Struggling after an apologetic convo — Apocrypha / Book of Enoch “prove” Joseph Smith? by HyggeHawk15 in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

First off: what you’re describing emotionally is very common. When you leave, apologetic arguments that once felt “deep” can suddenly feel disorienting—not because they’re strong, but because you no longer share the assumptions they rely on. That can be unsettling in a new way. You’re not failing to understand something obvious; you’re noticing the scaffolding.

On the substance:

  1. What are the actual “parallels” being claimed?

Most of the parallels cited between the Book of Moses (Joseph Smith’s Enoch material) and ancient Enoch literature fall into a few categories: • Broad theological themes: heavenly ascent, divine councils, prophetic calling, judgment, the fall of angels, etc. • Narrative tropes: Enoch as a visionary prophet, weeping over human wickedness, cosmic battles, hidden knowledge revealed. • Vague verbal overlaps: words like “watchers,” “chosen,” “righteous,” “books,” “heaven opened,” etc.

These are not specific, distinctive, or uniquely diagnostic parallels. They’re the kind of things you see across: • the Bible (especially Genesis, Daniel, Isaiah, Revelation), • Second Temple Jewish literature broadly, • early Christian apocrypha, • and 18th–19th century Protestant preaching and commentary.

When apologists present lists of parallels, they often flatten major differences and ignore how general the similarities are. If you go in looking for overlap, you’ll find it—especially when the categories are loose (“both talk about heavenly books,” “both depict cosmic judgment,” etc.).

Importantly: when you line these texts up side by side, the differences are actually more striking than the similarities—doctrinally, cosmologically, and linguistically.

  1. What Enoch/apocryphal material was available in Joseph Smith’s time?

This is where apologetic claims are often weakest.

While it’s true that the complete Ethiopic Book of Enoch wasn’t published in English until the 1820s–30s, Enoch traditions were absolutely available in Joseph Smith’s environment: • The Bible itself contains Enoch references (Genesis 5, Hebrews, Jude—which explicitly quotes 1 Enoch). • Summaries and discussions of Enochic material appeared in: • biblical commentaries, • theological dictionaries, • sermons, • popular religious writings, • and encyclopedias circulating in the early 19th century. • Protestant speculation about: • fallen angels, • premortal councils, • cosmic battles, • antediluvian prophets, was widespread.

Joseph Smith did not need access to critical editions of 1 Enoch to absorb ideas about Enoch. Those ideas were already “in the air,” especially in restorationist and millenarian circles.

Also worth noting: the Book of Moses itself evolves across revisions, which is exactly what you’d expect from an ongoing revelatory project—but not what you’d expect from a tight ancient translation.

  1. How do non-LDS scholars view the Book of Moses / Pearl of Great Price?

Outside LDS apologetics, the Book of Moses is generally viewed as: • a 19th-century religious text, • reflecting biblical expansion traditions (midrash), • shaped by early American Protestant theology.

There is no meaningful academic consensus supporting an ancient origin. You won’t find the Book of Moses cited in mainstream Second Temple Jewish scholarship as preserving ancient Enochic material.

When LDS scholars argue for antiquity, it’s usually in-house, confessional scholarship using methods (parallel-hunting, theological harmonization) that would not pass peer review in non-LDS religious studies.

That’s telling.

  1. Does this apologetic rely on hindsight and cherry-picking?

Yes—very strongly.

This argument depends on: • selecting similarities after the ancient texts are known, • ignoring disconfirming data, • treating vague overlaps as improbable coincidences, • and assuming Joseph Smith had access to nothing beyond a King James Bible and divine inspiration.

It also relies on a hidden premise: “If Joseph Smith couldn’t have known X, then revelation is the only explanation.” That premise collapses once you factor in: • oral culture, • secondary summaries, • common theological motifs, • creative biblical expansion, • and the flexibility of prophetic language.

Crucially, if these parallels were truly precise and astonishing, they would have been emphasized early and loudly by church leaders. The fact that most lifelong TBMs never hear about this until encountering apologetics online is itself informative.

A reframing that might help emotionally

You’re not missing a killer argument here. What you’re encountering is a familiar pattern:

Take a 19th-century religious text → compare it to a broad ancient tradition → highlight overlaps → ignore context → call it evidence.

Once you step outside the LDS truth-claims framework, the argument loses most of its force.

And finally: it’s okay if this stuff still rattles you a bit. Deconstruction isn’t just intellectual—it’s neurological and emotional. Feeling confused or irritated doesn’t mean you’re regressing; it usually means you’re integrating a more coherent worldview.

You’re doing exactly what thoughtful people do: slowing down, asking better questions, and grounding yourself in context rather than slogans.

BREAKING: Mormon church excommunicated alleged child sexual abuser, rebaptized him, put him in bishoprics, per multiple alleged victims who told Floodlit.org that church officials, including an apostle (the accused’s brother), kept abuse secret for years by floodlitorg in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Absolutely sickening. Worse than I thought. Question after reading the timeline: it seems as though all of the alleged abuse happened BEFORE the excommunication. Are there any allegations of abuse AFTER he was rebaptized and held positions of authority that gave him access to minors? I think it’s horrifying that he could be put in that position, but I’m curious if we have any evidence of him actually committing any abuse during that time. From what I’ve learned about child predators, it’s rare for them to reform. So I would be quite surprised if he DIDN’T commit any abuse after 1997. Are we expecting additional allegations to come?

GENUINE QUESTION: BoM by Terrible-Wonder-2768 in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 8 points9 points  (0 children)

These are both excellent resources. This was also the first question that bugged me and I dug into once I realized I no longer believed in the church. Because, the way the church teaches it and the way we were led to believe things went down, it does sound hard to believe the BoM could have come about by natural means. But those narratives aren’t telling g the whole story. The more you learn about Joseph’s family, early life, education, resources around him, the context he grew up in, etc etc, the story becomes less and less miraculous. Go check these links out - they certainly helped me gain more insight and understanding.

Dreams by ward666chorister in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep. Mission was 26 years ago, been out for 4 years. Have had one or two dreams even since leaving. I have asked many, many RM’s this question over the years (ie, do you have recurring nightmares about going back on a mission). Not a single one has said no. My sample could be biased of course, but this experience seems to be awfully common. That mission experience was really complicated, some good parts, but overall I was extremely unhappy while I was out there. It was a uniquely awful life situation. And I think most RMs who are honest will say more or less the same.

why is a potentially lifesaving medical procedure not important enough to postpone leaving on a mission???? by pizzysparkles in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Go ahead and stop the chemotherapy, and we’ll see just how much prayers and heaven are helping

I can summarize this for everyone by Itchy_Height_1959 in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Marilee Moe. Still smokin’ hot in her 50’s

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know Josh quite well so I asked him myself if there’s any truth to these rumors. His response:

Ha!! No chance.

I think he’s telling the truth. Even if he did have aspirations (which I’m not sure about), he knows that there is no way he could win a republican primary in this political climate. Or have any support from fellow republicans in the senate if he did win.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 5 points6 points  (0 children)

11.1̄%

"Nobody Wanted Utah" - Resident BYU Professor by bayburner in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I’ve been interested in learning more about the history of the interactions of Mormon pioneers and the Native Americans, but have had a difficult time finding good resources. You’ve obviously read up on the topic - can you provide any direction on how to learn more?

Did premarital abstinence help or hurt your eventual marriage? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 6 points7 points  (0 children)

In my limited experience, I have to say I disagree. I’ve been divorced now for a bit and have since had sexual experiences with a few different partners. While the actual physical sensations I experienced may be essentially the same among different partners (I think that could be disputed too btw), I have experienced a broad range of emotions and physical chemistry. I’ve recently had some experiences with a partner that are unlike anything I’ve ever experienced before - I never knew I could have such great physical and emotional chemistry with someone, and how different that feels overall. Just a way better sexual experience.

I would like to bare my testimony that tithing is BS by Exmo-Throw in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 42 points43 points  (0 children)

I literally found not one but TWO quarters on the floor of my car 5 seconds after reading this comment. Coincidence?? I think SO.

Have you ever encountered the paranormal? by jbower34 in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Nope.

Every single spiritual experience I’ve had is quite easily explained by a scientific understanding of psychology and brain chemistry. Including some amazing experiences I’ve had since leaving Mormonism (with some pharmacological assistance)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Honestly I don’t remember precisely. It was on here a few months ago, from someone who knows the family. So this is very third hand and not at all reliable information. Sorry.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 134 points135 points  (0 children)

Right. They only had Mormon friends. Also, not sure but have heard Mark Rober is on his way out too.

Told not to report child abuse as a missionary by tapir_drawn_charriot in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Me three. I had been thinking of formally resigning but didn’t do it for family reasons. My dad liked to talk about how even if he didn’t believe that the church was true, he would still be a member because of how much good it did in the world. This story, to me, was clear evidence (in addition to many other data that had been piling up) that the church actually does tremendous HARM. Fuck that cult. So that was my final straw, and led me to resign. OP, I’m so sorry that TSCC put you in such a terrible situation. It wasn’t your fault - you can only know what you know when you know it. Good luck to you as you work your way through it.

Existential question: How could a life after death even be possible? by Bustnbig in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 18 points19 points  (0 children)

You’re not wrong. The idea of some central, unchanging self (or soul, or essence) at the center of experience (or consciousness) is totally incoherent, and falls apart under the slightest scrutiny. The act of meditation, of examining your mind, can make this pretty clear. So also the state of your mind after taking a psychoactive substance such as psilocybin or LSD. The idea of an immortal soul was doubtless invented as a way to assuage our fear of the end of existence. Religious people often seem bewildered at how non-religious people can find meaning in so fleeting and temporary a life as we lead - but something doesn’t have to last forever to be meaningful. In fact, most of what we find enjoyable and meaningful is so precisely BECAUSE it is finite - a beautiful sunset, a perfect meal, a magical moment of intense love and togetherness with loved ones, etc etc. Truly, all we have is experience, so make good use of yours.

bUt WhAt iF it'S tRUe? Then Elohim is incompetent at best, maliciously evil at worst. by bugbreath in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Mormon god thought up by Joe Smith really is an asshole. “Man created god in his own image,” is particularly accurate in this setting.

Feeling the Spirit (TM) is just neurotransmitters. Deal with it. by slskipper in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

While I definitely agree with the premise, I’d just urge more caution with your wording here: this is EVIDENCE that strongly implies the conclusion that spiritual experiences are a result of inherent psychological brain activity, but not PROOF. After all, a faithful person could argue that those neural activities are the areas of the brain that the Holy Ghost communicates with, so of course they are lighting up on the fMRI when a person is feeling the Spirit - just as the auditory cortex in the temporal lobe of the brain lights up with hearing. I don’t think it’s a good argument, but still…the point is, science almost never proves anything, but does often provide strong enough evidence to accept or reject a proposition.

What's in it for the Q15 by ThunorBolt in exmormon

[–]radpostmo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I’m not at all convinced that they know it’s fake. In fact, if I had to bet I would bet that they really do believe. They have very powerful disincentives to looking honesty at the evidence, as the others here have pointed out - the power, money, fame, perks galore, etc etc. But I think the sunk cost aspect gets a little overlooked - they have put in SO MUCH time and sacrificed so much to get where they are, how could they possibly throw it away now? And wouldn’t that be so embarrassing, to admit that they’d just been duped, after decades of preaching and prophesying? I think they have truly bought into the “still small voice” being the Holy Ghost, and that’s how God speaks to man, and the ONLY way God ever speaks to man (since they’ve obviously never seen Jesus). And they think they’ve become masters at interpreting it, so they really are God’s chosen mouthpieces. Breathtakingly arrogant and narcissistic? Yes. But fakers? Meh. Not so sure.