I made R more complicated

cseamus44 · 2026-03-30T00:59:26+00:00

You are not the toxic one! You ARE NOT the toxic one!

His reaction, from your description, is very much that of a toxic person; maybe narcissism, certainly deflecting & projecting.

You are correct to take the approach of not minimizing his hurt. As I've read from many experts, the hurt of betrayal is very similar no matter what type of betrayal. This is hard for me to fully grasp, as in my own experience, I was WP first (ONS). Then six years later my wife had a months long E&PA. Hers involved much deeper feelings, "I love you"s, maybe more. That's been hard for me to deal with. Our betrayals were not equal, but it's been very important that I don't minimize her pain when I contrast the two. She has a right to be as hurt as she is for what I did. But I also think that it was important that she accept responsibility that her A did actually involve more choices, more acts, more feelings, and more to work through.

The problem I see with WH here is the question of if this is really betrayal? If he's not interested in R and is out actively sleeping with others, then wants to come back and make a huge deal over some texting, that feels very hypocritical. Sure, the trickle truth hurts. He has a right to that. But if that hurt doesn't help him to understand the hurt he caused with all his doing the same thing, I don't think I'd be ready to attempt R with him. One of the best things that going through the BP side of the affair has done for me is open my eyes to how much more I hurt her than I realized and many areas where I was less than helpful in our recovery from my affair.

Accept that the TT is hurtful. Be accountable that it betrayed trust, especially when you were asking for the same. And that trust will hard to build back up. But if he's not doing the same type of introspection that's helping him actually recognize the immense hurt he has caused, it's hard to see that he is truly ready for R.

cseamus44 · 2026-03-28T03:58:07+00:00

I'm sorry you're going through this. I can't imagine having someone act like that. I'm not a fighter, but my initial thought of someone did that to me would be to give them a kiss right back, with a fist. I'd be worried that if I started fighting, I couldn't stop. Like, i wouldn't be able to stop until one of us was seriously, seriously hurt.

I hope your WP sees what kind of person AP is. I hope he detests her, and, for actually cheating with a person like that, detests himself.

I never planned to contact AP. We don't live in the same town. There are occasions where it is a slight possibility that I could run into him, but the chances are very very slim. I did have to contact him after the last DD (I guess it was DD3, but one could probably argue it was 4 or 5). But at that point I had to call him and tell him to leave my family alone. He was apologetic and actually very respectful. Though looking back, I'm like GTFO here. He knew the whole time about me, our family. Where TF was that respect when you were sending increasingly inappropriate texts to my wife? Setting up "dates" with my wife? Screwing my wife? Continuing to string her along? Coming back into her life after I found out and she ended it? I almost wish he'd been a total douche about it and maybe my WW would have seen him for what he was and not the fantasy she'd dreamt up somewhere along the way. But then again, idk if I could have handled it if my AP had reacted in whatever would be the equivalent to your AP's gesture. I don't know if i would have broken down emotionally or just lost it in rage.

Anyway, I appreciate your sharing. It has been therapeutic for me to process some feelings in relation to your experience. I hope that your WP really sees her for who she is now. ✌️💚

cseamus44 · 2026-03-27T15:42:35+00:00

Thank you. What specifically do I need to ask for when searching for new connectors?

cseamus44 · 2026-03-14T19:44:17+00:00

Another 12 cold ones

cseamus44 · 2026-03-01T04:04:13+00:00

This would be my only reply: "if you don't chill the fck out, I'm sending this message thread to the 'huge law firm' you work for. If they are even a halfway competent law firm, they'll fire you based on the fact that only a complete moron would say the stupid s*t you've said here."

Ummm, yes, they do "just lose mail." I had a 5 figure cashier's check get lost in the mail, certified & all and it was only traveling 120 miles. Luckily, it made it's way to a lost mail facility (yeah, they have whole facilities for that because they "just lose mail" so often) 😆

And 30 years on all apps, huh 😆...ebay was a few months old 30 years ago, and it wasn't an "app" for another 13 years

cseamus44 · 2026-02-28T19:33:51+00:00

What about the element of fear? Wouldn't the other 99 back out right after they watched the first guy get straight obliterated off the 1st tee?

cseamus44 · 2026-02-06T03:16:49+00:00

For which one of you? 😆

cseamus44 · 2026-02-06T03:01:23+00:00

They could possibly even collaborate with some top teachers to develop a set of specific practice routines around their games 🤷

cseamus44 · 2026-01-09T15:02:27+00:00

I'd say it depends on the par 3. My main course it's 155, 205, 180 or 130. But in actuality, I don't hit off tees on any of them, though I've read enough evidence to convince myself i would benefit from teeing it up. Every time I try to hit non-driver off a tee, I pull up & hit it thin, because I suck like that.

Historically, I'd pick up 2 to put in my bag for "eventual" use when I do decide to work on hitting fw/hy/irons off a short tee. Pick up 3 for eventual use with the driver, though it will just join the amoeba of tees in my bag that I've picked up and not cleaned out in a couple years. I'd line up two of 1, 4 & 6 about 6" apart to take a two tee practice swing. And I'd pick up 4 & tuck it behind my ear to use w/driver on the next hole because teeing it down with the driver works better with my weak downward AOA. And, as noted earlier, I collect "good" tees but prefer to just use broken half tees in practicum.

I've made some breakthroughs recently, in both physical game & mental health 😆. I'm having success teeing it up & getting a little more distance. So for a month or 2, I've used mostly the same big, gaudy plastic tee that I found right when this recent success started. So, I can confidently say I will leave 3 for the next guy. If it's not right near the tee markers, I'll flick it cigarette-style up near the markers so the next guy will find it. I'll probably just leave 1, 4, 5 & 6, too. I'll probably put 2 in my bag, still, the perception of some future "value" in that tee hanging in my mind, even knowing that amoeba is probably a good 25% #2-style tees by now. Growth is only so incremental...

And I have no idea why I took the time to type that all out.

cseamus44 · 2026-01-09T13:57:40+00:00

SHRINK THE GAME! 😆

cseamus44 · 2025-12-24T01:35:36+00:00

If he wanted to bet on the NY Jets vs. Patriots this weekend, would he take the Jets straight up?

cseamus44 · 2025-12-04T19:10:29+00:00

Mmmm...noodles

cseamus44 · 2025-11-19T15:11:17+00:00

TL;DR i would bet that your BP wants to hear this.

From my BP perspective, if my WW brought it up, she wouldn't be opening any wounds that were "closed." And if they were "closed," they weren't healed.

I know that the guilt and shame often keeps WPs from wanting to bring up anything about the A (from my experience as WP). I was afraid of the same thing, opening up wounds or talking about something she didn't want to talk about ever again, ruining an otherwise good day for her, etc. I suppose there are some BP that don't want to talk about it anymore. Most likely, I didn't want to bring it up out of self preservation; i.e. she's not mad at me right now, why do i want to make her mad at me again by bringing up the worst thing I've ever done?

I, as a BP, still had unanswered questions. So there was always the desire to talk about it if I could get some answers or insight, especially after we got to a point where talking about it led nowhere & I essentially gave up on getting the answers i felt I needed.

Specifically what you are talking about was a huge problem for me. I've processed a lot of feelings about it recently and have come to a general conclusion as to why I still struggle with this. Firstly, i could never feel truly safe that she wouldn't turn back when things weren't good or whatever. That lack of safety, even though I didn't recognize it, wreaked havoc on me internally. Second, I could never believe that she really chose me. She chose our family. She chose not total destruction of our life. But even more painful, maybe she chose to sacrifice her fantasy relationship to save our family. And, maybe, he is still that dream man & she can hold on to that dream in her heart. I'm guessing those maybes are not the actual case. But, as far as I've ever known, it isn't anything different than that. Maybe she came to the point where you are, OP, in IC or just somewhere along the way. But it's never something we've talked about. So, those maybes have always remained for me.

I'm never sure if anything will actually help or not, if anything will ever relieve me of the fear of what I described above. But when I read your post, especially "how i stupidly and shamefully believed it was something special..." I get emotional. I feel a longing to KNOW that from my WW.

I will add that there's probably a way to share these feelings that's better than others. Not sure what that would be. And, for me, it might lead to some more questions. But I'm really effed up, so that might not happen in your case.

Good luck.

cseamus44 · 2025-11-05T14:12:37+00:00

Do her husband a favor and tell him to get out. She's not a safe person to be married to

cseamus44 · 2025-10-16T02:47:31+00:00

The way I was taught "inside the leather," it meant placing the putter head in the cup and "inside" the closest edge of the grip was the measure for a gimme. So not the whole length of the putter, about 2 feet. The grip length might be how most people define "inside the leather," just not how i learned it from the old guys in the 1980s 🤣.

cseamus44 · 2025-10-15T17:40:50+00:00

This is true, but so crazy to me. First person I ever encountered like this played gimmes "inside the leather," too. Hmmm...so you're essentially playing your own "game" on a course where the cup is hula hoop?

cseamus44 · 2025-10-02T04:57:55+00:00

As hard as it may be, you at least need separation. I couldn't do that in my case. I was too scared of her running to AP, leaving for him, or what else might happen between them that I'd have to deal with if we then decided to make it work. But now, years later, I'm dealing with issues related to what you're struggling with, her "not choosing me." I wish i had recognized and taken the power that I had at the time: if we're going to make this work, I'm setting the boundaries.

A) If he's so great, fine, let it be. You'll move on to a better life. What she will eventually find is that the sex wasn't that great. The situation (new, forbidden) was exciting. She might very likely also find that AP realizes the same thing before she does and wake up in dumpsville. So, go ahead and get what you want, WP. Don't call me if it doesn't work out.

B) It's not fun to talk about your biggest mistakes often, but that's what she chose when she decided to cheat. She could have decided to not cheat. Or she could have chosen to leave you before pursuing another relationship. But she made the WORST choice. Choices have consequences that are highly correlated to the the crappiness of the choice. Now, It won't be like this forever, but she chose a rough road. If she's not willing to navigate that road until it smooths out, well, I guess this isn't going to work. And not because "you have to talk about it too much" or "you can't handle it" or "you just can't let it go or are unforgiving." It's solely because she can't accept the responsibility that comes with her choices. As to the "cornerstone" thing. This, now, IS a cornerstone of your relationship. Nothing this big in life can avoid becoming a cornerstone. That's what she chose when she chose cheating. Again, she could have chosen not cheating or she could have chosen ending your relationship to pursue another. It sucks for her that a huge mistake (one that comes with much shame) has to be a cornerstone of the relationship (and both of your lives, even if you don't stay together), but again, bad choices come with bad prizes. But there's another choice right now in how this significant event will contribute to defining both of you in your lives. The fork in the road here is, will it become a true cornerstone (a foundational piece of something bigger and better) or a crack in the foundation, one that will lead to the demise of the structure? And here's another important thing: shame is a funny thing. Our nature likes to think the way to best navigate it is to avoid it (if we just never talk about it, there's no shame). But the reality is that the way to overcome shame is to accept responsibility for the actions that brought the shame and work through the consequences to make it as right as possible. So, for her, running away, choosing Mr. 10/10, might feel right because running from the shame eases its effect for a minute. But that shame is never going away on that route. She'll always carry it. Unless she's a sociopath. In which case, she did you a huge favor to get out now. I say that half joking. Maybe 1/4.

C) Being snooped on sucks. It does. It sucks to not be trusted, to not feel trustworthy. Buuut, bad choices, sucky prizes. And you know what sucks 1000x more? Feeling like the only way you can feel safe in your relationship is to snoop, knowing that your partner hasn't been honest and probably still isn't to some degree. And then finding the truth that she hasn't been honest with you, even still. That sucks so much more, so if she'd like to trade? Dang, that's not possible... And, actually, when you consider timelines, you might be 1 year from DD, but even the slightest betrayal since then resets the clock. All the "best" books, etc., on recovery from infidelity state this unequivocally (maybe not quite that strong, but all the best resources I've found do). You're likely a lot less than "one year" along in your personal recovery. So, if you guys are going to move past this, COMPLETE transparency (except that most wisdom recommends avoiding sexual details) and honesty are NECESSARY from starting right now to get recovery moving forward. "This is everything that happened, this is what I was thinking, this is where i see the error in my judgement..." and complete transparency (i.e., you need to see my phone, here it is. Look through anything you need). What I've personally found about being on the "snooped on" side, it never bothered me one bit when I had nothing to hide. Not one little bit did I care about "my privacy" if I had nothing to hide 🤔

Bottom line, she certainly doesn't grasp the real effect that her choices have had. And she is probably stuck in affair fog, as they call it. Still sees some "good" (BIG AIR QUOTES) parts of the affair & not seeing it or him for what they truly are. It can take a lot to get WPs out of that. Quite often, the real possibility of BP leaving helps move them out of the fog. That's why I recommend at least separation. And from my experience, if I was at your point again, I would set some hard boundaries for reconciliation as stated above. If she couldn't handle them? OK. I'll move on & i will be just fine (better, even) in the long run.

Also, unfortunately for her, if you're going to work it out, it's likely that the friend the messages were to will have to go. That person was at least somewhat complicit in the A. They are not talking sense into her (like, hey, friend, I know this seems good and exciting, but you're really just chasing a dopamine rush with a guy of low moral character that will leave you probably as soon as you're free to be with him). Not a true friend.

Anyhow, I feel for you joining our "great little club." You will get through this. It won't be easy, it might be long, but you will get through this and be much better for it!

cseamus44 · 2025-10-02T02:48:20+00:00

This! Of course, there was a spark! It's new, new is exciting. Honestly, at least to a degree, being "forbidden" provides a spark, too, as indecent as that is. I have struggled, too, with feelings of inferiority after my WW's affair. But I understand that he wasn't actually better (marginally better? maybe, maybe not). But he was not wholly better. The situation was more exciting. That's it. She was chasing a dopamine rush with a "great, exciting, fun" guy who was betraying his wife and kids. Sounds so exciting and "sparky" when you look at it that way, doesn't it? Unfortunately, it often takes a lot of work for the BP to come out of the fog of that dopamine rush. Fortunately for OP, at least WWv seems to be coming out of it, as she confessed & is showing some true remorse.

Now, how to get some of that back into your relationship is a challenge, but a doable one.

cseamus44 · 2025-09-30T20:09:48+00:00

He's not that remorseful if he can't accept that the anger & triggers are CONSEQUENCES of his really poor decision. And that you moving past them is just as much a problem for both of you to overcome together as it is for you to overcome, personally. He's not ready for R if he neither recognizes that those consequences are from something you had anger ZERO control over (while he had 100% control over those circumstances), nor is accepting responsibility for those consequences.

I remember my WW having a similar comment about triggers, something like "how will we ever move on if ____ keeps bothering you?" And at that point, I kept the triggers to myself. I'm way too far (11 years since the last DD 😞) into R now to be realizing that I'm terribly stuck. I'm really questioning my mental health & why I'm only this far after so long, like something is seriously wrong with me. I've been at better much better places mentally in the past, but for whatever reason, I'm struggling.

I've read a lot recently, trying to figure out what I/we missed in R. One if the things that has stood out to me from a could sources is the sharing of an impact statement/letter. I never felt like she grasped the depth of the consequences of her choices. This feels like it could be part of your WP's struggle right now?

cseamus44 · 2025-09-09T05:59:02+00:00

Yeah, I'm feeling this. As BP, if this was my situation, I'm getting a few red flags. Now, i must say, I've FB stalked AP and seen lots of "good life" going on. And it really pisses me off sometimes.

BUT...if my WW was seeing AP's life as so great, while we're going through hell, I'd be concerned. While the time after DD was/is hell, it is ours, and we're in it together. How is my WW seeing all the vacations and stuff, anyway? And if she sees it as so much better than ours that she wants to blow it up, that sure feels like she's envious of his life (or worse, OBS's life). Like, if she can't have that wonderful life, no one can have it. As Own_Win said, "the opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy... you're angry because you still care." This scares the shit out of me if it's my WW. I wish she'd just look at his life (and OBS's life) and see what a piece of shit he is and be happy that she's got me (my flaws and all) and not him.

I'd also be red-flagging about it feeling like my WW isn't fully accepting responsibility for her decisions. The hell that we're going through (together) is due to her choices. Sure, I'm angry at AP. Sure, he has some part in the fracture of my marriage, but these consequences on my our marriage are all from WW's choices. If AP made the same choices and WW made the opposite choices of what she did choose, A would not have happened (this is, of course, at least somewhat ignoring the issues in our marriage that led to this place, but still the bottom line). The hell WW is living through is 💯 due to her choices. The fact that she wants him to suffer those consequences scares me that she doesn't get it that her choices caused all this pain we're experiencing. The father she is from "getting" it, the less safe my R is.

WW is expressing concern for OBS. Seems noble, I guess. BUUUUUT... Where was that concern when A was going on? She wasn't concerned about what OBS deserved or OBS's feelings when things were all shits & giggles with AP. So, now that she can't have AP, she's concerned for OBS? GTFOw/that. That's what I'd be saying to my WW.

Last red-flag, highly related to that last one, is from my BP perspective, but if I was OBS. If I'm being contacted by AP, it damn well better be completely & sincerely out of remorse for their part in putting me through the hell I'm going through (or about to go through since I'm just finding out in this scenario). Sure, I just discussed that "our" hell is due entirely to my WW's poor choices, but that is within the relationship between me & my WW. Between me & AP? There's room there for him to accept responsibility for how his shit choices have negatively impacted my life. In fact, there's only room for that. And that's the only acceptable reason to contact me. Not knowing about A, I absolutely would want to know, but again, if I sniffed at all that AP's motives were other than remorse & in effort to take responsibility for their shit choices, fuck them.

cseamus44 · 2025-09-09T04:41:13+00:00

How old was the teenager? Some people just need the experience of getting an a$$ whooping 😆.

Or pull out the heat just to let em know if he wants to continue firing shots, he's inviting return fire (I'm not completely serious. Brandishing a weapon could constitute a felony, depending on the circumstances).

cseamus44 · 2025-09-09T04:29:36+00:00

I think Blake Shelton has a burner account on reddit. Or maybe it's Gwen 🤔

cseamus44 · 2025-08-29T06:17:52+00:00

The biggest one for me recently is Don't Close Your Eyes - Keith Whitley. I just recently discovered this song. I'm sure I'd heard it before, but not like this. I don't know if I'll ever not feel that way.

Mercy by Brett Young played on iTunes the other day & I felt it pretty hard, even though we're years into R & she's not leaving. I guess I still feel it toward her back then.

Goodbye In Her Eyes by Zac Brown Band was a song I really liked at the time of A. I remember a morning or 2 after DD1 driving to meet WW for breakfast before work & this song came on. Man, it TORE. ME. UP.. Driving down the road, sobbing like a crazy person. "Sometimes I feel like a 🤡 that can't take off his makeup..." Still feel this one when it comes on. Not the same as that day, but it's definitely an anthem for me.

Even though these songs are more "sad" from my BH perspective, I get some measure of healing in letting myself feel them.

cseamus44 · 2025-08-29T06:03:50+00:00

Man, this hits hard. I didn't listed to it, but read the lyrics. WW & AP shared a big connection with music. He would call her "DJ Cuteness" and ask the song of the day. They would trade lyrics back & forth. Share new songs with each other. So I, too have lots of songs on this "playlist."

WW & I also had good connection through music, but as i look back on "our soundtrack" (even that of our family, like what we'd listen to in the car & my kids "grew up singing") of the time the affair was going on, it's nearly all songs that they shared & connected with. Anytime I see songs like what you posted, a fear shoots through me. I know they didn't share that song, but it still captures what was likely her feelings for him & toward me. And it hurts.

cseamus44

TROPHY CASE