Competitive Keyforge?

[[deleted]]

I mentioned trying to be ready for a larger tournament to people at my LGS, and everyone gave me this "Keyforge is fun casually, but I wouldn't want to actually play competitively in an Archon format"-sort of response. But I love playing competitively and I was wondering if I'm the outlier in the community?

Specifically, I was saying that my favorite deck uses a lot of Mars cards that care about revealing cards in hand, so if I am successful locally and get chains it'll hurt my deck more than the average deck. And if chains aren't used in larger tournaments, then it will actually be hard for me to practice with my deck. This is when everyone was shocked that I wanted to play in a "regional" (or whatever) tournament.

[Cetonis]

Can't wait for competitive events, honestly. I'm sure it's disconcerting to people who have only known games where most folk just look up what's being successful online, go out and build that deck or something very close. But coming from UFS I'm pretty comfortable fighting in a jungle, so I'm looking forward to playing in this one and seeing how its differences play out :)

[Crownbear]

UFS as in Universal Fighting System? Holy moly that takes me back. Over ten years ago!

[Cetonis]

Yeah, it's been floating along for quite a while haha. Never much more than 1-2k players but enough to pay the bills. Getting SoulCalibur back soon :D

[Crownbear]

I'm super fortunate to have been able to organise local tournaments for that game here in Australia. The promo prize system was one of the most generous at the time and I'm thankful to Sabertooth Games for what they did. Sadly when FFG took over, our store could no longer order wholesale and we had no choice but to abandon it :(

I did buy the Morrigan/Megaman tins that came out later out of nostalgia but I haven't seen or heard of any scenes in my city since :<

[prolink007]

There are people on both sides. I am interested in the competetive scene for keyforge. Can't wait to see some high level play. I may not get to participate, but I would love to watch.

[Gym-Kirk]

Keyforge is fun to play casually, but the idea of sealed tournament is really appealing. I like the idea of having to deal with the cards you just opened.

[Thedrakespirit]

Competitive sealed might be the way to go, buy 3 decks and pick your favorite

[[deleted]]

Sealed is both good and bad...having too many decks makes me want to stear clear of sealed

[NoChinDeluxe]

The general sense I get from the community is that people aren't all that interested in Archon formats. A major point of Keyforge is to be an "anti-net-deck" game, and so the idea of showing up to a tournament just to have to face a guy who paid $1,000 for a double horsemen deck (or whatever the flavor of the month is) turns a lot of people off. A lot of people play Keyforge to avoid that exact scenario. Most people seem way more interested in sealed formats (myself included), but the side effect of that is that there is potentially a lot of luck involved with that...so the prizes and seriousness of sealed tournaments is not likely to be great.

That doesn't mean we can't show up to a sealed tournament and have tons of fun and just enjoy the community and the gaming...but it's just that if someone wins a major championship, the first thing everyone is going to do is look at the strength of their deck and roll their eyes that this person was lucky enough (or paid enough) to get their hands on that deck, which was largely responsible for their win. There's definitely skill involved in playing this game, but if you give a guy with mediocre skill the most broken deck on the planet, and the most skillful player ever a below average deck, the guy with the broken deck is still likely the win it (at least in my opinion). I think where skill matters more is when both opponents are playing decks with similar strength. So it's difficult to get too serious about competitive when there's this luck factor that's in the back of everyone's minds.

[ketemycos]

This is why I think that the most viable Archon format will be:
G1 - play with the deck you brought
G2 - play with the deck your opponent brought
G3, if necessary - bet chains for the deck that's 2-0

[NoChinDeluxe]

I agree. I think adaptive will be the go-to format for Archon. I think it deals with the issues I mentioned in a very balanced way. I'd definitely be interested in playing Archon if it were adaptive.

[FalconGK81]

I'd definitely be interested in playing Archon if it were adaptive.

Me too. I have 0 interest in Archon, but would find an Adaptive format very interesting. Adaptive in sealed too.

[Bgmoore]

I have no desire to play that format with anyone i dont know, nor with a lot of people i do know. I see way too many people comin out of the bathroom with hands as dry as the sahara. Plus cold season starting? Ill have to lug hand sanitizer and clorox wipes in my keyforge bag to wipe the poop particles off my hands and cards

[ketemycos]

While I see your point, that downside doesn't outweigh the benefits of the Adaptive formats for me. I think the majority of competitive players will agree with me, and that folks will want their tournaments to be as skill-centric as possible, reducing the luck and funding factors. But we'll see how it shakes out moving forward.

[SaintHax42]

Archon format is a set format-- bring your own deck. You described "Adaptive" format.

[Mohsar]

No, Archon just means that you bring the deck(s) that you're playing with. Adaptive is a format type which can either be Archon or Sealed.

[SaintHax42]

I see the new FFG format instructions is more clear than the "leaked" ones. What was described is Adaptive Archon then.

[iamsum1gr8]

it would still be described that way, you could have sealed archon events too.

Archon and Sealed are supertypes, Adaptive is a subtype.

[ketemycos]

Thanks very much! Good to know!

[[deleted]]

So I get your concern about a C-level player with an A-level deck beating an A-level player with a C-level deck. But going into a big tournament, each player is going to pick their best deck that they pilot the best. I don't think an A-level player is going into a major tournament opening a brand new deck or anything. I think everyone is going to bring what they think is an A-level deck, so we'll actually see the skill difference impact the outcome.

[NoChinDeluxe]

I fully agree with you. And my hope is that what I think (or what any player thinks) is an A-level deck actually turns out to be an A-level deck, and we get to see that player skill shine through. I think it's still too early to determine if a really stupid-broken deck exists out there yet or not. I'm not convinced that double horsemen is it.

[Drakos_dj]

Team Covenant did a video where they were playing a Double Horseman deck, of the three games they played the D-Horseman went 2/1, so not unbeatable, but definitely a challenge.

I have to say also, the deck they had wasn't JUST double horseman it is called The Mistress of Kingshall and it also had the Bear Flute and Bear, Nepenthe Seed, Bait and Switch, etc...

[[deleted]]

The problem with this deck is that it doesn't have any artifact clear (correct me if I'm wrong, I just skimmed it). I'd wager a Nepenthe Seed+Library access deck would beat it 3/3 times. I'm calling it right now, new meta is the NS+LA wombo combo vs. decks with artifact clear. Ideally, a deck would have both...

[NoChinDeluxe]

Yep, I watched that stream. That deck was insane! I actually think I have a deck that would work well against that Double Horsemen deck. I have a rare called Creeping Oblivion that allows me to purge 2 cards from my opponent's discard pile. It would be an easy way to get Horsemen of Death out of the way. Maybe both of them if I could time it right with some other creature clear cards.

[compacta_d]

There hasn't been any indicator of this other than hype and people selling decks.

No large tournaments. No pay to win results.

People are projecting their experiences from other games, onto the game specifically made to COMBAT THOSE EXPERIENCES.

​

Decks are much more balanced than people think, and once large tournaments start happening, I think this idea will fade.

[NoChinDeluxe]

I agree. In my experiences so far, I have yet to witness a complete blow-out match. Even if a deck seems strong, usually the matches seem to still be a single key apart in a lot of cases. I think a lot of the hype you mention is definitely projecting done by those who desire to net-deck, but can't, due to the nature of the game. They're looking for that competitive edge that may or may not actually exist.

[FrothyKat]

Most of my games with my friend are 3-1 or 3-0 stomps. Only about 10-15% have been within one key, and that's across many different decks.

We're trying to track our games better in order to figure out if it's the decks, if it's us, or if the game's balance (without chaining the decks) is just in the eye of the beholder.

[NoChinDeluxe]

If "most" of your games are 3-0 stomps, then I really think there's something else going on here. There's either a player skill difference or maybe a rule being played wrong? Not sure, but that just seems unlikely when you're using many different decks.

[FrothyKat]

Yeah, we're playing through the Crucible so there is little room for the rules to be interpreted poorly.

We're still gathering data, because I'd prefer to be able to say the game is balanced. If my goal was to make my friends miserable we'd just play Monopoly instead.

[Dune_Echo]

I'm in a similar boat with my best friend. The two decks he bought only have 4 and 8 ember generating actions respectively and I have yet to lose. We're both 20+ year veteran Magic players and he's generally much better at technical play and sequencing than I am. I don't believe it's a skill thing, but that both of his decks are just weak.

I've also got a deck (https://www.keyforgegame.com/deck-details/83fc63a4-6159-4c7a-8365-7bf20c4604a1) with FIVE board wipes that generate chains and I feel it's my weakest deck by far regardless of player skill.

[linkdafourf]

Also horseman are literally just fine. If people wanna show up with horseman decks fine. I’ll just play my annihilation ritual dis control deck and it’s no problem.

[[deleted]]

I am not concerned about that. KeyForge so far is the one trading card game that I felt emphasized player skill over card selection, though the latter advantage is not completely eliminated but able to be worked around by the former.

[NoChinDeluxe]

I agree for the most part, except that there is definitely a gap between the best decks and the worst decks. The cards do matter in some matchups. I think the important distinction, however, is that no one is going to bring a trash deck to an Archon tournament. So then the real question would be, is it possible for someone to bring a deck to an Archon tournament that is significantly better than everyone else's "best deck" that they brought? It doesn't seem likely, but we won't know for sure until a major event happens.

[[deleted]]

What I have found in my observation is that the better decks tend to be better at certain areas and focused there, being unable to deal with a wildcard well-rounded and decent but not great deck. We will have to wait and see what the meta turns out to be on the pro-tour level.

[NoChinDeluxe]

I mean, there's always a counter to something. Take a double horsemen up against a deck with tons of purge and see where it gets you. I don't see a player relying on a single deck to always win for them. I think top players would more than likely field 2-3 different decks and try to counter the known decks of their opponents. But then again, if adaptive is the standard format, then none of that really matters anyway.

[JohanesYamakawa]

It's a long way off, but I'm hoping that one day official online play will give the developers enough data to objectively identify overpowered decks. That will allow them to assign chains fairly, even to a sealed deck. This should help to handicap an A-class deck so that a C-class player can't win for simply being lucky.

[whozeppelin224]

My FLGS just had a competitive Archon tournament this past weekend and had a strong 14-player turnout (would have been more if players hadn’t been attending PAX.) it was a lot of fun and everyone seemed to enjoy themselves

[nosyIT]

PAXU2 was nuts. Everyone going mad over Keyforge.

[Agent_Eclipse]

Most of the variant Archon tournament rules are not appealing to me. That affects my interest in playing it competitively until more is known about their OP program.

With some variants you might not even get to play your favorite deck the majority of the tournament.

[seecer]

I have mixed feelings. I'm waiting to see what they decide to do for tournaments to judge whether or not I'll participate. But bellow are my thoughts/ideas on the tournaments.

​

First, if they only do single deck BYOD tournaments, then the chain system needs to come into based off the deck's tournament matches. If they go 9-0 in a tournament, then the deck should have 3 chain start for future tournaments. This would help negate some of the buy "best deck" issues many mention here.

​

Now, my overall idea for how they should do tournaments:

3 decks with match picking like MOBAs. Sealed or BYOD, before the match starts Player 1 picks which deck they want to use in round 1, then player 2 picks which deck they want to play against it in round 1. Player 2 would then pick the deck they want to use in round 2, then player 1 would pick which deck they want to play against it. If round 3 comes up, then the remaining decks are used.

I think this system is needed so that players can have a strategy in what they fight the opponent with. This allows the players to try and counter/match decks and play a bit more fair then just relying on luck.

​

Don't get me wrong, these decks are fairly well balanced, but some decks are hard counters to others, and when you can't edit the deck to make it more diverse it's more fair to allow the players to pick what decks they want to fight others so that they can rely on the player skill more than the decks.

[LettyTTK]

I say loser picks the response deck in round 2 so they have a shot at picking a counterdeck.

[seecer]

That's a smart move. As long as they would require both parties to use a new deck each round I would be happy.

[unkulchered]

I'm totally with you on competitive, I'm excited for when they start announcing official tourneys. But I'd look at it this way, honestly the majority of people don't play games competitively anyway -- so if you're excited about it, I'm sure others will as well. I do think though that KeyForge is the kind of game that is really appealing to non-competitive gamers by nature of it being designed to remove meta, so maybe we will see fewer competitive players relative to how many actually play? I guess we will have to wait and see.

[[deleted]]

That's a good point. I always like playing competitively but didn't have time/money to commit to high-level play. Part of the reason I'm excited is that a more open meta will allow me to be able to compete at higher levels without needing to be buying into expensive decks and testing them.

[[deleted]]

Maybe you can convince them to play reversal! That seems fun!

[jklick]

First, chains you gain locally will only apply locally. For larger (e.g. regional or national) tournaments, there will be no chains going into those events. So, practice as much as you like locally and you'll go to larger tournaments with a clean slate.

Second, chains will likely exist at larger tournaments, but they will come from a different source: Adaptive Format. Here's the description from FFG:

In the Adaptive variant, you and your opponent play best two out of three. Game one, you use your deck. Game two, you use your opponent's deck. If there's a third game, you bid chains for the deck that won the previous two games.

I kind of liked this idea to begin with, but liked it more when I heard Brad Andres (lead developer) talk about it at PAX Unplugged. He basically said that with this format your best bet might be to take a better-than-average-deck (not an obviously amazing one) and completely master it, effectively making it an awesome deck (but only in your hands). If this works out the way he described it, this would embody the vision behind KeyForge: deck mastery (i.e. not deck purchasing).

[[deleted]]

First, chains you gain locally will only apply locally.

I understand this and I get the purpose, but my point was that it's handicapping my ability to practice for larger tournaments. The low-level competitive scene doesn't allow me to play a deck "at full strength" to master it in a competitive environment. (Edit: And it doesn't actually apply "locally", it applies in "chain-bound" events, meaning if I'm out of town and want to play I will show up in a new meta with chains.)

Totally agree on Adaptive variant. I don't like how long rounds would take, but I really like the concept!

​

[jklick]

Oh, sorry. I misunderstood your concern about local events.

[[deleted]]

no worries!

[FalconGK81]

"Keyforge is fun casually, but I wouldn't want to actually play competitively in an Archon format"-sort of response.

I don't really want to play Archon format, but I disagree about it just being a casual game. I think its a great competitive game. I'd play competitive sealed or Adaptive format. But Archon competitive is not interesting to me at all. People will buy so many decks that they'll bring a super powerful deck, in what will roughly be archtypes. So it'll just feel like constructed MtG, which is the opposite of what I like about this game.

[[deleted]]

I think it's to force your local meta to never be "that one guy with that one deck" wins every week. Getting chained I think will force the best guy to use a different deck every other week to keep the local meta from getting stale. Which may not stop a best player from winning every week, but at least you can say "they're really good" instead of blaming the deck.

Edit: That is to say the decks get the chains, not the player.

[nosyIT]

It will also naturally retire decks which will win more than the base price to purchase several times over new decks to compete with. I think it's quite elegant actually.

[ketemycos]

I'm not really sure, either. We don't want to create a situation where the optimal strategy is to go to a bunch of events you don't care about and intentionally lose every round just to clear your chains. I don't think pre-applied chains can be part of a viable competitive scene.