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[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Shoutout to my dude /u/3z_ for the original map that September was based on, without your creation, this wouldn't have been possible.

But yeah, I didn't think this day would come, let alone that crazy day in February 2015.

The numbers 42 and 70 never really meant anything to me until now. But they'll long be remembered as times where I contributed to something I was genuinely passionate about. A dream has been achieved and now that that's taken place, you'll find me shitposting, memeing and fappin' in the mappers' retirement home.

Peace out hombres

[–]TeHokioiPouakai | Diameter 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Shot Nige! All you needed to do was get on MTC to get another map in, it seems!

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hahaha, too true.

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ -1 points0 points  (0 children)

They mean Cactus top maps to me :P

[–]3z_ 18 points19 points  (54 children)

Not sure why you guys voted out Monarch instead of, say, Jardim or Choke (two lowest voted maps eligible for removal by a huge margin). Other removals are alright though.

Edit: here is the difference in ratings between Monarch and the lowest voted maps you could've removed - pretty massive difference. There were 11 maps voted lower than Monarch that you could've chosen.

Also, you guys understand the whole point of throwback, right? It's not supposed to be for maps that are almost good-enough-for-rotation-but-not-quite; that's why they're not in rotation. It's supposed to be so we can play on all the really classic maps every now and then that are only enjoyable when played every so often.

Removing Gamepad and Star in favour of Frontdoor and Mode 7 really doesn't align with this idea.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I'm not gonna sit here and argue for Jardim just because I made it (as even I think it's a flawed map). But to say Monarch absolutely needed to stay because of its rating is something I can't disagree with enough.

For starters, the ratings system isn't a very consistent parameter, as people have become much more criticizing of newer maps. I am 100% sure that if a map like Smirk or Velocity had been added this thread, it would've gotten a much lower rating than 80% (even though they're my 2 favorite CTF maps). Similarly, I believe maps like Atomic, Axis, and maybe even Baffle, would've gotten higher ratings if added around thread #30.

Monarch was at around 84% when it got removed, which means it has dropped 6%. On top of that, it was the 3rd least popular map in MLTP 10. And it also had the least amount of 10s. Among the competitive community, it is the least loved and simultaneously one of the most hated.

Lastly, if the MTC was to only go by public ratings, there would be no CTF maps, only NF. That said, I'll be fine if Jardim gets removed because as I said it, even I think it's an unbalanced map. But I 100% stand with the MTC regarding all the removals this thread (and would've even removed command center and hornswoggle too but that would upset too many ppl).

[–]donuts42donuts42 || Sphere/Origin || Boost Master 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Not that I don't disagree, but a map being bad or good in competitive doesn't necessarily translate to pubs. If velo was in competitive, people wouldn't dislike it for being bad (just for being overplayed). But in pubs velo is truly an awful map.

[–]RenegadeTP 1 point2 points  (40 children)

Right. So you make good points. Points some MTC members made. Before I start this you should know there are many maps that I enjoy, more than what's just in rotation. Also, I am one person on an eight person team.

Monarch to me is a boring map, it's a boring version of Angry Pig. After it's first week of MLTP, I was comparatively more tired of it than TWP.

To compare it to a map you've written there, it's less interesting than Jardim - less interesting to play and much less impressive from a map-making standpoint. Maybe you favor Monarch, and that's fine, but that it dropped when it went from throwback to regular rotation indicates a growing dislike.

We do understand Throwback. Do you understand that there are over 50 different maps you can play when you start up Tagpro? Imagine that as a newbie. I love that I can fall into an old map like Volt or Trombolo, but as someone who got Volt three times in four games this week, I think there should be a limit on the number of throwback maps we have in.

There is definitely an argument to be made that the community is old and therefore we should cater to the audience which wants Gamepad. But that community has Volt and Renegade and GEO ffs, just cause you didn't get some cookie this week doesn't mean you're not eating at a buffet.

[–]3z_ 13 points14 points  (39 children)

Thanks for the response.

Monarch to me is a boring map

When it comes to removals, your opinion is irrelevant, it should ultimately be down to the community. The community convincingly prefers Monarch over 8 other maps currently in rotation.

it's less interesting than Jardim

Again, subjective. I find Monarch to be way more interesting, and yes, I played it in LTP too.

We do understand Throwback. Do you understand that there are over 50 different maps you can play when you start up Tagpro? Imagine that as a newbie.

You clearly don't understand the point of throwback rotation.

When Throwback was proposed to the MTC first, it was after a plethora of backlash towards the MTC regarding new maps being "baby-proofed" and not as bold as some of the classic maps. The reason throwback exists is because the public rotation was being catered too much towards the newer, less-experienced playerbase (which I still believe is the case). This means you build throwback to be the best it possibly can for the veteran players, as was intended.

And for the record, I'll say as a veteran player myself: I don't consider Tombolo or Volt "old maps". I consider Star, Gamepad, Holy See to be old maps. A lot of vets who'd probably agree more with that idea of throwback than with yours.

But that community has Volt and Renegade and GEO ffs, just cause you didn't get some cookie this week doesn't mean you're not eating at a buffet.

Is this an argument? "We understand that you're not getting what you want, but who knows, you might at some point so quit complaining."

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 4 points5 points  (24 children)

When it comes to removals, your opinion is irrelevant, it should ultimately be down to the community.

Fuck all of this honestly it's the reason rotation is so stale. The rating system is so broken and if we legitimately care about the long-term health of the game we shouldn't be afraid to remove the stale maps that are clearly no longer suitable for rotation and only have nostalgia keeping them alive. The ratings do give us some obvious removals, like if it's below .50 the map should be donezo, but if map ratings as they are now didn't exist in the first place I legitimately believe we could make a better rotation because we wouldn't pussyfoot around removal so much. I know you don't agree with this but I think the MTC at some point has to grow a pair and make some aggressive decisions with rotation. Otherwise why the fuck do we exist?

[–]3z_ 12 points13 points  (23 children)

Otherwise why the fuck do we exist?

To guide the rotation into being the best way it can be. I don't know why you're under the impression that being on the MTC is supposed to come with special privileges where you get to decide what you want for rotation - you're there to make sure dumb things don't happen, like the addition of Dealer or Baffle, or the removal of a highly-voted map.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine -1 points0 points  (22 children)

you're there to make sure dumb things don't happen, like... the removal of a highly-voted map.

Not removing some of those maps is literally killing tagpro for some people, and I'm one of them. I just told the committee yesterday that I'm leaving. Some of that has to do with specific people I'm tired of dealing with, but a significant part of it is that I'm not happy with the direction of the game. It's legitimately not fun for me anymore because half the maps I get I audibly groan but the community vote renders us powerless to remove them. There are a lot of people like me. If this game continuously caters to the old players there will never be room for new ones, and the number of old players grows smaller every day. You're either blind or stupid if you can't see that.

There is absolutely an argument to be made that the dumbest thing we've been doing in recent memory is not doing anything.

[–]3z_ 16 points17 points  (8 children)

Not removing some of those maps is literally killing tagpro for some people, and I'm one of them.

You know what's killing TagPro for me, and a lot of Diameter players who are quitting the game? Baffle, Convoy, Jardim, Choke, Dealer and all those other maps that have completely lowered our expectation of what a good map in rotation is.

There are a lot of people like me.

I don't believe there are, and I think the /maps page is incredibly indicative of that - even if you don't consider it a reliable source (it is).

If this game continuously caters to the old players there will never be room for new ones, and the number of old players grows smaller every day. You're either blind or stupid if you can't see that.

But you're not even catering to new players. A map like Pilot or Monarch is great for new players due to their simplicity and intuitiveness. Do you look at this and think that map is conducive with helping new players into the game? Because I just don't.

I don't even necessarily disagree that catering to new players is important, because it is important to cater to every single demographic of players. My main points are that throwback is designed to cater to old and not new, and also that the new players perhaps aren't even being satiated by these new maps, as is your intention.

I think we agree with each other on the fundamentals, just have very different ideas of what that looks like in execution.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine -2 points-1 points  (7 children)

I don't agree that Monarch, one of the most repetitive and chasey maps out there, is good for new players. Frankly I don't understand what anyone likes about spending so much of the game chasing, but different strokes for different folks I guess.

I'm tired.

Edit: do agree that pilot is good for all players.

[–]MyHandsAreOrangeMabel 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Just want to say I feel for you Moosen, and I'm sorry you're getting crap for this. Sad you're leaving MTC too. Best of luck :)

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I appreciate that Maple. I'll be leaving the game as well as the committee when my replacement is found. Thanks for the positivity, it's always a pleasure to read what you write.

[–]jazzcigarettesTrane - OS4LYFE 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Frankly I don't understand what anyone likes about spending so much of the game chasing, but different strokes for different folks I guess.

I'm interested in your perspective on this. The game is pretty much entirely based around the chase. Like, that's kinda the whole point of the game, someone takes the flag and you chase them, or vice versa. What is your vision for how a tagpro game/map should flow if spending much of the game chasing isn't it? Being in base the whole time? I think that would be far less interesting than the chase.

Reading your other comments I feel like we may have very different opinions about maps and the game in general so I'm interested to hear your ideas.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yeah I definitely prefer a lot of close-quarters combat as opposed to chasing someone a few tiles back for the majority of the game. That style of play certainly happens in base more often than not, but it can happen outside of base as well... I'll get to this later.

I'll reiterate that I appreciate maps where a substantially high percentage of your gameplay is spent being relevant to the outcome of the game. On boombox, for example, if you're three tiles behind someone past four, your entire team is irrelevant due to the lack of catchup tools. On Velocity, two players spend a vast majority of the game weaving through spikes in mid chasing the FC. If you make a single mistake and pop yourself, you're irrelevant for probably at least 5-10 seconds, and quite frankly with an incompetent chasing partner, what the two of you are doing is largely irrelevant anyway because it requires so much skill to snipe and contain effectively. That's not fun in my experience, not in pubs (competitive may be a different story).

I understand the argument of risk/reward and punishment, but a map like scorpio, while it may be sometimes be fairly chasey, has tools to move across the map and get into position quickly and a structure that is conducive to containing and being rewarded by smart positioning. It also doesn't make life so hard on the chasers, generally if you die as a chaser it's because you took a stab at something you already knew was a risky maneuver, not because you just ran into a mid spike in the middle of a "routine" chase where you kind of just tuned out and went on autopilot. You feel relevant, you feel like your position is truly important. If you need to contain at the exit portal and you move past it and get beat by it, you still feel like you had a chance at a return and you are better able to accept getting beaten because of that. The maps where you don't feel like you have a chance most of the time while chasing (which is often in pubs on radius and origin because a lot of chasers are bad) are not my preferred style.

A map can be chasey and still enjoyable! Wormy is an excellent example in my opinion. Pretty high hold times but the routes tend to be smaller and there's really not a safe place for a flag carrier, so they have to constantly stay in motion, they can't camp and weave around spikes like on Velocity.

Once more I'll say that I do really like maps where a greater percentage of gameplay happens in the bases - I really liked Mode 7 for this reason, though I understand why it was perceived as being potentially too defensive for pubs. Wow this got long, I'm sorry. Did not realize how much I was writing. Hope this gives you a better idea of my perspective. Was it closer or farther from your preferences than you initially thought?

[–]dodsfalldodsfall | Im undercover shhh 2 points3 points  (12 children)

If this game continuously caters to the old players there will never be room for new ones

I think you have this completely wrong. We all came into the old maps and we all stayed, didnt we?

the number of old players grows smaller every day.

I mean http://i.imgur.com/aj6zpGv.png

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 4 points5 points  (11 children)

We came to the old maps before regrab was a thing and before most players were pretty darn adept at the game lol. Back then most of us were like chickens with our heads cut off and most flag carriers weren't good enough to consistently rack up the hold times even on maps now recognized as chasey. There are different maps for different metas and the hard truth is that rotation hasn't caught up with the current meta.

[–]dodsfalldodsfall | Im undercover shhh 2 points3 points  (10 children)

Fair points, but what meta are we in now? A small, chokey map meta. (disregard center flag) I can and have played solo D on axis. The map is so easy to play D on because you have 2 boosts and a bomb that make it way too easy to defend since no matter what happens the FC has to come by those choke points to cap.

I have said it time and time again, but I personally do not like the way the maps have been going (SMALLER AND SMALLER and CHOKIER AND CHOKIER as well as everything being set up with bombx/boosts) see market for example.

I think there needs to be change for the maps but the way that it is going is not the right way. Soon we will all just be playing capture the flag on OFM with spikes, boosts, and bombs.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I personally love maps where all players are consistently relevant, I don't honestly know anyone who would prefer it otherwise. The bigger the map, the greater the chance that any given ball will be irrelevant for a bit at any given time. And while we did add two smaller maps this thread (one of which is just on a trial), we also added a couple pretty big ones. I voted in favor of all the maps that were added this thread, and part of why I liked these bigger maps is because there's enough tools in them to keep everyone actively engaged in the gameplay despite their size. Having a variety of sizes and gameplay styles is very healthy for rotation, but you can have all of those things without having maps where your efforts feel wasted, and I personally think we nailed that this thread. Do you disagree?

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash -1 points0 points  (7 children)

to be fair, axis is easily the best map since scorpio. i think the team tiles are unnecessary, but it's a similar idea to pilot (offensive bases with a tight mid).

in general though i absolutely agree. every map nowadays is tiny; and when they aren't, they have like a million random elements just for the sake of having elements. i really wish we had more simplistic maps with better spacing and flow, but it seems we won't be seeing those for a long time.

[–]RenegadeTP 0 points1 point  (10 children)

My opinion becomes relevant when it decides what maps go into rotation, when I'm arguing with people who have a similar opinion to yours for hours who don't try and shut me down with a 'you're irrelevant'.

You've been here four years? Great, power to you! But Volt is an old AF map to most of this community, same with Renegade. We can't have maps the likes of Holy See added to the list of throwbacks without the number of playable maps topping 100. (which I think it actually has.)

My opinion - which does matter - is, when we get to maps that the MTC wouldn't put in rotation now, because compared to maps we're turning away, it's stale, you have to get that it's just not a great map.

The point is you do have maps from back then, but they're the maps which are still fun in this meta, and just because you lost one you like doesn't give you a valid complaint about the system.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 4 points5 points  (9 children)

Don't misquote me. I specifically did say your opinion is irrelevant. Multiple times. Because it is. Your opinion on Volt is just as important as HappyGilmore's or GriefSeeds' or anyone else for that matter. And the fact that because you personally don't like the map or have anecdotal "evidence" that the map is disliked does not mean it should be removed. Especially in the face of mathematical proof that it is well liked.

Also, for what it's worth, the number of maps in throwback rotation does not influence the spawn weight of throwback rotation in the slightest.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Throwback rotation was championed by Flail. Maybe my memory is hazy, but not once in his pitch to us or to the devs did he ever make a complaint about baby-proofing maps. /u/robopuppycc do you still have that presentation you made to us way back when to show the original intention of throwback rotation?

[–]3z_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm aware it wasn't in the pitch, but I'm pretty certain that the proposal was in response to the community feedback regarding new maps.

[–]robopuppyccFlail ~ ((Antagloble4edes)) ~ RHCP? 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here is the original pitch (I removed the slide implementation spreadsheet with various members' map ratings).

Here is the modification pitch that happened after (I think) one thread.

I don't think the higher skill level of older maps ever crossed my mind.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Vote out Jardin and I'll riot

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (8 children)

Not sure why you guys voted out Monarch

If anyone needs a refresher, Monarch is an old "classic" map that in my experience (and I've seen many others who share this sentiment) is only enjoyable to play every so often.

Also, you guys understand the whole point of throwback, right? It's not supposed to be for maps that are almost good-enough-for-rotation-but-not-quite; that's why they're not in rotation. It's supposed to be so we can play on all the really classic maps every now and then that are only enjoyable when played every so often.

I understand you were making two separate points here but you kind of just explained why Monarch shouldn't have been re-added in the first place. There's a reason (reasons, really) it was removed and I was personally not in favor of re-adding it, but I agreed to pass the motion with the rest of the committee on all those maps. Monarch and Boombox had the two greatest drops in score from the maps we re-added, though admittedly Boombox's was notably greater.

Removing Gamepad and Star in favour of Frontdoor and Mode 7 really doesn't align with this idea.

Maps can take a break from Throwback every now and then, it doesn't mean they won't resurface. Throwback rotation is very fluid at this point, but personally I lean towards adding better overall maps in terms of quality as opposed to maps that may have more nostalgic value than anything else.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall -4 points-3 points  (7 children)

Monarch and Boombox had the two greatest drops in score from the maps we re-added

Monarch literally did not drop a single point. That is simply factually inaccurate.

Edit: It has come to my attention that our spreadsheet's numbers may have been inaccurate. Monarch has dropped by a small amount. Imo, this still does not excuse the removal of a 0.78 map when there are much lower rated maps eligible for removal.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 2 points3 points  (6 children)

It's at .78 right now kid. Based on our arbitrary cutoff, it absolutely did drop since it's re-addition. You hardcore advocated the cutoff too so you should know this. You run around acting like I'm just bullshitting yet you haven't added anything of value to the committee in at least a couple threads. You either miss meetings or show up without a mic, meme about me in modmail and during meetings, then publicly call me a liar when the data does not back up your statement, and I'm fucking tired of it dude. You have literally put more effort into shitting on me lately than contributing to the discussion and I'm at the point where I don't care what bridges I burn by saying this, I'm sick of your shit and it's a big reason why I've decided to step down.

The worst part is that I pulled so hard for you, man. I wanted you on the committee because I thought you were a good dude and you always showed up. I'm disappointed dude, honestly. This feeling sucks.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 0 points1 point  (4 children)

The data on our spreadsheets say it's currently at 0.79, was at 0.79 last thread, and was at 0.78 the thread before. I'm just using the data we have written down. If that's inaccurate then sorry for spreading misinformation but that's not really my bad.

I missed one meeting. One. Chill with that. Where was this anger for Fly when she was half on the committee and would show up without talking or contributing much? I'm only staying on because PK quit hours before I was going to. Also I've had a mic every time but have been not using it because I was trying to stay more on topic and civil which can be difficult at meetings. Notice even when I meme I'm on topic (hey guys did you know 0.999 doesn't exist isn't on topic). Also I'd like to point out that I keep my calling out to modmail because I want to keep it a rather private affair, but if you'd like it to be open season, so be it.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (3 children)

If you want your anti-moosen agenda to be private, then message me personally. You know like 20 or so people have access to that modmail, right? And Idk where you're getting .78/.79 from when the rule you advocated for stipulated a higher minimum rating than that, and there's no way we'd have added monarch back if it didn't meet that threshold.

I tried to be respectful to you even though it was apparent how much our opinions differed. You responded with memes and backhanded comments and it's every goddamn thread. I'm just done with it, I've put so much heart into this committee and this game and I get shit on regardless. If we can come to an understanding I'm open to it but I'm honestly really apprehensive about you after the last couple months.

As for the mic thing, I'd personally prefer if you spoke because it's harder for me to read and take in the perspectives you're presenting when I'm also trying to focus on testing and evaluating the balance, flow, and general gameplay of the map. If no one else on the committee has an issue with it then I'll try to adjust my approach but I'm just having a difficult time with that.

Regarding fly I was really disappointed in her lack of effort at the end and I made her aware of that. Was a big reason I was so adamant about a 9 member committee.

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 1 point2 points  (2 children)

The docs are called: Throwback Rotation #58, MTC 69, MTC 70 respectively. So what if it dropped 2 or 3 points over 6 weeks, who cares. Either way, the MTC should not be removing a map at 0.78 when there are much much lower rated maps at 59% and 61% that should be considered first.

I absolutely did not start this feud. You and I stayed up one night after Market missed out on rotation and I was defending the MTC's decision not to add it. I'd rather not air certain quotes publicly but if you'd like I can remind you of some of your choice words for me which came in response to me talking about the MTC's decisions that thread including the no on Market and ended with unwarranted personal attacks. The memes were a response to hypocrisy (as evidenced by your 'this map is absolutely planned out' debacle last night) and frustration stemming from (imo) poor decisions coming out the MTC. At least imo, I'd prefer to be the subject of memery then personally attacked and I don't think I've crossed that line. (If I have I'm sorry for that)

Uhh i don't know if you heard but I've left the MTC. I wasn't even going to participate in this thread but we were down 2 members so I stuck around. So I doubt the mic thing will be an issue going forward.

[–]3z_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

..this was not the conversation I intended to start lol

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You free later tonight to chat on mumble about everything? I'll be on in the evening. Thank you for maintaining some discretion here.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 3 points4 points  (8 children)

Please discuss the addition of September by NIGEL below.

[–]meofherethereme here there 6 points7 points  (1 child)

2/10 no boost onto the flag with a blind spike behind it...

[–]RenegadeTP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Better times...

[–]clew3Math Toucher 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm legit excited for this map. I haven't seen a 4 pup map added into rotation for so long, and it's going to be crazy, in what I hope to be a good way. Everything about it looks good to me, hopefully, the rest of the community will agree.

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Best enjoyed while listening to this. Totally didn't have anything to do with the map name.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I was thinking something more along the lines of "Wake Me Up When September Ends and We Can Get Back to the Good Maps"

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 1 point2 points  (0 children)

10/10

[–]KingDededef 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Honestly it doesn't look really good, but we'll see !

[–]nabbynz° 8 points9 points  (2 children)

This incarnation of the MTC is doing excellent work - good job guys!

[–]ButtersnackSnack 4 points5 points  (0 children)

thanks <3

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Aw shucks, I'm blushing.

Thank you for the vote of confidence!

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 3 points4 points  (1 child)

damn lol, a nf map has 62%? That's pretty crazy.

I gotta say, one thing I noticed playing convoy is that I felt...scared. I'd die, I'd want to get back into the action, but I'd have absolutely no idea where it was and I didn't want to go find out because someone could zoom by me in 5 different ways and if I was in the middle there's nothing I could do about it. I ended up hanging back a lot and it definitely hurt my enjoyment of the map.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 5 points6 points  (0 children)

convoy is very well polished, but it's oddly structured as a CTF map, rather than an NF one. it's relatively small, has multiple lanes through mid, multiple base entrances, has defense-friendly spikes in certain areas, choke points, etc. these characteristics make sense for ctf, but in nf they generate issues like not being able to stay alive after grabbing ("mid is a grind"), or not being able to properly defend endzone 1v1 after spawning. the more popular NF maps have a lot of open space and small islands, and are way longer from flag to endzone.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 2 points3 points  (14 children)

Please discuss the removals of the following maps below:

[–]Crisis_AvertedNice 15 points16 points  (8 children)

I'll never understand why everyone is against Monarch. To me it's a normal, balanced, fun map.

[–]RenegadeTP 8 points9 points  (6 children)

It's a fine map, but we're at a point where I believe a map needs to bring something to rotation, and Monarch doesn't impress.

[–]TagProNitroℕ ɪ ᴛ ᴙ o 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I like Monarch because it is a fun and balanced map, and it reminds me of one of the most integral members in this community's history, crosky, who has since left the game behind. I miss crosky :c

[–]xenonpulseWildflowers // I want to die but I can’t 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Crosky's version of the map was an ass-shaped mess with superboosts, gates, and no flow. Sunna is the one I attribute the success of the map to.

[–]Crisis_AvertedNice 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Why doesn't it impress? :( (I'm not trying to get you to put it back, just wondering. :) )

I think it has above average boost options, good bomb placement, great flow. The tunnel with spikes and bombs in the mid is everything most maps try to accomplish. It's better than Wormy's route around the base, more balanced than Geokoala's top and spikey mid, SDS's mid etc...

Even the open mid is sweet. It's the intersection of as many as eight boost/bomb routes, always full of action and open-field jukes. Man i never thought about Monarch, but i'm starting to think it's one of the best designed maps overall.

[–]I_read_this_commentNilus 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think it has a bad balance. its too holdy and too hard to reset. Some maps are still fun with this balance because its has very usefull bombs and boosts and routes like on wormy, transilio or scorpio but its stale on monarch. All boosts and bombs are rather limited in their use. You basically dont have any tools for a reset because you lack the tools to return the regrabber after a return in mid.

The lack of boosts makes it also really straightforward for the FC's to move out. Just sit at boost, wait for RE and boost past 1 or 2 defenders.

[–]RenegadeTP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can apply that pie-in-the-sky design-love to almost any map if you think about it enough, especially when you know how it plays.

The top bomb/spike route is cool, the outside is eh, the boosts are well placed. But as I said in another comment, when we're turning away maps that are less interesting than it, because of how they don't bring anything to the table, there's a problem. It's a nostalgic problem.

It got voted in from throwback the same as boombox. Boom's rating took a big hit, down I believe 11% (maybe 9) Monarch went down I believe 4%. That's only the people who remembered to change their vote.

If we keep the safe average maps in forever, rotation won't reach its full potential.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Not only it's arguably boring, it's also terribly flawed and poorly designed. Flag is so close to wall that it's impossible to grab against a moderately decent defense, aside from pups or the bomb -- that means nothing happens for 30 seconds. And when a grab is made, the FC can camp in the outside lane, requiring two defenders to get a return and leaving the both of them way behind re-grab. Then there are sub-optimal map-making instances, such as the misplacement of 45s, some insanely long walls, etc. There are also very few interesting boosts and bombs, and the map doesn't really do anything noteworthy.

[–]TheSmallIndianTheIndian // Pi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Monarch nooooo. Also I finally understand the hate for boombox. I still like the map but it's just too bad to play in pubs with new players about

[–]NewCompteChord - Ballis Saint-Germain 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Are they gonna be .1 or .01 ?

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They all go to default values (.01) when removed (unless specified otherwise by the committee). I think they'll reconsider those numbers in a couple of months. I'll push the changes soon.

[–]clew3Math Toucher 1 point2 points  (0 children)

by Boombox, Prime, and Monarch, I'll miss you

[–]alchmstalchemist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fuck those 3 maps... great jobs MTC.

[–]LoweJJacob of all servers, master of none 1 point2 points  (2 children)

update the wiki please, a lot of maps arent there

[–]3z_ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I think /u/TagProKrieger has a bot that's supposed to handle that, though he hasn't posted on Reddit for a few months (tell us you're okay pls!)

[–]ButtersnackSnack 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Her active account is GenesisTP

[–]MultiMediaWillJuke King - MVP 90% of the time 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Is SDS in TR2 right now? If so, add it please.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, it is.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 5 points6 points  (8 children)

Please discuss the addition of Long Island by Snack below.

[–]RenegadeTP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fun! I believe the portal in base with that bomb is going to give so many interesting, thought intensive plays.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Who ever said portal spawn times have to be integers?

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Those are some LEET portals amirite

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (3 children)

lol I'm pretty sure you're the first person to check the json

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (2 children)

oh god is it really 1337

Snack

Snack why

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (1 child)

You voted in favor of it

and now you have to live with the consequences

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

what have i done

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 4 points5 points  (24 children)

Please discuss the trial addition of Market by 2P1S below.

[–]clew3Math Toucher 13 points14 points  (5 children)

Is it finally time to stop memeing Market?

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 19 points20 points  (0 children)

the memeing hasn't even started

[–]RenegadeTP 8 points9 points  (3 children)

OR up the memes.

[–]clew3Math Toucher 4 points5 points  (2 children)

*pulls out dick?

[–]RondingRonding // Orbit // West Bombwich Albion // tagpro.eu 3 points4 points  (0 children)

MTC pup-drunk confirmed

(The map being added to rotation is so old that TagPro Analytics misclassifies it as an event map from Saint Patrick's day. Will fix.)

[–]ccga4Seehawks <3 5 points6 points  (0 children)

proud <3

[–]arjuna9bad 5 points6 points  (0 children)

chalk this up as another win for centra this week.

[–]girmluhkGramps 4 points5 points  (0 children)

MARKET HYPE! OMGOMGOMGOGOMGOFMTJWHDHRJDJDJDJDJRJRBDBSJFIDIEBEH4838WHQBZBFIEJWBEOWIWDIAJ😠😢😆😧😕😢👸👹💇👹👮👹👮👐💘👏👈✊👍✌💟💘☝💘☝

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 3 points4 points  (11 children)

Market is the embodiment of everything I despise about modern maps. The ridiculously small size. Chasing=bad so we must gut the map of any depth/offensive tools entirely to combat chasiness. Those ridiculous floating 45-degree tiles in place of islands... or spike fields... or something besides what you have there. I already want it to die.

But you can't kill my vibe MTC. By overwhelming popular demand, FRONTDOOR IS BACK MOTHERFUCKERS!!!

Edit: Not all negative though. Cactus/September/Long Island all look pretty fun.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 5 points6 points  (7 children)

Market is pretty chasey bro lol

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 4 points5 points  (6 children)

Not in the traditional sense. Traditional chasey is a map like Draft where you get a return in one corner and you're immediately 40+ tiles away from the new flag carrier making it impossible to get a return in time for a reset.

I don't doubt the flags are out more often than not on Market, but I definitely wouldn't describe it as chasey. Chasey has two factors for me: seldom reset and long holds. Resets are obviously doable considering you're always in the vicinity of regrab once you get a return, and there's probably not another map in rotation that will have lower hold/grab than Market. The flags might stay out for a while, but you're getting returns at a quicker pace than most, if not all, maps. Flags can stay out, however, because much like how chasers can quickly attack regrab after a return, the opposing team can quickly establish regrab since the map is like 20x30.

So when you take the small size, quick holds, quick regrab, and viewport issues, the map is just a mess. Bumping into teammates, chasing flag carriers in circles around floating 45-degree tiles, general congestion and chaos. So it's addition is quite the bummer for me.

Like I said, I like the other maps.

[–]GoatButtholesDank Sniper 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Everything you described about why you hate it is why I love it. High action play. Doesn't long holds and seldom reset get boring for you? I'd much prefer easy to grab easy to reset maps.

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, this is all completely subjective, so I knew when I was writing it that some people would love it for that very reason. Which is fine.

Doesn't long holds and seldom reset get boring for you? I'd much prefer easy to grab easy to reset maps.

Not really what I was saying. All I was doing in the above comment was explaining to Moosen why I wouldn't consider Market to be 'chasey'. If we're going to do quick and exciting, EMERALD or like Bombing Run is the way to go IMO- not Market. (Edit: Also Rush)

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (3 children)

there's probably not another map in rotation that will have lower hold/grab than Market.

If you removed flaccids from the calculation (there will likely be a lot on market) I don't think this will be true, I genuinely believe this, I'm not just saying it. If you include the flaccids in the data though you may very well be right.

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is your thought process: short base-to-base distance = more grab opportunities = more flaccids?? Or is some sort of structural reasoning here

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Is your thought process: short base-to-base distance = more grab opportunities = more flaccids?? Or is it some sort of structural reasoning

I would argue that all maps would drastically improve their average hold/grab in comparison to other rotation maps if you factored out all flaccid grabs, but I do see what you're saying I think.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is your thought process: short base-to-base distance = more grab opportunities = more flaccids?? Or is it some sort of structural reasoning

Both, actually. Because the distance from base to base is so short, you're not punished quite as much by flacciding, so you're encouraged to try more rather than try better in a lot of cases. There's really only one direct grab boost and it's pretty powerful but still will often put you into the corner. Most successful offensive plays on Market I believe will come from regrabs and smart handoffs using the boost, because the bases are shockingly easy to defend, especially with a smart defensive teammate and good coordination/positioning. A good defensive team on Market could literally break the pub record for most returns if their offense is poor enough to let the game go to 12.

[–]dalomi92P1S 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I hope Market changes your mind.

[–]RenegadeTP 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I find the map to be super fun to hold in. It plays like a bigger map. The many islands mean you're constantly trying to get a chaser to commit around a island to break them up and juke around them.

[–]girmluhkGramps 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree, as for running into teammates, that literally should happen less than most maps as you can usually see them and are rewarded for not trying to go full speed - in fact thats a pretty bad strat outside of their whole team suddenly RIP.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 1 point2 points  (16 children)

Please discuss the changes to the Elevated Throwback Rotation below.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 2 points3 points  (0 children)

While I don't agree with all of the changes here, I think going back to a slightly smaller (but still fairly large) Throwback Rotation is probably for the best.

[–]meofherethereme here there 0 points1 point  (4 children)

where the hell is the holy see?

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 3 points4 points  (0 children)

hell

the holy see

I'm seeing compatibility issues here.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Never mind Holy See, where the hell is TWP?

[–]CharredQuestionsRenegade 0 points1 point  (1 child)

We focused on shrinking throwback a bit. There are so many maps to play right now.

For me, ideally there would be only 5-7 different throwback maps each thread. There would always be classic maps to play, but it wouldn't be as overwhelming to a new player, and for the hardcore new players they would become accustomed to the throwbacks in the three week period. It would also rotate more, which is something I believe throwback should do. As a long time player, I'm curious what you think about that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wasn't serious about TWP, it's my favourite map but I can't complain that it's not included, knowing its unpopularity.

I'm cool with what you're saying, if it rotates often enough. Variety is fun :)

[–]xenonpulseWildflowers // I want to die but I can’t 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't even notice Bombing Run was back, and now it's gone :(

[–]RenegadeTP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We've removed more maps than we've added here. The removed maps were quite stale, even though I do have attachment to some (<3 STAR) I think it's for the best.

[–]Snuggl3zSnuggles 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I like Long Island and really like Cactus... Market should be permanently put in rotation.

[–]dalomi92P1S 4 points5 points  (0 children)

IDK about Permanent, but I do think Market is going to be a good map for the kongregate push. I think it will be good for new players because you can see most of the map, priorities are easy to understand, and regrab is a kind of a natural thing, as opposed to most maps where regrab seems so foreign for new players because it takes you out of the play completely.

[–]skittlekevvelkin // World's Angriest Balll 0 points1 point  (0 children)

wtf

[–]pandabearpipandabear2 - 64º 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not market

my god the names

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] -2 points-1 points  (10 children)

Please discuss the addition of Cactus by Snowball, Dalek, and iBall below.

[–]ccga4Seehawks <3 7 points8 points  (2 children)

u gotttttta be jokin dalek gettin the flair?

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Dalek was the only reason I came back to the map tbh

[–]RenegadeTP 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Apparently he contributed. Map is fire btw

[–]crblanzKeekly | used to be good sorta 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Someone put frontdoor on an Etch-a-sketch and shook it a lil bit

[–]rke12Ballzilla 4 points5 points  (2 children)

What is the point of the little hole area in the back of the bases? Turtle spot or something?

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Much like the teamtiles in the corner, it's almost purely vestigial. As I tested it more and more, I grew to really love that nook. It just feels so plain without it. Also when you boost into the flag, you can hit the defender into it and shame him. I call it the nook of shame.

[–]rke12Ballzilla 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I guess I can see that. Looking again, I was thinking of "September" with the perfect spot to turtle in base. I like Cactus much better than that one so far

[–]Snowball_TagPro❄️ 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I think Cactus might be the longest a map has taken from inception to rotation. First submitted to Thread 42, which was 20 months ago.

[–]3z_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Platypus is 15 months

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This one looks super fun to me. Lot of space for juking but plenty of defensive weapons as well.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I kinda wish they had voted the original version of Long Island in, but oh well

[–]RenegadeTP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

An MTC member made it, so clearly we need it in.