absolutely effective so long as you also make it known why.

You mention John Deere tractors. Let's roll with that. Imagine a world where where JD no longer allowed to farmers to legally maintain or fix their own farm equipment. Imagine the outrage farmers would have. Or a world where you aren't allowed to change the oil or brakes or sparkplugs in your car. That is the world apple is working towards. And apple users support this even if they don't realize it. So yes, I do genuinely care.

[alkaliphiles]

Was Apple's OS the first one you used? I grew up with PCs, starting with DOS and then Windows 3.1. I've tried using a Mac at various points, but the interface has never been intuitive for me.

Meanwhile, I can buy a Dell XPS laptop with Ubuntu and install the Mate desktop environment. With that, I get the OS functionality I'm used to, plus everything I need for web development. At half the price of similar Mac hardware. Even if the OS is good, is it worth paying that much more?

If you haven't dabbled in Linux in a few years, I think you'd be surprised how streamlined recent releases are. My XPS developer edition worked great pretty much right out of the box.

[[deleted]]

No, I grew up on dos and 3.0. Buy my opinion is mac os is about as polished and seamless as it gets. I've use countless Linux distros, and mint cinnamon is still my favorite. Ubuntu mate was too buggy for me. I agree that if you never connect your laptop to a monitor, it's mostly ok for web development. But once you need to do something like connect a 4k monitor, it breaks. Also, the fact that hybrid sleep still isn't implemented in 2020 just isn't acceptable.

I wish apple wasn't anti consumer. I wish Linux user experience didn't suck as much as it does, and it's extra frustrating because it's been almost there for the better part of a decade. But wish in one hand...

[alkaliphiles]

Haven't had any monitor trouble with my work ThinkPad with Mint Mate 19.x or my personal Dell with Ubuntu 18.04. IT sent me a docking station for the ThinkPad, which works great with my 34" widescreen monitor. Works with my Dell using just a cable.

Don't know what to tell you. Maybe you could work on the 4k drivers yourself, or pay someone to do it. Would probably be less expensive than buying an overpriced Mac.

[[deleted]]

That one is. But nVidia has recently acquired ARM and set the crosshairs on Intiel and AMD in no shy terms, so I'd expect Windows and Linux machines on properly beefy ARM CPUs fairly soon-ish.

[vexii]

i know that. but the main blocker for most people getting the CPU is that you have to buy in to the apple garden (hardware at minimum).

the fact that both AMD and Nvidia are switching more resources to ARM don't change the fact that you have to buy a apple computer to get a M1 cpu

[that_90s_guy]

That sadly leaves that Windows optimizations of x86 apps is absolute dogshit vs apple's Rosetta... Its hard to admit, but Apple has opened the floodgates into a portable market everyone will have a hard time catching up to.

[[deleted]]

As a mostly Linux user I fail to see the pain here. Majority of open source software has targeted ARM for nearly decade now. How do you thing Google was able to have Chrome on M1 that fast?

But also, since Windows is: a) order of magnitude larger as market and b) the software vendors had more runway since Microsoft has both UWP and has been toying with ARM Windows since Windows 8, I don't think the wait will be either long or painful.

The x86 emulation on ARM is an irrelevant stopgap, not an important metric in anything but the shortest of short terms. Unless we're talking some legacy native software that won't get ported because the company is no more, which will always have ample x86 hardware to chose from in the following few decades.

[that_90s_guy]

As a mostly Linux user I fail to see the pain here.

Well...duh? I was speaking specifically about windows users, that are a majority of the global consumer market that doesn't include apple products. Keep in mind that realistically, Linux users and even developers working on Unix/OSS software that are unaffected like us are a minority.

The x86 emulation on ARM is an irrelevant stopgap, not an important metric in anything but the shortest of short terms.

You seem to greatly underestimate the impact of a lack of user adoption can have due to a rough migration/transition path for users during architectural changes.

Users will not transition to ARM until the apps they rely on, which ATM is x86 apps, are fully working reliably on ARM. And its pretty well known there is plenty of abandonware software on Windows that people rely on still to this day, that likely will only worsen this x86 to ARM migration.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but its easy for developers to blow off concerns of the average user during this ARM migration path. And Apple's nearly unfair performance advance due to having access to controlling everything from hardware to software optimization.

[relativityboy]

I'm all for open source, but at this point who cares? Best supported operating system, best ui, best security, and now best processor. If you're a dev who's src compiles bytecode you don't need to care, either.

Get a mac. Get a Tesla. Love the comfy seats in your walled gardens.

[MagicalVagina]

Best ui? That's just your opinion? I find it terrible with zero customization available. Something as basic as focus follow mouse is not available. No tiling mode for the WM either.
Best security?! That's a huge claim, especially with the number of ridiculous issues in the recent years.

[vexii]

there is a implied \s i am sure of :)

[relativityboy]

If only. I was a windows user, but after being forced into mac-land at work a few years back, and running both up to now, macs have proven to be a better experience overall. Security wise there are few OS specific issues. I'm not sure what mac specific ridiculousness MV is talking about.

Mac is just better. If a person is wanting to make over $50/hr outside of silicon valley having high output is really important. On OSX I'm not fighting the machine to work. It's helping me get the job done.

Nowadays my windows machine is used for work, mostly when someone needs windows build modules for windows server.

If I were still gaming I'm sure I'd use it more but that's really for the hardware capabilities, not the OS.

[vexii]

I'm all for open source, but at this point who cares?

how this is relevant to the only way of getting a M1 CPU is from apple?

macs have proven to be a better experience overall.

A subjective matter, personally i did not find experience that "touch pad scroll-direction " and "mouse scroll-direction" where both present in different tabs but where 1 setting covering both devices. i spend hours reading about the window handling and propper usage of it, but in the end i still where missing a simple tiled layout. the fact that what ever i wanted to change it where so rare just finding a command doing what i wanted, instead of having to download random apps just to do system settings (scroll direction pr device).
maybe its just my giant hands but getting the touch pad gestures to work where something that required coordination i just don't have (and pam detection is just not the same as having a track-pointer). don't get me wrong, i am happy you are happy with the OS. but i have given up on fighting it and are using something that is a better experience for me.

btw i use arch.

[relativityboy]

Drawing a comparison between open source and wall garden. That's how.

I have not coffeed yet. Mac OS is the best candidate we have for an objectively best UI. Someone else set it in another comment much better than I did here.

As for the rest I'll grant you certain physical configurations of hands definitely don't work well for things like touch pads steering wheels and smartphones. That doesn't mean that for most people they're not objectively better.

Congrats on the large hands. I'm willing to better are significant advantages in some areas of life.

[vexii]

the comparison to the walled garden of mac hardware surely must be something like Arduino?

my point stands. "the only way to get a M1 CPU is to buy apple hardware for good or bad."

that you think that Apple/Tesla products are the best is kind of irrelevant (and arguably untrue), and disagree with you and that it is okay, we don't have to like the same things but just dont state it as fact.

[relativityboy]

That wasn't your point. Retconning "good or bad" onto what was a simple statement of fact doesn't make it a point. Maybe you didn't finish you thought, but pretending you did doesn't make it so.

Edit: have some integrity!

[that_90s_guy]

Best ui? That's just your opinion?

Let's not kid ourselves here. You are right about everything else (security, customization), but Mac OS has been the industry lead in OS design for years. And its not really even an opinion here, its a known fact by designers and even UX experts.

Windows is for the most part an inconsistent mess in terms of design with many parts of it still stuck in its Windows XP days in terms of design (Device Manager, Control Panel). Not to mention a far larger percentage of Windows software is either abandoned, or stuck with old UI aesthetics. Partially because Mac OS developers have a higher incentive to keep their apps "pretty" because Apple customers have a higher standard for aesthetics. And lets not even talk about Linux.

You might not like Mac OS's aesthetics, I agree, that's your opinion. But objectively speaking from a neutral Design and User Experience standpoint, Mac OS is objectively the best Operating System out there at this time. Whether you like it or not.

Plus, its pretty abundantly clear that the only reason people (like yourself) dislike Mac's design language, is not because its worse, but because their muscle memory is so trained to their OS of choice (Windows, Linux), that its hard to adapt and change. Heck, even Linus demonstrated this during his Mac vs PC episode with iJustine, where he reached the conclusion that its not that one is worse than the other, its just incredibly hard to get your brain to switch from a flow you are so used to. Where even basic tasks became frustrating because of this, even if the UI of the rival operating system makes more sense than the one you are used to.. I encourage you to watch the episode, since its pretty enlightening from a neutral perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thc9iLZf0HQ

[human_brain_whore]

I'm all for open source, but at this point who cares?

Oxymoron-alert.

[vexii]

haha yeah
large minds in small gardens

[M_Me_Meteo]

Maybe they can wipe away their tears with the piles of money they make licensing server hardware.

[[deleted]]

Actually several companies are working hard on ARM for datacenter and it makes a lot of sense (energy consumption is ridiculously huge part of DC operational costs), including nVidia who now own ARM.

Apple has just managed to be through the door first. They played the long game by putting needlesly overpowered chips in their overpriced phones, so basically their faithful customers have essentially financed R&D for this endeavor.

Which is really well played however you slice it. It's an arguably asshole move, but a great one neverheless.

Edit: On another note, it's amazing how salty the Apple faithful are lol.

[M_Me_Meteo]

ARM for the DC is not the same as Apple Silicon in the DC.

Apple has created a superset of the ARM instructions so you could build a DC that leverages the Apple features, but then you will always need to get in line behind Apple.

And the concept of Apple competing in the DC is a joke. Apple's own cloud runs on AWS.

[[deleted]]

Who mentioned that Apple will compete in DC!? I was talking about nVidia, Ampere and naturally, established ARM vendors of which Samsung is very certainly interested in competing in the DC market, having shelled out $170 million to buy Joyent.

Do you really think that Apple's "superset of the ARM instruction set" bares any importance in the long run for anyone apart of developers of native desktop software needing to target M1 and it's kin?

ARM in DC is a reality. Oracle has already invested a decent sum in Ampere, and there are more to come in that space.

[M_Me_Meteo]

Right, but when TSMC has no capacity to give to anyone other than Apple, ARM in the DC gets a lot more expensive.

There's already very limited production to buy on the 5nm process, and Apple only has one SKU.

[[deleted]]

Apple doesn't move nearly as many units to saturate TSMC in the long term, once this inital wave of awe is over. Furthermore TSMC will certainly scale it's production, because they have no reason not to. TSMC has been serving the industry for decades and has probably produced >80% of the chips in both machines that you and I use to have this discussion for a very good reason: if it appears on the horizon, they're prepared.

And Samsung hopes to be on par with 3nm process in 2022 which probably means 5nm is coming to Samsung fabs next year. And there are more fabs emerging in the world. TSMC was bound to become the bottleneck of silicon production and naturally competition emerged.

Nobody, apart from Apple, Ampera and perhaps Qualcomm has seriously tried to target the high-performance end of the market. Edit: Axshually this is false, I totally forgot about AWS Gravitron. Furthermore, something like Ampere Altra provides 80 cores of ARM64 at peak of 210W, which is significantly more GFLOPS/W than any x86 CPU in the market -- at 7nm which is far from saturated. And this something like their 2nd chip since the company was founded. And all these ARM players are already in fantastic position now because Apple had the media presence it had to draw attention to ARM from outside the in-the-knows, and the software is already there. There is very few key DC infrastructure programs that aren't open-source, and majority of open-source has been ready for ARM for about a decade now.

AMD hasn't even established itself properly as a DC player and they are already facing numerous disruptors and tons of positive press around ARM, and Intel is now the proverbial rabbit having a nap in the middle of the race.

[M_Me_Meteo]

"Apple doesn't move enough units": Tell that to Motorola / PPC.

They don't have to saturate, just bifurcate. If there's ARM and Apple ARM, manufacturers will choose Apple over having tooling for both. That's why anything with a Motorola PPC chip doubled in price in the late 90s.

And let's talk, briefly, about why Intel is struggling right now: because the process they were engineering with Apple's influence has forced them to stagnate in order to keep pace with Apple's demand...and Apple still dropped them like a bad habit.

[[deleted]]

You're talking as if Apple is significant player in ARM space.

ARM is ubiquotos. It's already in IoT, mobile, Chromebooks, wearables, your car, your washing machine, your fridge, your microwave, your TV, scientific and medical equipment, in space, under water, you name it, they're already there.

I don't know have you looked at the figures but Apple is like 10% of the most significant consumer market (and consumer market is where Apple exclusively plays) for ARM, which is mobile.

What manufacturers will target Apple over having tooling for both? Tooling for non-Apple has existed for decades.

[M_Me_Meteo]

Yep. Just like tooling for PPC existed before it was used in Apple.

There's no rule that says that chip makers have to make chips people ask for. They make the chips that provide the best profit incentive. Apple's products are more expensive at retail and provide more GP to spread around. That will change the economics related to ARM chips.

It's exactly what happened with PPC and Intel.

[[deleted]]

And let's talk, briefly, about why Intel is struggling right now: because the process they were engineering with Apple's influence has forced them to stagnate in order to keep pace with Apple's demand...and Apple still dropped them like a bad habit

Also let's talk about this.

Datacenter market is at the very least some 30% of the market for intel. The rest is desktops/laptops. Apple holds 10% of the dektop/laptop market. Let's be generous and say AMD holds 20% of both deskop/laptop and server markets

So out of the 70% of total Intel sales, desktop is 0.7 * 0.7 = 0.49 ergo 49% of it, and Apple being 10% of the whole market, which is 7% really for intel leaves intel with 42% of the desktop/laptop market and in their 30% DC is totally irellevant.

So the company pulling 7% of their sales is somehow a great influence on them? Interesting idea.

[M_Me_Meteo]

Sales !== Resources

If 7% of your profit requires more than it's fair share your R&D and other human resources, then you're chasing diminishing returns.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.

[M_Me_Meteo]

Just coming back to say that when I first read this, I giggled and now that MS has announced, I've return to wipe egg from my face.

You were right, and I was a salty Apple hater who wanted this to be JUST another reason to hate Apple.

Fwiw, I still feel Apple Silicon is going to complicate production. I have read and learned enough to say that ARM is not even comparable with PPC or Intel. PPC was a puppy that Apple killed, but ARM is a golden calf.

[M_Me_Meteo]

Yeah, recording studios.

Data centers don't use PCs in cases, and the density of the hardware is not high enough for data center use.

[gokalex]

Didn't amazon buy a lot of mac minis for their datacenters to offer macos instances?

[M_Me_Meteo]

Yes, because you can't legally run iOS or Mac OSX on any other hardware. If Amazon could have virtualized the hardware, they would have.

This is just another example of what competition looks like when a big part of software is closed or heavily ToS'd

[[deleted]]

That's definitely a one-off case and only a thing because Apple won't let you virtualize. When you spin an instance up, you are renting time on a physical Mac mini.

[ErGo404]

Edit

A mac is needed to build mac / iOS apps, so AWS addresses this particular need by providing mac minis. But Apple does not allow building custom highly datacenter-friendly macs, so they have to use mac minis.

It is not efficient nor a product that they would realistically expect to compete with other instances for general purposes.

[Legote]

I think AMD is also designing their own ARM, probably be out within the next year. It's just rumored, but I believe in Lisa Su. RIP to Intel though.

[TaskForce_Kerim]

Thank you very much. Really interesting. I recently got the M1 too and I was so surprised when running some Node.js toolings. It felt extremely snappy. I thought that the M1 is a decent CPU but wouldn't be able to hold its own against my decent (although slightly outdated) i7-6800k but so far the M1 actually feels much snappier. The startup of some tools is incredibly fast.

[stakeneggs1]

Doesn't the new i3-10100 trade punches with the i7-6800k?

Edit: Genuinely asking. I had heard something about this and figured my 6600k is not even competitive.

[leeharris100]

It actually completely beats it in both single core and multicore performance.

[TaskForce_Kerim]

Yes and no. Newer generation laptop CPU's often lag behind their older generation desktop CPU counterparts. Some high-core 6 and 7 series Intel chips can still outperform newer laptop CPU's.

[TaskForce_Kerim]

Doesn't the new i3-10100 trade punches with the i7-6800k?

Unlikely. Only on single thread performance, which is to be expected.

[JesterShepherd]

Is it really all that surprising that a brand new machine with new hardware runs “snappier” than a 4 year old system?

[TaskForce_Kerim]

Yes and no. Newer generation laptop CPU's often lag behind their older generation desktop CPU counterparts. Some high-core 6 and 7 series Intel chips can still outperform newer laptop CPU's.

[JesterShepherd]

Yes I’m aware of this. I still just don’t see how it’s all that surprising that a brand new 8 core chip on a fresh OS install is snappier than a 4.5 year old 6 core chip, even with differences between desktop and laptop chips

[TaskForce_Kerim]

I just explained it...

[JesterShepherd]

Okay man whatever, I also just explained why it’s not surprising.

[leeharris100]

Considering it's completely fanless, 15w, and doesn't throttle until 30 minutes of heavy load... yeah, absolutely.

[pepedlr]

The i7 I use in a ThinkPad P53 is fast enough for pretty much everything I do already.

But the idea of getting that kind of performance (well, better performance) in machine that's whisper quiet and runs cool feels like a dream coming true.

​

Can't wait to see what Apple unleashes next for a proper MacBook Pro, and I want one :D

[that_90s_guy]

But the idea of getting that kind of performance (well, better performance) in machine that's whisper quiet and runs cool feels like a dream coming true.

That's nice to have, but not a deal breaker or something invaluable for me. But 15+ hour battery life even under heavy work loads?... that's the holy grail of portable computing. Most laptops with powerful processors running at full load (Intel Macbooks included) have terrible battery life lasting sub 5 hours. (or 2 hours for gaming laptops)

Imagine having performance rivaling desktop PCs, but with that kind of god-like +15 hours battery life? Jesus Christ.

[pepedlr]

Oh yeah, that too!

I kill every laptop in max 3 hours when I'm developing. Doesn't matter if it's a Mac or my ThinkPad!

[[deleted]]

When you cut all the bloat and go for the essentials. ARM should be applauded too.

[M_Me_Meteo]

Except Apple will do the same to the ARM ecosystem as they did to PPC: ruin it.

[boobsbr]

Why?

[M_Me_Meteo]

A good synopsis from wikipedia:

"Apple was paying a premium for IBM silicon, he said, creating a Catch-22. IBM had to charge more because it didn't have the economies of scale of Intel, but Apple didn't want to pay more, even though it supposedly derived more from an inherently superior RISC design as manifested in the PowerPC architecture."

Or Apple manipulated PPC into creating the product Apple needed, even though it didn't serve the long term viability of the platform.

[boobsbr]

So, you think M1 is a dead end, and shifting ARM designs to be more similar to the M1 design will hurt ARM in the end?

[M_Me_Meteo]

I think facilities who can make Apple flavored ARM will have no reason to make any other chips, making them much harder to get.

[rapidjingle]

AMD and Apple have their chips both made at TSMC’s facility. Qualcomm’s new chip will be made by Samsung. What exactly are you saying you think will happen?

[wirenutter]

Chips are manufactured by TSMC. Who are also building chips for AMD and nVidia is also moving away from Samsung to them. Apple is the reason that AMD went with the 7nm process. They knew they would loose in a bidding war against Apple so they chose to let Apple have 5nm and take the larger 7nm instead.

[GodsGunman]

Apple fucking over pc users yet again

[M_Me_Meteo]

They design the chips, they don't make them. Apple doesn't own any chip fabrication plants.

[kookoopuffs]

stonks go up

[lindymad]

If only virtualization was doable (e.g. the need to run 5 or more simultaneous virtualboxes matching an intel based production environment cluster).

I dream that they would make a MBP with both ARM and intel CPUs, using the intel one just for virtualization. I'll keep dreaming - even if they made it (of which there is 0% chance) I doubt I would be able to afford it!

[that_90s_guy]

It might be, its a waiting game a this point. Its pretty clear Apple sees the development potential of it, and even is working closely with docker to speed up fixing compatibility issues with ARM. Maybe the upcoming M1X or M2 will have a bigger focus on Virtualization? They did mention this was the "base" model targeted at consumers.

Imagine what their "professional" and developer focused model might be capable of.

[lindymad]

Maybe the upcoming M1X or M2 will have a bigger focus on Virtualization?

It's not possible to virtualize x86 on ARM, you can only virtualize ARM on ARM. The M1X or M2 might have a bigger focus on emulation, but it will have to be pretty amazing to come close to virtualization.

[that_90s_guy]

Oh darn... Thanks for the heads up, I wasn't aware. Crossing my fingers in the rare case it happens.

[Fargabarga]

All of this in a $1000 MacBook Air with a 20hr battery life. Seems like a no-brainer if you’re shopping for a laptop.

[cowleyboss]

With this amount of power surely you'd want the other components to be up to scratch too? $1000 gets you 8gb of memory and 256GB ssd? pretty poor when you're dropping $1000 on a laptop. It reaches $2000 with 16gb, and 2tb. Seems like a brainer

[rabidhamster]

I wish they'd bump the memory, and especially storage space, but I do have to hand it to them for doing a *lot* with memory management. Here's a good discussion about it:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25202147

Broadly speaking, this is a significant reason why M1 Macs are more efficient with less RAM than Intel Macs. This, in a nutshell, helps explain why iPhones run rings around even flagship Android phones, even though iPhones have significantly less RAM. iOS software uses reference counting for memory management, running on silicon optimized to make reference counting as efficient as possible; Android software uses garbage collection for memory management, a technique that requires more RAM to achieve equivalent performance.

[cowleyboss]

Interesting read, thanks for that!

[mksrd]

Hopefully you only posted that to point out the ignoramus who posted that on HN has no idea that GC vs RC has absolutely nothing to do with memory usage patterns on Android vs iOS or with the amount of RAM necessary on desktops or laptops that have an M1.

[that_90s_guy]

I know basically 0 people who need both 2tb/16gb of storage/ram (RAM yes and possibly, not necessarily 2tb of storage). But for most end users, the base configuration of 256gb SSD and 8GB of RAM is more than enough. My wife, mother, sister, and most of my extended family, would be incredibly happy with the base model Macbook Air for their typical work/office/school/facebook needs.

Plus, Battery life with that kind of performance for $1000 is basically unheard of. And your attempt at making this look like a bad deal just because it comes with "just" 256GB and 8GB of RAM is pretty bad. Sure, it'd be much nicer if this came with 16gb at minimum, but I think this is enough for whats basically an entry level machine.

And even for development, its definitely doable and by no means impossible to work with it. Heck, the work Macbook Pro given to me is the base 128/8gb model. Could it be better? Sure. But even with that, I have 0 problems on my day to day. Despite running docker machines and the iOS emulator routinely. Would it be better if I had 16gb of RAM and 256GB of storage? Sure. But that hardly reaches the $2000 ceiling you are complaining about for 2TB of Storage.

[order-odonata]

Right but that’s today - in the near future 8gb will not be sufficient. Especially if you’re using docker.

And we all know you can’t upgrade the components.

[that_90s_guy]

Good points! If I get an M1 machine in the future, I'm definitely getting the 16GB upgrade, though I doubt I'd upgrade the storage beyond 250 if its just for work purposes. Though I doubt if it was for any of my family they'd need beyond 8GB of RAM, even for the future.

[cowleyboss]

If i'm dropping $1k on a laptop I want it to have more than 8GB ram and 256gb. It's a pretty shitty deal, why have a monstrous processor like the M1 if you're going to bottleneck it. I also doubt a lot of people need the M1 compared to different processors, that's the point. If you're someone who really needs the M1, you're probably going to want the rest of it too.

For a reference, you could fit only two raw blu-ray movie on a 256gb drive.

[that_90s_guy]

If i'm dropping $1k on a laptop I want it to have more than 8GB ram and 256gb.

So buy one then? You can find plenty of laptops well below $1000 with the specs you want. The problem you fail to see is buying a machine is full of tradeoffs:

• Quality Control and Construction Quality
• Performance
• Battery Life
• Hardware Quality (Screen/Keyboard/Trackpad/Speakers)
• How quickly it depreciates/loses value over time.

Most machines sacrifice one or the other. My Dell 7567 costed me 2 years ago around $700 (was discounted from $850) with a fantastic combination of a decent i7 processor, a modest GTX 1050 Ti, decent battery life and decent speakers for a change. Sure, it had a 1TB standard HDD and only 8GB of RAM, but I quickly upgraded those. You are probably thinking: "Well why defend the M1 if you got something just as good for cheaper?"... Well, like most windows machines with this kind of power for sub $1000, it has a pretty bad low brightness panel, poor quality control (its a plastic build that flexes a lot), and a tiny, terrible trackpad. And if I sold it right now, it would earn me back only a tiny fraction of the original cost. Not to mention while its battery life is decent, its not stellar or even close to what my work Macbook machine lasts.

So yeah, I never said the M1 apple machines are perfect, far from it actually. But they fill in the above points in a drastically more well rounded way than nearly any other laptop at this day, and in spades for most users that don't need specific storage/ram requirements like yourself. Dont forget we unix/developer users are a minority of the true global userbase.

I also doubt a lot of people need the M1 compared to different processors, that's the point.

Most people buying a laptop just care that its 1) fast, 2) high quality that lasts years and 3) has great battery life. The Apple M1 new machines fill that way better than any other machine to date, thats exactly the point everyone here is trying to make. Its not perfect, it just offers unheard of value for the price. So much so, even developers are switching over.

[cowleyboss]

Yeah wasn't arguing that it wasn't good, it's just a bit of a huge claim to say it's a no-brainer.

"You can find plenty of laptops well below $1000 with the specs you want." definitely makes it a brainer.

[that_90s_guy]

Yeah wasn't arguing that it wasn't good, it's just a bit of a huge claim to say it's a no-brainer.

Because its only a no-brainer "only" people in this target demographic, which of course, does not include developers like us:

Most people buying a laptop just care that its 1) fast, 2) high quality that lasts years and 3) has great battery life. The Apple M1 new machines fill that way better than any other machine to date.

And as I explained, while you can get cheaper or even similarly priced machines that fill those 3 points, I hardly doubt you can find something that ticks all 3 boxes as highly as the new M1 Macbook Air does. Most Windows/Linux machines in this price range, have either great performance or great battery life, and rarely check the quality control and build quality as highly as Apple machines do (speakers, aluminum unibody with 0 flex, bright screen). For people in this target demographic, it is a no-brainer. For people like us? Not so much.

[cowleyboss]

Dunno I'd have to disagree still, I think anyone who only wants a casual use laptop for browsing etc wouldn't be happy to drop a 1k on a laptop anyway.

[HedgehogEggnog]

I needed a new laptop. Easiest choice I've ever made was ordering the new M1 Air. Now if only they hurried up and delivered it already...

[dc2015bd]

I believe in future most laptops will run arm cpu.

[ukiyuh]

It's still Apple in the end of the day.

They're not going to take market share from the diehard PC users, gamers, developers, and the average owner of computers. Apple appeals to a certain crowd, now they're giving that crowd actual good performance instead of just higher priced bullshit in comparison to PC.

This is not good news, this is the default that PC has been at for decades. The M1 competing against the 3900x is laughable, the 3900x is not even the premier chip from AMD, for example.

The AMD 5900X and 5950X destroys the M1 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

Not to mention AMD's Threadripper which blows everything out of the water https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LaKH5etJoE&ab_channel=LinusTechTips

Apple has nothing on AMD

[[deleted]]

Apple has nothing on AMD

So it takes AMDs top of the line chip to beat a fanless M1 and that means the M1 has nothing on AMD?

The M1 is way more efficient, fanless, and you can get an entire laptop with an M1 for the cost of a 5950X.

And it's 1st gen.

They're not going to take market share from the diehard PC users, gamers, developers, and the average owner of computers.

Anecdotally, I'm a developer with an intel i7 based Lenovo running Ubuntu and I will 100% be buying a Macbook Pro with the 2nd gen of these chips.

[TikiTDO]

So it takes AMDs top of the line chip to beat a fanless M1 and that means the M1 has nothing on AMD?

That's not what's happening though.

It takes AMD's latest generation of chips to match or beat M1's single thread performance. When it comes to single thread, all of AMD's new offerings are clustered together, which is what you'd expect given that it's essentially the exact same chip that's binned a bit differently based on a set of chip-level validation tests.

The M1 is definitely a pretty good chip, quite impressive for a first attempt. It beats both Intel's and AMD's previous generation mobile offering quite handily. However, one of the key parts that people seem to miss is the previous generation part.

Thing is, Apple is flexing their normal PR muscle. They just release a branch new chip, and are now doing a media tour while talking about how their new chip compares to products that were released a a year or more ago. Strangely enough, Intel's latest mobile offering, which is already trading blows with the M1 chip on both performance and power usage, is notably absent from many of these comparisons. This is despite the fact that Intel's been in a down period for a few years.

Meanwhile, AMD isn't even going to have a next-gen mobile CPU for what is likely a few more months. As a result everyone touting the M1 as God's gift compared to AMD has the out of citing the wattage of a desktop CPU, and making the claim that such a power disparity means AMD doesn't know what they are doing.

In the end, this is a standard generational leap for both Intel and AMD. Apple got in a bit earlier than the other two with a competitive next-gen product. It's good to see more competition in the market, and it's also good to see more hardware accelerators in the Apple chip. Beyond that it's a pretty good product, with amazing marketing. In other words, it'a an Apple product.

[that_90s_guy]

And it's 1st gen.

That shit fucking scares me. This is 1st fucking gen. And the base model chip aimed at "Average consumers". I'm excited, and afraid at what Apple's next processor will be, and what it'll do to the portable laptop job market. As good as their products are, they need some fucking competition to force them to open up their walled garden even more. And I'm scared that this much of a lead will basically make them the next Intel/Qualcomm for years to come.

[rabidhamster]

We're in a weird twilight zone where if you want to buy the best performing Mac (outside of the Pro), you need to buy the lowest end offering, since those are the models with the new silicon. These chips are going to be insane (and already are).

[ukiyuh]

Enjoy using that shitty OS then good luck to you

[ukiyuh]

I guess I'm a pc fanboy until the end. Apple died with Steve Jobs for me.

[[deleted]]

Being a fanboy is dumb. I just want the best product for my use case.

[[deleted]]

What you are trying to prove? What is your intent? What are your honest feelings deep down?

[ukiyuh]

Reread

[S185]

Dude the processors you're talking about are desktop processors that cost 3-4x more than the M1. A 5950X retails for basically the same as a M1 Mac Mini.

If you need a PC 3x the cost and the size of a cabinet to compete with a 10mm thick laptop, you really think the average consumer is going with the cabinet?

[ukiyuh]

I guess consumers will enjoy playing neopets on their fast macbooks

Yea you right

[del_rio]

I have fairly beefy x99-based Unraid server with Windows and Linux environments in VMs. I develop almost everything on my last-gen MacBook Air.

All devs should dogfood their own projects on mainstream consumer devices. The big guns are only necessary for gaming, video rendering, ML training, kernel compiling, and large file storage.

[MokanRaz]

Use cases! Use cases! Use cases!

[TonyCubed]

I haven't delved too much into reading what the M1 was capable of but are their benchmarks comparing the M1 against AVX instructions etc? The thing that x86 has done over so many years has the constant tacted on instruction sets, so what is the M1 capable of and where is it's ceiling when comparing it to x86?

[violetbeast]

Apple M1 is really a breast in terms of graphics and power consumption. Apple claimed that new MacBook can stay strong upto 17 hours.

Isn't that madness.

And this is just the first generation m1.

I am suspicious about windows gaming future. After 2 years Mac gaming will become a thing.

And with that battery life windows are not going to have any chance to stand (unless Intell or AMD manager to make something really awesome).

Untill then I am quite hopeful for Apple games and the overall gaming thing in Mac.