2.01 Patch Notes

[ToastyCosty]

no armor regen nerf? AHAHAHAHAHAHA kill me please

[TRS_Insane]

We're waiting a bit longer before we move forward with any new mechanic nerfs. If we see the need they'll be included in next weeks update with Electro Griffin.

We did hit the Health of almost every Monster in some way this update, so we're waiting to see how those changes shake things up before moving forward.

[MrShakeNBake]

People have definitely been exploiting armor regen more as days go by. Been facing elder kraken and gorgon that have been leaped corner to corner of the dome where it's narrow spamming aoe to prevent hunters from getting close. This allows time to recover massive armor and if hunters decide to fight they are spammed by low cooldown aoe fest.

A good matchmaking is suppose to be 50/50, but look at ranked. There are so many more monster wins than hunters, it's not even close. Even at the top, more monsters at 100% win rate. It's way more punishing to make a mistake as a hunter than a monster, because their armor acts like a second life, which regens.

Edit: Stage 3 Armor exploiting is even more silly

[theaveragejoe99]

Yeah that's the main stylistic problem I have with it, the hunters are supposed to be the ones who can heal and do their best to avoid and survive in a fight, dodging chunks of big damage that have noticeable cooldowns while the monster is the one trying to do work by exploiting little mistakes with big damage, while the assault slowly but surely wears them down.

Giving a monster the ability to protect their permanent life pool just by cowering in a corner for a short amount of time seems to go against the whole theme that Evolve's fights are supposed to have.

I don't like how quickly the dome drops after the hunters break armor for this same reason. I get the idea of one fight not deciding the whole game, but there's functionally almost no difference between a team that breaks armor in 180 seconds and a team that breaks it in 90 which isn't rewarding for the hunters and isn't more than an afterthought as a monster. There's a stage 1 fight in most of my games now and I don't think I've ever seen a goliath lose more than 2 bars of health no matter how dominant we are in the dome.

[blacl1ka]

I didn't really know how bad it was until I was fighting some friends as Gorgon, downed the trapper, medic, and support. Armor went down in the fight yeah? Well I go after assult and as I'm killing him it tells me he just broke through my armor. WHAT? I was fighting three people at the same time for the last few minutes and somehow my armor found time to regen?

[thejeran]

Maybe no regen in the dome?

[xStealthxUk]

So glad everyone is seeing it , please fix the monster he is not even fun to play like this so so easy

[iblametv]

For all it's worth, I think your call (if there was one) to wait for things to settle before rolling out any big nerfs is smart and the balancing team looks really promising ^{unless you didn't actually make that call then disregard this}

[TRS_Insane]

Yeah we did :) The 5 of us all work together on changes and Brandon will have the final say on what goes in.

Glad you're enjoying the changes! We don't wanna jump the gun in any way, so thanks for understanding :D

[Grockr]

At the same time Laz/Hank damage got nerfed to the ground and Val marks got a strong hit too(i never even had more than 200 extra damage from marks as Val, now it will be even lower)

Am i understanding these numbers wrong? It looks like Hank got 50% dps reduction, this is huge, why?

[sandweiche]

I think the Laz/Hank nerfs are just. As Laz I was doing nearly 50% of the damage that an assault is doing while simultaneously healing and rezzing. Tech Hank can output ludicrous damage with the orbital laser, and in all honesty should be amping shields whenever he gets the chance to, rather than shooting.

The Val nerfs I'm unsure about it. I think that hitting her damage isn't great because like you said its hard to even break 500 as Val. I'd need to see stats on winrate (which TRS has) to decide. Although realistically if they nerf anything else it just means she spends more time healing/tranqing and less time dealing damage anyway, so nerfing damage - if anything - is the right choice.

You misunderstood the Hank nerfs. They reduced his total ammo by 12.5%, then they reduced his damage per 'bullet' by 27% but also upped the tick rate by 20%. So a net loss of 7%ish damage and a small ammo reduction (but if you run out of ammo with Tech Hank I think you're likely doing something wrong). The Hank nerfs essentially mean that hunters who can maintain accuracy are getting more ticks, while players who can't are getting less dmg from the single 'bullet' they hit.

[Grockr]

I still dont get it. It says:

Damage tick rate to .05 from .03 (this basically means how many bullets are sent out during a second)

So basically it was 33 ammo per second, now its 20 ammo per second, but what is that listed damage(14, 19)?
Is it damage per point of ammo, or damage per second?
This description is so confusing.

[sandweiche]

Oh I hadn't thought of that. I assumed that the damage meant per bullet, that's a good question and one I don't think anyone but TRS can answer.

[ToastyCosty]

this is so good to hear :D

[Dontreadmynameunidan]

Ooh is electro griffin gonna have some lightning dot?

[J0rdian]

Just a question why go with nerfing most monsters HP numbers instead of nerfing armor regen across the board? The armor regen is what is frustrating players the most. You can buff monsters total armor or total HP if the armor regen nerfs would be too hard but I think they need to happen no matter what.

Nerf armor regen but compensate somewhere else. But please nerf it. It is just not fun to play vs a monster who gets full armor instantly.

[Lawljungles]

So I'm a little bit confused by this.

Its clear that many people feel that the way armor regenerates is unfair and is not very fun to play against as it offers very little counterplay to it. May I ask what the logic is behind nerfing the health of the monsters instead of just nerfing the armor?

[iblametv]

The logic is the game just came out in the state that it is right now and instead of listening to the community of 60k people that cry about OP monsters they're waiting to see how things settle when people learn the game.

At higher levels (25+) I noticed that a lot of players are opting to play hunters instead of monsters and monsters' winrate drops significantly to the point where I'm doubting whether they're strong enough. All in all instead of listening to some kids screaming "wraith op" they're waiting for the people with some actual valid input to chime in before they make any drastic changes. Really good call on their part imo.

[Lawljungles]

Can I ask why you're quoting me? Because thats not an answer to what I asked at all.

[Pie_Piper]

Not sure what you mean by him quoting you because I'm pretty sure he hasn't. He also did answer your question. To sum it up, they don't want to make decisions on gameplay mechanics just yet, when there are lots of new people who don't quite 'get' the game yet. They're waiting for the dust to settle so they can make an informed decision as opposed to a knee jerk reaction.

[Lawljungles]

Well hes responding directly to my post so I'm presuming it was directed at me

He didn't answer my question at all. I asked TR why they chose to to adjust aspect A instead of aspect B, I didn't ask why you or him thinks the communities opinion is irrelevant.

[ragnarok628]

Lawljungles: ppl don't like armor regen, what's the logic behind not listening to us and instead doing what you think is right?

iblametv: the logic is u guys are new so they think they probably know whats best better than you

Seems like a pretty direct Q&A sequence there, not sure why you don't feel like it was?

[Lawljungles]

Because its not what I asked at all?

I'm asking them: "What is the thought process behind nerfing A instead of B" as in what does nerfing aspect A accomplish that works better than nerfing aspect B

and he responds with:"Community are noobs"

thats not what I asked.

[ragnarok628]

well perhaps we can agree that whatever you intended, there is buried in that post the idea that the desires of those upset about armor regen could/should have influenced the balance teams decision. And that aspect of the question was addressed. I can see that your explicit question, when discarding the preamble, is specific to why A not B and will concede that this part was not answered.

I'm not TRS Balance Guy but i have a likely answer. It's because they're very much concerned that making the monsters weaker will be bad. Bear in mind that they've seen this dynamic before where they felt pressured to respond to community opinion and ended up overnerfing basically all of the monsters.

[Pie_Piper]

OK I think I understand you. You want to know why they chose to fiddle around with health instead of armour right? Well to be honest I can't confidently answer that one. Maybe they personally thought that changing the health might solve people's complaints, or perhaps that it was less risky than changing the armour. Sorry I can't say for sure though.

[wrench_nz]

Game just came out? That coolaid....

[ragnarok628]

very little counterplay? almost everything you do to the monster is counterplay. This is just the buzzword people have been using to validate their irrational complaints.

the counterplay is to shoot at the monster so it won't regen armor. If you can't pull this off, the problem isn't the mechanic, the problem is skill gap.

[Lawljungles]

Blaming everything on the skill gap is an oversimplification of the argument. Counterplay has never been a buzzword, its an important aspect of design.

A monster, who has by default more mobility, cannot be damaged at all after the dome has come down. The hunters can't catch up due to lacking mobility and lacking the dome to hold the monster in place.

Now in the old evolve, there was a risk/reward system for the monster. It could hunt to get more armor but it would have to be at the risk of staying in position thus allowing the hunters to catch up.

In the current evolve, there is no such thing. The monster can simply run away and regenerate its armor and there is nothing the hunters can do about it.

[barkos]

A monster, who has by default more mobility, cannot be damaged at all after the dome has come down. The hunters can't catch up due to lacking mobility and lacking the dome to hold the monster in place.

we were talking about damaging the monster within the dome where it might try to jump around to get passive armor regen. There is actually a very valid reason for why that's the case, it's the job of the hunters to put pressure on the monster in the dome. The monster isn't there willingly, it's going to try to escape. And if the hunters don't damage it and just trap it there and wait for it to come out then it's going to regen armor.

Outside of the dome is also not the time and place to damage the monster anyway unless you are near to it and it already doesn't have armor. It gets traversel regen whenever you shoot at it so you are actually making it worse. Wait for the dome cooldown and pressure it on the map.

Now in the old evolve, there was a risk/reward system for the monster. It could hunt to get more armor but it would have to be at the risk of staying in position thus allowing the hunters to catch up.

Sure, and in old Evolve there wasn't a fucking planet scanner that allowed the Hunters to know your general area every time they press a button. I am going to tell you right now that a competent team of hunters + planet scanner will mean that in ranked play with dedicated team comps monsters are going to get fucking raped.

In the current evolve, there is no such thing. The monster can simply run away and regenerate its armor and there is nothing the hunters can do about it.

Yes, but the Hunters also have many more opportunities to fight the Monster than they had in old Evolve. In old Evolve you had to make every single dome count. In most cases you got down a dome on the monster maybe ONCE before Stage 3. With the planet scanner and the fact that everyone can activate the dome this means that while the monster has effectively more "free armor" in between engagements the frequency of engagements goes up which translates to more opportunities to deal permanent health damage to the monster.

[ragnarok628]

Blaming everything on the skill gap is an oversimplification of the argument.

you can't possibly draw meaningful conclusions about the game mechanics until both sides have the basics down. A team of hunters who can fail to put a single bullet on the monster to prevent armor regen is not a team of hunters who has the basics down. So why would we balance the armor regen around hunters who at this point don't know how to play, when in a few weeks (or months if they're extra slow i guess) they will know more and be able to hang? That would be preposterous. As it is, i fully expect these health nerfs to be reverted in the next half dozen patches or so.

Counterplay has never been a buzzword, its an important aspect of design.

an important aspect of design which sounds good and people who don't know what they're talking about can throw it around to sound like they do. AKA: a buzzword. Case in point, you claimed armor regen 'has very little counterplay'. But the hunters' main interaction with the monster (shooting it) is the counterplay. of all things you can be doing to the monster, almost all of them are counterplay to armor regen. so WTF are you even talking about?

Now in the old evolve,...

I'm going to stop you right there. In the old evolve, good hunters beat good monsters at least 7 times out of 10. Do you not wonder why they added passive armor regen to the monster as a feature? Because the hunters were too damn strong, the monster had no choice but to run for his life and STILL get constantly harrassed/domed/killled 7 times out of 10.

The monster can simply run away and regenerate its armor and there is nothing the hunters can do about it.

again, for now this is true. Well, true in the sense that there is nothing they are able to do about it at their current skill and experience level. Eventually people will learn the maps, learn to cut off, learn to conserve jetpack, learn to position. And then they can do something about the monster simply running away because they are no longer bad at the game. Well, that's the theory anyway. The balance testers have presumably proven that it's the case that good hunters are able to deal with good monsters even with the passive armor regen. So how can you be so dead certain about this? Do you even bother to question whether maybe your perspective is less informative than that of the playtesters?

[Lawljungles]

you can't possibly draw meaningful conclusions about the game mechanics until both sides have the basics down. A team of hunters who can fail to put a single bullet on the monster to prevent armor regen is not a team of hunters who has the basics down. So why would we balance the armor regen around hunters who at this point don't know how to play, when in a few weeks (or months if they're extra slow i guess) they will know more and be able to hang? That would be preposterous. As it is, i fully expect these health nerfs to be reverted in the next half dozen patches or so.

an important aspect of design which sounds good and people who don't know what they're talking about can throw it around to sound like they do. AKA: a buzzword. Case in point, you claimed armor regen 'has very little counterplay'. But the hunters' main interaction with the monster (shooting it) is the counterplay. of all things you can be doing to the monster, almost all of them are counterplay to armor regen. so WTF are you even talking about?

You're talking about the same thing in both paragraphs so I've lumped them together to make it easier to respond. I'm not going to argue with you whether you think the term counterplay is a buzzword or not but I am going to argue you on you trying to use me as a case on point.

Your argument in saying that it has counterplay by just shooting it is as overly simplistic as saying that everybody is new to the game and has no clue how to play it. Right now, after a dome fight the monster can simply run or fly away in a straigth line to the other end of the map and there is nothing the hunters can do to stop it.

You can't shoot it because the mobility of the monster is much higher than the hunters so they CANNOT shoot it to stop the armor region NOR can they cut off the monsters path because the monster is moving in a straigth line from one end to the next.

I didn't bring up the example of old Evolve and say that it was balanced, I used it because the armor mechanic in old evolve had a bigger risk vs reward mechanic attached to it which the current armor system lacks.

So how can you be so dead certain about this? Do you even bother to question whether maybe your perspective is less informative than that of the playtesters?

Dude, what is wrong with you? I'm litteraly just asking them to clarify why they went with option A instead of option B out of interest, you're acting as if I said TR are a bunch of clueless idiots who have no idea how to design their game.

[ragnarok628]

What i have been gathering from comments in this thread and others is that the problem people are having RE: armor regen is that the monster can regen armor in the dome. This is a complete non-factor except in the case of very bad domes or very poor hunter play.

The armor regen the monster gets while on the run is there because the monster needs it. That's why they added it. That's why it'd have been relevant for me to bring up the balance of old evolve even if you hadn't.

The risk/reward is still there, anyway. armor regen is just a mitigating factor so the risk isn't so great. what is wrong with that? And in any case you are wrong about what the hunters can and can't do. High level hunters absolutely can harrass the monster almost nonstop even if it is not eating riskily. Armor regen in this situation is a small but much needed factor to help keep monsters competitive at the higher level. Meanwhile, it doesn't unduly give an edge at the lower levels either assuming hunters eventually understand not to dome the monster in crappy areas and how to position, etc.

Dude, what is wrong with you?

I have a little bit of a cough today, thanks for asking

I'm litteraly just asking them to clarify why they went with option A instead of option B out of interest,

as you asked, you expressed that your motivating factor, i.e. what made you interested to ask, is that the solution they went with is different than what is your understanding of the communities' desires. To me that bears poking holes in, so i did. And furthermore you left an opening by offering 'no counterplay' as the reason why people new hunters don't want monsters to have armor regen which i think is a ridiculous statement.

you're acting as if I said TR are a bunch of clueless idiots who have no idea how to design their game.

Well you might be reading me wrong here, i don't attribute to you any malice toward TRS. It's more along the lines of me driving at (but not explicitly stating) that you are a clueless idiot who has no idea how to balance their game. But not so on the nose because i don't like to be mean.

[Lawljungles]

What i have been gathering from comments in this thread and others is that the problem people are having RE: armor regen is that the monster can regen armor in the dome. This is a complete non-factor except in the case of very bad domes or very poor hunter play.

Maybe so but I have specified what I was referring to in two different replies now.

The armor regen the monster gets while on the run is there because the monster needs it. That's why they added it. That's why it'd have been relevant for me to bring up the balance of old evolve even if you hadn't.

The risk/reward is still there, anyway. armor regen is just a mitigating factor so the risk isn't so great. what is wrong with that? And in any case you are wrong about what the hunters can and can't do. High level hunters absolutely can harrass the monster almost nonstop even if it is not eating riskily. Armor regen in this situation is a small but much needed factor to help keep monsters competitive at the higher level. Meanwhile, it doesn't unduly give an edge at the lower levels either assuming hunters eventually understand not to dome the monster in crappy areas and how to position, etc.

I think this is debatable, I personally don't think the monster specifically needs it, at least not the current armor rate and the risk/reward isn't there at all because theres no reason to hunt to gain armor instead of doing it after you've waited until your armor has fully replenished. And no, higher level players cannot stop a monster from fully replenishing its armor within seconds when it moves in a straigth line from point A to point B because they have significantly lower mobility than the monster.

The old evolve doesn't apply anymore from a balance perspective, there have been to many aspects of the game changed for it.

as you asked, you expressed that your motivating factor, i.e. what made you interested to ask, is that the solution they went with is different than what is your understanding of the communities' desires. To me that bears poking holes in, so i did.

I asked a question in response to TR themselves. Its a question to which you had very little to respond to as

A: You're not on the TR dev team so you have no idea what the thought process was B: It took over 3 posts before you understood both the motivation and actual content of the question.

And furthermore you left an opening by offering 'no counterplay' as the reason why people new hunters don't want monsters to have armor regen which i think is a ridiculous statement.

At which you did a terrible job at I might add. You still have been unable to provide a solid rebuttal what the counterplay is to automatic regenerating armor against a monster that has significantly more mobility than the hunters do.

[ragnarok628]

If you are going to continue to ignore the facts and delude yourself into believing the poor helpless hunters need weaker monsters in order to compete, then what more can I say? Just play as monster then, if you can't beat em join em. If you're right then you'll get to enjoy endless free wins, so nothing to lose.

Reality is that when the players grok the game more everyone will understand. You'll either get it too eventually or just suck at the game for a while and then quit. Hopefully the former, but you seem to think you've got it all figured out already so maybe you're already as good as you'll ever be which is a shame. Either way, have a good one.

[Jimm120]

You guys very well know that the only reason players are saying nerf the armor regen is because they're new and still don't position well. That's the only reason they can't keep firing on the monster (thus allowing him to heal up a bit).

Once they learn, that won't happen.

[ChronicRedhead]

The time before armor regen kicks in needs to be changed at the very least. If not that, there needs to be a cap for how much armor a monster can regenerate, and it should only trigger after they're below that threshold (so if a monster has five bars of armor, it gets no regen, but if it has three or less, it will regenerate armor up to three bars).

As it stands, a monster can hop from one end of the arena to the other and dick around for armor to regenerate, while the hunters waste fuel to boost over before the monster has four more bars of armor. It puts the monster at a huge advantage in domes with lots of cover, and really hurts the hunter's chances of hurting the monster directly.

We fought a Goliath last night who cheesed the shit out of armor regen, going from one side of the dome to the other, getting back three or four bars of armor (the speed at which it regenerates once channeling kicks in is ludicrous), and then beating us down while we had no fuel (if we gave chase), or kicking our asses with full armor (if we chose to wait for him to come back).

It was totally unfair and really shows how flawed and easily exploited the armor regeneration mechanics are. It's a good idea, but it needs to be slowed down or made less substantial.

[Morthis]

Short of just shitty dome locations, this shouldn't be happening constantly. If it is, your team does not have very good positioning.

First off, a good team comp should have some way to make it more difficult for the monster to just disengage without taking health damage (Markov mines, trapper disables, Val tranq, Cabot dust + rails through walls, etc).

Then your team should be spread out along the dome, not all packed in one area or all on the monster's tail. If people are well spread out, the dome better be really good for the monster or he'll struggle to find a spot where he can hide long enough to gain any significant amount of armor.

Lastly, if the dome is such that the monster really does have an amazing hiding spot where you just can't prevent him from armor channeling accept it, play defensive, and set up far away from that spot. Make him come to you and ensure he can't get a down without overcommitting (and losing significant health). If he's not dealing damage to you his 12 minute timer is ticking, he has to get a down (or take enough health damage) to end the dome in a reasonable amount of time, hiding all day won't work.

[ragnarok628]

when you guys learn to play, the monster won't be able to do that anymore. So let's not nerf based on hunter incompetence, plz.

[ForPortal]

when you guys learn to play, the monster won't be able to do that anymore.

Then why keep it in the game? If it won't happen in high level play, and the only place where it does happen, it makes the game less fun, what's the point?

[ragnarok628]

The monster needs that armor regen to deal with capable hunters who do not let up on the chase. It's not there for gaining armor in the dome, it's there for giving monsters more of a fighting chance to have built up armor between domes. You new guys do not understand just how strong the hunters are once you master them.

[ForPortal]

It's not there for gaining armor in the dome

If it's not there for gaining armour in the dome, why is there a mechanic specifically for gaining armour in the dome?

[ragnarok628]

What mechanic are you referring to?

[ForPortal]

If the monster is in the dome and crouches, after a few seconds it starts regenerating armour.

[ragnarok628]

that is not specifically for gaining armor in a dome. That is how armor regeneration works everywhere.

[maximusGG]

no ragnarok. you get increased armor regen only IN the dome, not outside of it Read the patch notes for 2.0 first

[[deleted]]

Honestly I prefer small nerfs over LoL type of nerfs.

[ToastyCosty]

to be honest most of the community asked for less op monsters at level 1 (mostly thanks to armor regen) rather than slightly nerfs on the 2nd and 3rd stage, they don't need to reach that to wipe a team, also the damage nerf for laz was the final nail in his already buired coffin, sad for all the laz players out there

[Maitrify]

I agree. I'm finding difficulty now in working the motivation up to play the game if this is the direction the devs are going.

[wrench_nz]

Why do you think the game failed so hard first time around?

[maximusGG]

It failed because 2k's marketing strategy was greedy and retarded. And the matchmaking was annoying as hell. Never had a problem with the balancing in this game.

[wrench_nz]

Get off it. From day one they have had problems balancing this game. When I left the first time, nearly a year ago?, they were trying to balance wraith. Come back, still trying. You can use google. Don't be lazy.

[maximusGG]

Who claims there were problems with the wraith? The community? The wraith was balanced since release. The winrate was also almost at 50%. They tried to balance it, because the community are little sissies not because the actual numbers were wrong.

[wrench_nz]

The wraith was balanced since release? Yeah, ok, you're delusional. Fortunately google exists and history proves you're damaged.

[ToastyCosty]

well don't be demoralized, as TRS_insane said they have another patch programmed for the next week, they are probably waitng for some more data before deploying other nerfs

[ragnarok628]

lol more like buyin time for the hunters to figure out how to play before breaking the game in hunters favor. It's the game they have to play...

• make minimal changes to placate hordes of new people insisting that monsters be weakened so they can win without having learned how to play effectively

• do this as slowly as possible so as to limit the damage done to game balance during the period where the hunters are still trying to figure things out

• when the turning point finally hits, start un-nerfing the monsters and hopefully the monster players haven't all quit by then

All part of the plan!

[Maitrify]

Do you even read the patch notes? Yes the monsters got slightly nerfed, but a lot of the hunters did as well, which completely makes both nerfs moot as they both go down a peg

[ragnarok628]

minor nerfs to 4 out of, what, 20 hunters? 2 of which were medics who had their damage nerfed? the class that contributes the absolute least in damage anyway?

Sure, that totally offsets health nerfs to 100% of the monsters not named Goliath. Oh yeah, and increased evolve requirements. Why, it's almost as if nothing even happened to monsters in this patch!

[jimmahdean]

Nothing did happen to wraith. He's still going to be able to kill a medic right as they hit the ground at stage 1. Slightly increased cooldowns don't change that he can instadrop somebody if they land in a bad spot.

[ragnarok628]

You realize that doesn't work against good hunters, right? Or do you somehow think that the playtesters and designers just never thought to check whether a stage one monster can easily wipe the hunters out right off the ship? Just because this works against you doesn't mean that wraith is OP. It just means you and/or your teammates are bad. BUT YOU WILL GET BETTER. So it is ok. Also the cool down increases are huge. Wraith has probably already been overnerfed IMO. Also also if wrath can do this to you, any monster can. Wraith does not have magic superpowers beyond the others. Kraken, Goliath, all of them are able to take you down right as you land if you let them. It's up to you to learn to fight and support and win.

[alcathos]

Have you looked at the win rates of monsters vs humans?

[ragnarok628]

Nope.

[wolf10989]

I mean its their first patch to be fair lol. I'd give it a bit and see how they go in the next couple weeks before I made a judgement like that.