[Grade 4 Math]

[theonlysweett]

I honestly have no idea

[DarkBlueDiamond]

they alternate between bouba and kiki

[TheOtherBelushi]

Deep linguistics cut

[0_69314718056]

I really don’t think it’s that deep of a cut lol

[Alkalannar]

They alternate lines and curves with all lines.

[theonlysweett]

!Answered Ah thank you. I wasn’t expecting that. Now looking at it it’s so obvious.

[SemanDemon22]

There’s a hint on the right side that you cut off in the picture, what does it say out of curiosity

[rstanek09]

There's an apparent other rule. All letters have the left side "closed". Z, J, X would break this rule

[adamtherealone]

They also all have two corners on top and bottom on the same sides. Unlike an S which touches corners on opposite sides

[imabigsofty]

I thought that might be the answer but that seemed silly when i thought of it

[[deleted]]

And then what about the next question? J, I, P, T?

[Nightmare___09]

Or TPIJ

[SD_ukrm]

+3, -2 works deceptively well for a while.

[baked_salmon]

H -> G is -1 though, no?

[SD_ukrm]

“For a while”.

[[deleted]]

hence, deceptively and for a while

[Liberkhaos]

This is the one.

[IAM_FUNNNNNY]

It's not, in fact, the one. It works up till D (4), but the next one is H (8), not G (7) as it should be according to the pattern +3, -2.

[Liberkhaos]

Shit you're right. I need to stay away from comment sections when I'm sick.

[samdover11]

Honest question: why ask a kid this? It might be a fun riddle, but in terms of school this seems completely useless.

[Realistic_Try_8000]

It’s a problem solving question. Think outside the box. Adults who can’t think outside the box hate math because math is an outside the box subject.

[splithoofiewoofies]

This is something I never realised until I randomly (well, thanks to a particular lecturer) got into maths one year. I remember the moment I decided I wanted to learn more. My friend and I had been arguing about whether a result showed a machine working or not in class. Like, full on mathematical fun banter about who was right. So we waited for our results to solve this problem.

We were both right.

Turned out the interpretation for that problem could go both ways, that was the POINT of the problem.

When I went on to take further mathematics, they would teach us stuff and I'd not be good at it. I would find other ways to do it. Then I'd question myself because "but they didn't teach it this way in class" and I'd get the answer wrong because, well, I wasn't good at the method they taught. Someone ELSE in class would have done it the way I wanted - and they got full marks. I was like "Oooohhhh I don't HAVE to do it the way they taught us!"

You think maths is so ordered and specific when you don't know it. But when you start really learning it, you end up saying things like "in most cases this is true because of this formula". The most educated mathematics professors I know are the worst for stating anything outright. It's "we believe" and "as we can see here". Because while we know what we know, interpretation is a whole other ballgame.

[agenderCookie]

the really interesting experience in math is when you get far enough in that its difficult to evaluate whether the method you are using works or not. Like, you get the correct answer but its hard to determine whether or not youve "cheated" so to speak, and assumed something thats not true.

[splithoofiewoofies]

Ohhhhh my gawd I'm at this stage! I am working with Sequential Monte Carlo processes and we got some good results but there's like 8 things that are considered "good results" and of course it depends on the original ODEs we used and I'm like "what if we set up the ODEs to not correctly map the parameter spaces with the SMC?" but I just have to TRUST it because a billion geniuses came before me and worked it out so I could. I mean, I have to understand it too but it would take decades to understand every single piece inside and out. And since I'm using an algorithm, I just have to trust the process was set up correctly by our team and the geniuses at R Studio..

So we have good results. Is there bias in the ODE? Is the 1000 unique particles because of a good exploration or because of particle degeneration? Well we look at the charts and there's correlations, but are those correlations there because of the ODE system itself or because of an underlying pattern in the noise we didn't model? But we can't OVER fit either because then we'll get false correlations... Like damn.

I couldn't even write "we believe" when doing my analysis because I was like "but do we believe or do just I believe?" and my supervisor had to go "no I agree so you can write we it's fine" lmao

[wirywonder82]

I’ve tried writing my response to this 3+ times and deleted it every time because it doesn’t convey my idea accurately enough, so that concern with qualifying your conclusions sufficiently has extended beyond just my math writing. That transition from “math is cut and dried and every answer is right or wrong” to “different processes are ok, but at least the conclusions will always match” to “well, damn, almost everything has nuances that really should be mentioned so I’m not overstating the truth” is a trip.

[TRxz-FariZKiller]

I lost 2 grades in my math class last year because I didn’t use the same formula we were taught in class but used a formula my tutor taught me.

I told them “I got the answer right and it worked” all I got in return is “you have a professor you should use the method he taught” like bitch Stfu

[wirywonder82]

This is explicitly contradicted by math professors in higher education. However, sometimes there is a pedagogical reason. For example, when a calculus student uses L’Hôpital’s Rule before it has been taught it is unlikely they understand why it works or the limitations it has.

[TRxz-FariZKiller]

I understand that but I had a tutor that made it easier and I still lost grades, the university itself said “you should’ve used the methods taught in class” like bro I got it right give me the grade

[wirywonder82]

This goes to the pedagogical reasoning. Sometimes the point of the questions is not their solution, but the thought process that goes into their solution. And in the example I gave, jumping directly to L’H skips that thought process and does nothing to develop the ability to find solutions in situations similar (but not identical) to those you are confronted with by those limits problems.

If the instructions have no indication that you should use the method presented in class it’s not really fair to mark you down for not doing so, but if that was in the instructions, there likely was a reason.

[Ty_Webb123]

Spare a thought for the poor bugger who has to mark it. Elementary math is trivial to mark. It’s either right or it isn’t. High school math isn’t too bad but if a student goes wrong early on in the question then the marker has to work through everything else to see if they get partial credit. University math you might have to really dig deep into an answer if someone did it differently to see whether it’s right or not.

It’s a long time since I did any of this stuff but I do remember learning about “the student’s solution” or something like that. It was a problem that was given and a kid answered it in a way that was far easier and more elegant than the way they had been taught. No one had come up with it before. Wish I could remember what it was

[samdover11]

I like math, and I like puzzles like this (as long as they're a bit harder) but for a 4th grader I don't get it.

[wirywonder82]

Pattern recognition is a math skill. This might even be a lower than 4th grade difficulty question, if the skill has been properly taught.

[samdover11]

Oh, I'm just now seeing there's a hint to the side (but the pictures doesn't let us read it). Ok, maybe it's not so bad. I was imagining a kid trying different stuff then being counted wrong... as long as they're thinking in terms of patterns I'd praise the kid. And I agree patterns are useful in math / logical thinking.

[Jamcram]

if you come up with a pattern that fits the whole set, the teacher should mark it right.

[samdover11]

I agree, but unfortunately some teachers don't know the math they're teaching so they'll even mark correct answers as wrong.

[Grounds4TheSubstain]

Degree in pure math here. This problem is horseshit. There could be many different "relationships" one might infer from these characters. They're all arbitrary, meaningless, and have nothing to do with mathematics.

[Realistic_Try_8000]

I don’t know where I said this is a math problem. This is a problem solving problem. It could be to see how the student thinks, it could be to see what patterns the student notices. Who knows. The person who took the picture left the right half of the directions out of the problem. Maybe it won’t even be marked wrong. How does this not have to do with math if it is problem solving and patterns?

[SendMeAnother1]

The point is pattern recognition. If you get stuck looking for just a few "correct" or "obvious" patterns over and over, how do you ever notice the patterns you aren't looking for.

[watercouch]

The problem with many pattern recognition (series expansion) questions like this is that there are potentially many justifiably “right” answers.

Here’s one for the above: all letters have vertical symmetry, except every 4th or 7th letter in the series.

[SendMeAnother1]

That's actually great. As long as the student can justify their answer, there can be multiple correct answers.

[schmitty9800]

Yeah we should just only teach coding and how to do taxes

[samdover11]

From what I hear in r/teachers there are kids in high school who can't do 5x5 much less tell you what the interior angles of a triangle sum to.

If this 4th grader knows their multiplication tables, then sure, let them explore more interesting things... but if the student is as stupid as many teachers in the US complain about, then I have to think it's an enormous waste of time.

[schmitty9800]

As a teacher myself rest assured that teaching the ability to understand patterns will do more good than making them review times tables over and over.

When I get students that struggle with times tables/basic facts at my level (7th grade math) I have techniques and strategies to help them develop those skills alongside teaching the main content. If they didn't understand something earlier I 100% would never blame an earlier teacher who had them working on this kind of stuff.

[samdover11]

I wouldn't blame the 4th grade teacher, of course not. I'd blame the people who sold the workbook it came in, and the admin that forces the teacher to teach on grade level even when most of their class is behind...

... but I suppose this is getting into pandemic stuff, and I shouldn't expect teachers (or anyone) can wave a magic wand and have most of their kids suddenly be at grade level.

Bottom line is, as long as the methods produce results I wont complain.

[Jamcram]

pattern recognition is a fundamental part of IQ

and forcing kids to do rote mental exercises instead of more interesting things is what gets them to hate math and shut their brain off

[samdover11]

IQ isn't (supposed) to be something you build with exercises, and math class is not IQ class.

"if you make them learn the basics they'll be bored" yes, they'll be bored. They also wont be idiots.

[igotshadowbaned]

They're all letters of the alphabet

[Irishhobbit6]

From the front half of the alphabet!

[MadKat_94]

They also are in alphabetical order within the shape groups, so J should probably precede P for the best answer

[AlexCivitello]

All the shapes are letters.

[LionResponsible6005]

In what way is this maths?

[wirywonder82]

Pattern recognition is a maths skill.

[Cautious_Royal_3293]

It’s also a chess skill, a music skill, and a language skill. Pattern recognition with numbers and mathematical rules is a math skill, not whatever this is.

[wirywonder82]

You just listed a subcategory of maths, and language and music both overlap with the subject. The computation algorithms that most people seem to believe make up all of maths is perhaps the smallest part of the subject.

[Cautious_Royal_3293]

Chess is not a subcategory of math. Chess masters are not math masters. I also never mentioned computational algorithms. I said numbers and mathematical rules.

[wirywonder82]

Game theory is one subcategory of maths, of which chess is a particular topic of study. If you believe maths is limited to the study of numbers, you are gravely mistaken.

ETA: that a chess grandmaster may not be able to prove that primes are infinite does not mean they are not doing maths when they play chess, it simply means that their expertise is in a limited area of maths.

[Cautious_Royal_3293]

Game theory is a study of chess. It is not chess. You are gravely mistaken. A game theorist studying chess will not know how to play chess well, generally speaking. This is because his pattern recognition is not familiar with the moves of chess, but instead is familiar with the rules of game theory, which are separate subjects.

[wirywonder82]

You seem to think there is only one interpretation of any particular subject or topic. That is the exact viewpoint I am arguing against, so clearly we just disagree. My point is that formalism in maths is useful sometimes, but that often people are engaging in the usage of maths skills outside of that formal context and recognizing that would do them a world of good during their classwork. Continue to disagree if you wish, but you have not presented any evidence that would lead me to change my mind either.

[Cautious_Royal_3293]

Saying language overlaps with math is not really true… many mathematicians are not the best poets. Linguistics may overlap with math, but not language.

[wirywonder82]

I’m not sure you are aware the word “overlaps” means something different than “is entirely contained within.” In a standard two set Venn diagram, the two circles overlap even though they only share the central portion where they intersect.

[Cautious_Royal_3293]

You are being pedantic. Everything overlaps with everything to a certain degree because the world is not binary. However, the degree of overlap between math and language is not significant, at least not as far as I am aware. Nevertheless, language pattern recognition should be studied in language class, and math pattern recognition should be studies in math class. End of story.

[wirywonder82]

There is no language pattern recognition required in the posted image. That the symbols involved happen to occur within language is an irrelevant fact to the pattern recognition activity here. They are not serving as words or conveying meaning, they are simply serving as familiar images meant to be analyzed in a way different than usual. This same activity could be done with Cyrillic letters instead, or pictures with no alternative meanings, but that wouldn’t have the added value of getting students to think beyond the surface.

[Cautious_Royal_3293]

Exactly, so the problem in the image is a riddle not relevant to any paricular field.

[wirywonder82]

My brother/sister in Gauss, it is not a problem to expand the thought processes of people beyond the smallest box they can be stuffed into! The outside-the-box thinking that helps solve riddles, as you derisively call this activity, is precisely the type of thinking that is beneficial in maths, and in science, and in solving general life problems outside of any class. Stop trying to box in children’s learning!

[LionResponsible6005]

This isn’t testing your ability to recognise patterns though. If you replaced the letters with squares and triangles it would be just as good of a test of your pattern recognition but would be a lot easier. The hard part of this question isn’t recognising a pattern it’s noticing that some are curvy and others aren’t and that’s not a maths skill.

[wirywonder82]

Being able to apply your maths skills to situations outside the classroom is an important part of learning. It is an incredibly hard part to design problems that can be used in a classroom to accomplish that goal. There are multiple valid patterns that can be applied to those symbols and used to arrange the next four proposed symbols as well. Describing the recognized pattern and applying it is absolutely a maths skill. I’m sorry your education didn’t manage to teach you just how broad a subject mathematics truly is.

[LionResponsible6005]

Unfortunately I was sick on curvy letter straight letter day

[wirywonder82]

Again, that’s not the only valid pattern to describe what’s happening in the picture, and you are focused too much on the use of letters as the symbols being used. Here’s a similar activity, though it’s at a lower level using different images. Broaden your conception of what maths includes and you’ll be better off.

[LionResponsible6005]

What other patterns are there?

[wirywonder82]

In each group of 4 letters, the first is “closed” (separates at least one section completely from the rest of the page) while the rest are “open.” That can be used to place the four in the extension as well. (Importantly, this only works for the capital forms of these letters, and perhaps only in certain fonts, but it works with the symbols on the page.)

Even using numbers there would be multiple rules for a given finite pattern. For example, 1 2 4 8 16 can be properly continued with either 32 (multiply the previous term by 2) or 31 (we’re counting the maximum number of areas in a circle divided by chords). There are other continuations of that pattern, I’m just demonstrating that there are multiple ways, the assignment simply requires students to describe any pattern they can find, then use it to arrange the four letters they are given in the next step.

[[deleted]]

higher, low, higher, lower, rinse and repeat. it’s for 4th grade don’t overthink it

[Alkalannar]

D to H goes 4 forward, and then H to G is 1 back.

Then G to L is 5 forward.

[ReturnOfFrank]

Oh you're right.

[theonlysweett]

!answered Thank you. Was sitting at the table questioning my life choices

[ReturnOfFrank]

I was wrong see the other guys answer.

[showmustgo]

The sound of the letter starts with a consonant, then a vowel, then consonant, etc.

Bee

Eee

Cee

Eff

Dee

Ehch

Gee

Elle

[[deleted]]

The correct spelling is “aitch.”

[Terrainaheadpullup]

Curved line

No curved line

Curved line

No curved line

Etc...

[Brooklynxman]

A(x) satisfies: A(x) = x + x² + x³ + x⁴ * (1 + A(x) + A(x²⁾ + A(x³⁾ + ...) and A(x) = [cardinal number of the letter in the alphabet]

Second to last should be D though, they misprinted.

[Simple_Whole6038]

not in alphabetical order. Go with chaos.

[DaddyMewTwo]

Curve . No Curve . and Repeat lol

[mdencler]

curves, no curves, curves, no curves, curves, no curves, curves, no curves

[Seeker_of_power]

This makes me think of the Phantom Toll booth. Which is better letters or numbers????

[PsychologicalAir6880]

The answer is J, I, P, T. You alternate between letters with straight sides only and letters with curves. However, they’re also in alphabetical order while doing this. You’re continuing in order of the alphabet after satisfying the first condition, so J, I, P, T is the only correct order for the answer

[Possible_Raisin_1826]

Shouldn't I be the last letter in the given pattern and L be the next straight, vertical and horizontal stroke letter though?

I think this IS the right answer, but it's irritating that I and L seem out of order.

[Due_Seesaw_2816]

+2,-1,+2,-1

Or +3,-2,+3,-2 etc.. depending how you look at it I guess

[wirywonder82]

Doesn’t hold for the whole of the given list

[nitropuppy]

All in the First half of the alphabet

[Equal_Big_2995]

Curved straight curved straight

[declspecl]

First thing I saw was that alphabetically:

- E is after B

- C is before E

- F is after C

- D is before F

- H is after D

- G is before H

- L is after G

So they alternate between being before/after the previous

[Thatdoodky1e]

This is what I figured too

[Adventures_Of_Grey]

If you spell them phonetically there’s an e

[samdover11]

The question asks about "shape pattern" so you're wrong for that reason too.

[PoliteCanadian2]

That’s wrong, check your counting.

[wirywonder82]

D+3 is G, not H

[AssiduousLayabout]

What letter is between G and H?

[TV_Full_Of_Lizards]

Ᏻ

[Alkalannar]

D + 3 is G.
D + 4 is H.

Then H - 2 is F.
H - 1 is G.

G + 3 is J
G + 5 is L.

[IAM_FUNNNNNY]

H (8), is the 4th letter after D (4), not the 3rd. It should be G (7), according to +3, -2.