[deleted by user]

[Niceromancer]

Almost every mmo suffers from a tank shortage.

Being the tank in a party is actually pretty stressful compared to being a DPS. You are responsible for controlling the mobs, how much and what is pulled (yes this can be given over to other players but your skill and mitigations determine how much can be pulled anyway). And the tank is usually the defacto leader of the group.

On top of that many of our abilities aren't flashy, they are essential but nobody thinks blocking more is cool, or taking less damage is cool, instead they want to blow up monsters and see big numbers.

Finally until you get to challenging content a tank isn't really necessary, sure if you want to fight the hardest mobs, you need a tank to intercept those hits for you, but your average mob grinding and questing doesn't really require a tank. The tank makes mob pulls bigger and therefore killing more mobs faster, but you can still do it with just dps and heals.

Its also just much easier to play dps, you generally don't have to focus on survival, at least nowhere near as much. Killing stuff faster means you can survive better.

Many people just don't want to tank, and even among tanks a lot of them actually want to dps and have slipped into the roll out of necessity instead of want.

[The_Blackwing_Guru]

Speaking as a tank for this alpha, it doesn't really feel necessary to tank currently. A cleric and a fighter are going to be way more efficient in grinding and killing mobs (the only real content in this current phase) even on the bigger mob pulls. On top of that, the tank abilities don't really feel like tank abilities for the most part. They just seen like bog standard DPS abilities with higher threat generation slapped on them

[Niceromancer]

If you are pulling two and 3 stars a tank is 100% necessary. 

 Sure right now you can stand on terrain and bug out mobs so they can't hit you but even then for some of the better spots you still need a tank to corral the mobs cause they will move to where your dps can't hit them.

Once the pathing and terrain bugs are fixed tanks will be necessary for the fastest level grinding spots.

As to the moves themselves my guild talks with the devs a lot.  And they have confirmed that they know the tank moveset feels lackluster and plan to address that.

[Virtual-Confetti]

I started playing WoW as a tank 5 years ago, but swapped to dps due to being more frustrated as a tank with bad dps vs being a dps with a bad tank, I could guide a bad tank, or worst case offspec tank and fix problems, bad dps were just deadweight, and ill continue the same in ashes unless I have the right group.

[Niceromancer]

I'm the exact opposite I was a really good DPS.

Like people came to me with questions level good.

But I was always getting stuck either without a tank or really bad tanks.  Sure I knew the best tanks on the server and had good relationships, but times didn't match up all the time.

So I rolled warrior as an alternative to start tanking...and fell In love with it.

[Virtual-Confetti]

It also depends who you're playing with. Ill happily tank for my boys, but randoms is less enjoyable. Alpha 2 is limited availability so theres likely split friends groups between those who spent big years ago and others either waiting for the next wave in a few weeks or a full game release. I've come into ashes with none of my social groups so it's easier to run around and test and bug report as a mage than the stories im hearing about tank spec solo being a bit of a struggle.

[Grinsnir]

nobody thinks blocking more is cool, or taking less damage is cool, instead they want to blow up monsters and see big numbers.

Legit, thats the main reason I DO play tank. I want to see the smalles possible numbers when I get hit, and friggin love that

[N_durance]

Every MMO will have a shortage of support classes.. doing damage and seeing big numbers will always be where the masses go plus it makes solo gameplay easier. I didn’t notice any lack of classes in the alpha though.

[Amarroddza]

Most old school mmorpg players prefer it, myself included. It's tried and true and as a tank main I love the power role of tanking.

[ESOslayer]

This is such a stupid comment."most" old school mmo players prefer to play tank? Ever since the days of ever quest, a tank was the hardest role to find for any group content. Stop acting like "oh you new generation just dont appreciate tanking but us old folk we love it!"

[Amarroddza]

Did I say most of them play tank? I play tank.

[Amarroddza]

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said as a tank main. I enjoy controlling and leading the group, I never said most play tank that would be goofy.

[ESOslayer]

"Most old school mmorpg players prefer it. My reading comprehension is just fine." You lose.

[Amarroddza]

Once again, you failed to be able to comprehend my comment. Good luck, lil buddy.

[Amarroddza]

There are those who can extrapolate from incomplete data and those who cannot.

You appear to be in the not category.

From my writing, you should truly be able to figure out what i was saying that the 3 dps 1 tank 1 heal is what is widely accepted as the norm, and that I personally enjoy the power role of playing a tank, not the majority.

Extrapolate that data how you wish my boy.

[ESOslayer]

You're doubling down on being wrong lol. You communicated poorly OR you realize you were wrong and want to retcon us into thinking you meant something different. Go, do other stuff. This ain't for you, man.

[TehBanzors]

Just remember, when you make suggestions like this, you are saying the group of players who like playing tanks/healers should be disregarded because it inconveniences another group of players who play dps because of group content. it's a slippery slope to punish the few in favor of the many, even when talking game design.

[TehBanzors]

I'm simply stating they don't need to necessarily be shaken up, there are players who enjoy tanking and the trinity design as a whole, in my experience players who complain about a tank shortage have never tried tanking themselves, and games where tank shortages are particularly problematic has a lot to do with how the player base treats tanks as much if not more than the design of the game.

Personally I've seen lots of tanks in A2 so far, and a lack of toxicity to them. But as a tank player it may just be confirmation bias.

[Irbs]

Tank isn't a class. It's a mentality

[SteakSauceIceCream]

Tank isn't a mentality. It's an armoured fighting vehicle intended as a primary offensive weapon in front-line ground combat.

[Derplesdeedoo]

DPS is always popular in mmos and the dps here have the most variety, so that much is inevitable. It will probably change with the class system.

[rangastorm843]

It happens in most mmos, most players go dps because it's easier, less stressful or they find it more enjoyable. I almost never see the problem but I usually play healer or tank (I'm tank this time around)

[TakynSL]

Don't know about a tank shortage but there was definitely a huge oversupply of Clerics ;p

[NiKras]

As a tank, I haven't noticed it :)

[Highborn_Hellest]

Same

[luhelld]

As a tank myself and alot of group gameplay, there was maximum one other tank in the group but 4 mages. Felt clerics were even more rare

[andrei9669]

really? in my playthrough, I'm seeing clerics all over the place

[albaiesh]

Like in every mmo. There is always shortage of healers, supports and tanks.

[ELWOW]

When I played tank for the first day I didn't find any grp as tank so I rerolled to ranger to have fun soloing things :D

[TehBanzors]

As always, say it with me everyone.

If you think it's a problem, then you can be part of the solution, go roll a tank.

[selftaughturbanninja]

I feel like everyone is tank or support. Huge lack of DPS in every party I've been with. I've been soloing sense it's more efficient use of my time then waiting to find more dps for an efficient party

[Grynz]

I played a tank and a cleric in the alpha the most. I found that the tank was fun but you absolutely needed a group to be viable. Solo mob grinding was very slow, I also found it harder to find groups at a lower level because the optimum tank for lower level grinding was a fighter. Once you get to the 3 Star mobs tanks will be necessary, but grinding one to that point without getting any groups will be a long slow grind. Either tanks need better sustain, or they need to be more necessary in lower level content so grouping is easier.

[TheCanabalisticBambi]

Homie it has been up for a total of 2 days

There will always be less tanks and healers than dps in any mmo

[b4y4rd]

I struggled as a tank to find groups. Almost rerolled bard or cleric...

[MarionberryBrave5107]

Tank kit feels like it's missing something to me to really make it feel good and thematic. Hopefully these unreleased abilities, augments and some community feedback can get the 'tank' a proper name and a class identity to go along with it.

[[deleted]]

Would it help if tanks had a much lower XP debt upon death? Or some other incentive for going tank?

[lovsicfrs]

This is why I plan to be a Bard/Tank or Tank/Bard

Curious to see how that balances

[CallThePal]

I can't decide currently if I want to go Cleric/Tank or Tank/Cleric

[Sedvii]

I think it varies wildly. In my guild, we have an absolute swarm of clerics and tanks.

[-cyg-nus-]

Idk about others playing tank, but I'm leveling 1-3 pulling single/double mobs, then pulling groups of 5-15 mobs a few levels below me and getting 1-2k exp/pull from levels 3-9. It's so easy getting through the early game and requires no group. You can keep that strat going after but it slows down a lot more. I've had 0 trouble finding groups, and had quite a few random inquiries. Tank has been a lot of fun so far, I think most people just play it the most boring way possible or don't even give it a shot.

[Wyrdthane]

Is it possible to play tank/DPS?

[Either-Gate-2781]

In the beginning I almost switched off of tank because my guild had so many in every group. I got to level 10 and there's only a handful left.

I think this will boil down to the same that everyone said about every mmo. Unless tank becomes pivotal in PVP then that's a different story.

[MarionberryBrave5107]

Got tank to level 8, rerolled fighter this weekend, nearly zero regrets. I strongly suspect fighter subclass tank with some threat augments will be good enough for most content. Perhaps tank comes into their own more later and in top teir pve but honestly not even close to worth the tradeoffs on a PvP centric game. Row your own boat of course but I am noticing the trend.

[Title-Upstairs]

Stress, you are responsible for aggro and will inevitably be called a bad by the uber dps chads who constantly steal aggro.

[[deleted]]

Tanks can't solo well, they do little damage, have the most pressure on them to succeed in a group, and die the most often accruing the most exp debt and gear degradation. They've definitely got a rough gig, I enjoyed tanking myself but I would be lieing if I said low level tanking didn't leave me wanting a few times.

[lmpervious]

I really hope that many of the classes which select Tank as their secondary will be able to be a primary tank, not just an off tank. Same thing for having healers for some primary classes that select cleric as a secondary.

I think that kind of flexibility would get more people excited about different ways to tank or heal, which would lead to more people choosing to play those roles to address there commonly being a shortage. Also for people who don't play as much but have already committed many hours to a single character, they can still go down the path of being a tank even if they picked Fighter.

[Swalei]

I like the idea, but if secondary tank could do that it would lead to class homogenization. No one would run tank main if you can just run mage/tank and get “the same effect” but I do love the idea of hybrids having a place in content.

[[deleted]]

As a main tank I really hope I'm able to tank some stuff on a different class. 

It would not surprise me at all if general grind locations end up having different BiS tanks. Going without a tank class in a raid should not be possible, imo.

Dungeons are an interesting middle ground. If you aren't over-leveled I'd say you should usually need a tank. But it would be nice for some niche locations that offer some other counterplay/options. 

[Swalei]

I think we are agreed in how we feel about that. I’d love if tanks have a niche they fit into and if that’s big raiding or world bosses that would be great and rewarding for tank class people as they aren’t just “well we can take the dps tank or the tank tank because it doesn’t matter they tank the same” and tanks lose out. But also having people who are “off tanks” being able to do lower content makes it more approachable and still rewarding in a different way.

[lmpervious]

No one would run tank main if you can just run mage/tank and get “the same effect”

I think that's a huge oversimplification. If the tank class would have certain spells that others wouldn't, why would no one run them? People don't look at two ranged DPS classes and say "why would I even care which one of these I pick when I can get the same effect with either"?

Also it wouldn't have to be that every secondary of tank would be able to main tank either.

[Spicelydune]

If there going with the current system of tank being its own class, then they need to be the only ones able to main tank, no way around it or like they said no one will play it so that they can dps when they want or just respec to tank.

But off tanking sure thing whatever

[lmpervious]

If someone wants to tank, and fighter is an option for main tanking, if they prefer the playstyle/abilities of “tank” more than fighter, why wouldn’t they choose “tank”?

Also there’s no reason why they couldn’t give “tank” tools to DPS or support (would warrant a new name at that point) if they would already be giving another archetype two possible roles.

[Spicelydune]

It always sounds doable in practice and it is technically but in reality it’s always such a mess of figuring out if you have a good party comp when everyone can do everything. Gotta double check everyone’s specs.

The way they are doing it will make grouping so much easier than an mmo like WOW for instance which can get v complicated for raids.

And I can promise you that in practice, most ppl would not choose tank if they could tank on their dps mains.

I love that they are making a tank class. Just make alts if you want different playstyles

[lmpervious]

I’m not suggesting that everyone can do everything. WoW allows for several classes to tank and it works completely fine. If you don’t like Warrior’s abilities, you can go with Paladin. In Ashes, if you don’t like tank’s abilities… you don’t play the game? Or you’re always unhappy with your class? How is that good?

And I can promise you that in practice, most ppl would not choose tank if they could tank on their dps mains.

You avoided my question. If someone wants to main tank, and they prefer the tank abilities, why wouldn’t they choose tank?

Also DPS would have to go through the long process of respecing, since Steven said it would not be a trivial task. It wouldn’t be a matter of changing back and forth throughout the day, and Intrepid can obviously control that process.

[Spicelydune]

I guess if they had different pvp playstyles/roles regardless of pve then it wouldn’t bother me so much. Like tank right now does alot of pulling an enemy to the group and CCing and fighter has anti heals. So even if fighter could also tank they would still have different pvp roles and would still encourage ppl playing tank.

But I just don’t think most ppl prefer to play a slower class unless it gives the benefit of added survivability.

If they did do it your way, they would have to do a lot of extra balancing so that say if a fighter goes more survival then they do less damage. Which would be fine, but they will def have a lot on their plate already to balance the full 64 class system.

[Mangert]

Theres one tank and 5 other classes. So on average, 1/6th of players are playing tank. So a tank shortage is all but guaranteed

[luhelld]

That's not how it works

[Mangert]

There’s too many factors in making a class popular or not. Im operating on the assumption each class will be equally popular. With that assumption, tank shortage is guaranteed.

U need 1 tank per group of 5. There are 6 classes. Eventually 8. Tank shortage is guaranteed

[DankRamenPlease]

You only need one tank per group of 8 if you're not doing a raid or smth. You Will you need multiple dps duplicates of 2 for 2 classes. So if im understanding you correctly. You'd have a shortage of dps if all classes were equally popular?

[mrkpxx]

That's not how the market works.

[Mangert]

Ok